Upgrade to newer SCR/DEF emissions for a Gen 3 LNT (non-DEF) engine?

[MichaelOverfield]

Many of those "loss leaders" go to rental fleets and lessee's. People simply aren't buying bare bones vehicles these days, and won't until the next economic bust or gas crisis.

I'll concede that the profit margins on truck are higher, but that has as much to do with demand as anything else. If they weren't selling in droves the prices (and margins) would surely fall.

The only way most people can buy these super expensive vehicles is the new super long 84 month loans that have become standard on these very expensive vehicles. Remember the mortgage bubble bust in 2008? Well we are setting up a similar bust in these vehicle loans.. the economy takes a downturn, and people will default on that $1000/mo payment for an 84 month car loan in a hurry, and all investments tied to such loans will tank, and other sectors of the economy will suffer as well. The average incomes of people has not kept pace with costs on such things.

The cost of these new trucks keeps the price of used trucks very high as well. Now that is good if I was selling, but not good if I still need a truck and want to buy one, new or used. Just like housing costs. Here are some stories to make that case: https://www.ft.com/content/59f3a084-0d80-11ea-bb52-34c8d9dc6d84; https://www.debt.com/news/auto-loan-bubble/

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Many of those "loss leaders" go to rental fleets and lessee's. People simply aren't buying bare bones vehicles these days, and won't until the next economic bust or gas crisis.

I'll concede that the profit margins on truck are higher, but that has as much to do with demand as anything else. If they weren't selling in droves the prices (and margins) would surely fall.

Oh, one more thought.. I recently bought 3 Chevy Cruze Diesels for the family fleet, and combined they are less cost than ONE 3/4 or 1 Ton new Diesel truck.. I knew they were discounted because they are very high MPG, and I also realize the big vehicle profit margins are making those cars more affordable, I got them for just over $21K each on average.. and that is well equipped, not stripped (actually the Diesel only comes in the LT trim, so you can't get a stripped version). The base gas Cruze was about $15K, and that, adjusted for inflation is cheaper than my 1996 Saturn for $12.5K when new.

It is true there is DEMAND for the bigger vehicles, but the price is going up not because the manufactures can't meet the demands (limited supply), it's going up because they have to find a way to cover the costs that the CAFE and other Government standards impose on them, and the loss they take on smaller vehicles. They are also forced to offer these super long loan terms.. an 84 month loan was UNTHINKABLE a few years ago, but it's standard now on the more expensive vehicles.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

 

[Jim W]

Well, the days of delete are becoming more difficult.. we can thank the "rolling coal" crowd in some ways for that. The early 6.7 with the LNT / Bluetec system gets horrible MPG and has serious fuel dilution of the oil issues.. and it's a system that seriously limits the options for the operating pattern of the truck to keep it reliable. All that said, the newer SCR based systems have proven to be more reliable and are able to obtain much better MPG than the early SCR systems. While the "fix" had often been to do a delete, that might no longer be a viable option if faced with random roadside compliance inspections and serious hassles, fines, etc. I'm pretty sure any IMPROVEMENT on the original emissions system to make it better than stock is not going to get you in trouble with the EPA, realizing it won't be cheap, but cheaper than a new truck, for sure, and cheaper than a fine if caught with a delete. Has anyone heard of a way to install the newer, 2013 and newer SCR system on a 07.5 to 12 truck?

Mike, I don't think you can retrofit an early 6.7L Cummins with the newer emission compliance SCR system. Why? The early 6.7L engines (2007.5 to 2012) were not EPA tested with the SCR emission installed on them to meet the EPA standard in effect at the time, you will need to test that design. I also do not believe you have the deep pockets to afford the test cost of a rebuilt 6.7L engine with the SCR system installed.

Another Item the newer engines have a lot more sensors with more wiring installed on the newer 6.7L engines. If I remember correct the wiring harness on the engine to the ECM went from a 76 pin connector to a 96 pin connector. This was to allow for more sensor input into the ECM to control various systems on the engine.

Now it may be possible to purchase a complete engine with the SCR system and retrofit your truck if you are up to the task. I am not sure what it would take as far as cost, but it would be a lot of cutting and welding involved to do the retrofit. You would be better off to purchase a slightly used 6.7L truck with the SCR system install. The cost should be more inline as the truck has lost some of the initial value of being new.

 

[mpaulson]

Maybe keep an eye out for a low mile 2013 that you like and then sell the 2012. The cost difference might be allot less than the pain(serious if even realistically possible) retrofit plan.
Way too much electrical complexity to retrofit, and guaranteed gremlins to haunt you after.

 

[EDankievitch]

Maybe an aftermarket company like Gale Banks can figure it out. Give an older truck the performance an fuel economy of a deleted truck but make it run EPA clean. I’m betting it can be done. And done cost effective.
In another thread on here I wrote about a friend of a friend his family member that got busted in an EPA diesel truck spot check a few months back. The guy’s truck was deleted he got nailed missing the emissions stuff. While the truck has not been impounded he can’t drive it until it passes an EPA inspection. They are still trying to work out the fines. At first he was looking at well over $25k worth of violations. He is not happy. His wife is really not happy. All the money that was spent removing and tuners and it cannot be driven.
For those that didn’t see the thread apparently the EPA did a truck stop just outside of Philadelphia this past fall. They stopped all diesel trucks for inspection. Both large and small. For those with deleted trucks or if you puffed a bit of coal things got ugly $$$$. Here in southern NJ we don’t have diesel inspection yet. So the EPA was on a hunt for easy targets. They found them...

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Maybe an aftermarket company like Gale Banks can figure it out. Give an older truck the performance an fuel economy of a deleted truck but make it run EPA clean. I’m betting it can be done. And done cost effective.
In another thread on here I wrote about a friend of a friend his family member that got busted in an EPA diesel truck spot check a few months back. The guy’s truck was deleted he got nailed missing the emissions stuff. While the truck has not been impounded he can’t drive it until it passes an EPA inspection. They are still trying to work out the fines. At first he was looking at well over $25k worth of violations. He is not happy. His wife is really not happy. All the money that was spent removing and tuners and it cannot be driven.
For those that didn’t see the thread apparently the EPA did a truck stop just outside of Philadelphia this past fall. They stopped all diesel trucks for inspection. Both large and small. For those with deleted trucks or if you puffed a bit of coal things got ugly $$$$. Here in southern NJ we don’t have diesel inspection yet. So the EPA was on a hunt for easy targets. They found them...

Well said, and you and are are thinking alike! I agree it would be very expensive and difficult to make the changes, and the cost to do so for an individual owner might just not make any sense, but there has a been a SUBSTANTIAL market for the Deletes, and tunes, and it was all for "race only", and apparently many, many people "race" these trucks.. or NOT.. so if the people who were making money on delete kits and tunes could come up with a kit for a LEGAL and approved emissions upgrade to make the early trucks with the garbage emissions systems more reliable, cleaner and all round better, there could well be a market for that... With the new trucks crazy expensive, and even used trucks going for insane prices.. I can see a market opportunity here, with the Cummins engine in particular. Since the basic block, and many of the systems and overall geometry of the frame and under hood being little changed on these trucks over the years, the ability to do this might be less difficult than it would be for say a D-max, and certainly not happening for a Ford 6.4 engine. It is one thing that has made the Cummins engine so great, that it's basic components have withstood the test of time.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Mike, I don't think you can retrofit an early 6.7L Cummins with the newer emission compliance SCR system. Why? The early 6.7L engines (2007.5 to 2012) were not EPA tested with the SCR emission installed on them to meet the EPA standard in effect at the time, you will need to test that design. I also do not believe you have the deep pockets to afford the test cost of a rebuilt 6.7L engine with the SCR system installed.

Another Item the newer engines have a lot more sensors with more wiring installed on the newer 6.7L engines. If I remember correct the wiring harness on the engine to the ECM went from a 76 pin connector to a 96 pin connector. This was to allow for more sensor input into the ECM to control various systems on the engine.

Now it may be possible to purchase a complete engine with the SCR system and retrofit your truck if you are up to the task. I am not sure what it would take as far as cost, but it would be a lot of cutting and welding involved to do the retrofit. You would be better off to purchase a slightly used 6.7L truck with the SCR system install. The cost should be more inline as the truck has lost some of the initial value of being new.

Jim, good points, and yes, I realize it would not be easy.. in might require a complete new ECU, and wiring harness for sure. I have no issues with cutting and welding and other fabrication if needed. I realize the cost might be substantial, but compared to any newer truck, and even the difference in cost of selling mine, and moving to an newer used truck, I can see that being at least a $20K deal.. That can buy many parts, and I'm not counting in the cost of this idea the value of my time to do it, if I had to pay someone, there is no way I'd consider it, as it would for sure be too much.

Now if I can find a way, or better yet a supplier can work out such a system as a kit, get that approved and meet the EPA requirements, which are based on model year, so they would be given less difficult testing to pass than the 2013 and newer trucks have to pass with the same system, so it should be easy to get a passing test, and the ability to certify would not be an issue, other that the hassle and not doubt cost.. but from a individual effort.. if say I managed to figure this out, get all the parts and just do it... the chances of failing any mobile enforcement test with such a system would be about zero, as I'd have a truck with a system that exceeds the controls required for the model year, whether tested and certified or not. It just stands to reason that won't cause anyone who cares about the intent of the law to be concerned.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Maybe keep an eye out for a low mile 2013 that you like and then sell the 2012. The cost difference might be allot less than the pain(serious if even realistically possible) retrofit plan.
Way too much electrical complexity to retrofit, and guaranteed gremlins to haunt you after.

Totally understand, but the chances are slim that I can find a 2013 (or newer), manual, long bed, crew cab, 4x4 in in the condition that my 2009 is in with a mere 50K miles or so, with a South Bend dual disc clutch, custom G56 cooler set up, 45 Gal Aux fuel tank, Dual Alternators (yeah, I did the wiring to make that work, just as a fun project, I really don't need all 440Amps of juice, yet), I have considerable time and investment in the current truck, the emissions limitations are partly responsible for the low miles, I don't use it for short commute type drives, and it's almost only used for long road trips towing a trailer, under the conditions where the emissions system works fairly well, but I certainly would like to use it more often if I didn't have to worry about the known problems with the early emissions system. I also don't want to run the risk of a delete and a scenario where an inspection leads to big fines, etc. This brings me to the idea I propose here.

As to electrical gremlins.. well I seem to have dealt with plenty of those over the years, so they don't scare me too much, I certainly expect such a project as this to be a challenge, the Dual Alternator set up was a challenge for the wiring side of things, the mechanical was pretty easy, since the hardware on the newer trucks sold with that option was a bolt on deal, the block even had the needed tapped holes in place to use for the bracket. If you want an idea of electrical work for that project, here is a link to that thread. https://www.turbodieselregister.com/threads/dual-alternator-install.258449/page-4

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Just verified, the base long block engine is the same from all 6.7s up to 2019... at least I found one available that fit all years.. so I would not need to swap the engine itself, the exhaust, sensors, ECM and wiring for sure.. add a DEF tank, etc.. I think all that is possible, and it could be cost effective. Now if I could find a wrecked vehicle with usable parts.. that would be even better.

 

[AH64ID]

Possible, yes.

Cost effective, no.


I had a ton of mods and time into my 05, and it’s fine that’s it’s gone. Great truck, no doubt, but I don’t really miss it... despite how much I thought I would.


But if you’re dead set on keeping the current truck have you looked into a tune that leaves all the stock stuff in place but uses less EGR? The high EGR rate on the 07.5-12 is the main issue.

I know around here you could pass emissions with a different tune as testing locations only measure opacity.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Possible, yes.

Cost effective, no.


I had a ton of mods and time into my 05, and it’s fine that’s it’s gone. Great truck, no doubt, but I don’t really miss it... despite how much I thought I would.


But if you’re dead set on keeping the current truck have you looked into a tune that leaves all the stock stuff in place but uses less EGR? The high EGR rate on the 07.5-12 is the main issue.

I know around here you could pass emissions with a different tune as testing locations only measure opacity.

John, thanks for that. There is no test where I live, and I would not want to be putting out smoke in any case.. the EGR was the big issue, and on these trucks it could be unplugged and "solve" that problem, but that isn't legal, though it would pass that opacity test.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Found this on the EPA site, about modification for alternative fuels, so if that modification is OK, it's hard to imagine how a modification to a newer, better emissions control system would not be OK as well, and it would be basically the same system already certified in the newer trucks, which are running the same engine.. I put the important line in bold. Would a modification that affected emissions but in a POSITIVE way be prohibited?.. It seems unlikely that it would be.

"Alternative Fuel Conversions
Alternative fuel conversions involve modifications that enable vehicles or engines to run on different fuels than the ones for which they were designed and certified. It is generally a prohibited act to modify a certified vehicle or engine in a way that could affect emissions. However, a modification for the purpose of enabling a vehicle or engine to operate on a clean alternative fuel may not constitute tampering if the modifier:

• follows the manufacturer’s installation instructions AND
• properly installs an acceptable conversion system. To be acceptable, the system must comply with EPA conversion regulations

EPA regulations on clean alternative fuel conversions provide options for fuel converters to avoid a possible tampering violation when the vehicle or engine is changed from its original certified configuration to enable operation on the new fuel(s). A complete description of the Alternative Fuel Conversion program and links to the regulations.

NOTE: A testing exemption may be available to cover vehicles and engines that are modified to demonstrate compliance with EPA conversion regulations, or for other testing purposes. Such modification does not constitute tampering if the converter first obtains an EPA testing exemption. For information on how to obtain an EPA testing exemption, please:"

 

[Jim W]

Mike, I am using a Smarty S67 set on CatCHER level 3, ME23 software with no smoke being exhibit. I have ran thus way since 2009 without any black smoke. I am just saying that this can be done with a Smarty tuner. All of the newer Smarty tuners are now EPA compliant so, they can be used on your truck if you wanted to be legal.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Mike, I am using a Smarty S67 set on CatCHER level 3, ME23 software with no smoke being exhibit. I have ran thus way since 2009 without any black smoke. I am just saying that this can be done with a Smarty tuner. All of the newer Smarty tuners are now EPA compliant so, they can be used on your truck if you wanted to be legal.

Jim,
The problem I'd like to solve is the low MPG, fuel dilution of the oil, and generally limited use of the truck, since that system really doesn't work well unless you make long highway drives, and under some significant load, and not in low temperatures. For comparison, I have 2015-2018 Cruze Diesels that have the newer SCR system, it works significantly better than the LNT (non-DEF) system. A regen on my truck is at least 30 minutes, and that is all highway, no interruptions like a long downhill that will shut off the regen because it can't keep the temperature.. the Cruzes regen at most around 20 minutes. They really rushed to get this system on these trucks before it was ready. I don't want to delete and be non-compliant, but I also would like a system without all the problems, and I'm not ready to go out and get a $70K new truck or even a $40K used truck and take a hit on at least $20K on the cost difference, only to have another project to get any new truck up to my standards. The emissions system on mine has only been able to not be a major headache, because I drive it so infrequently, but I have seen rising oil level, even with mostly highway miles. It is a 2009 with less than 55,000 original miles.. you can see I don't drive it very often, and most of those miles are highway pulling a trailer.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Interesting.. there are retrofit systems out there for the pre-2007 engines, and I found a place that does them.. many are school busses, and many of those also run the Cummins B series engine.. I sent an inquiry and got a reply. I sent a separate inquiry to McCray Enterprises, and will try to call tomorrow. If it can be done, I'll get an estimate and post that for all to see. As it turns out, CA is requiring even the older pre-emissions Diesels to be upgraded, and as such there is a market for emissions upgrades there, and with volume costs should be driven down.. maybe this idea is not so crazy as it might have first appeared to be.

http://www.dieselpollutionsolutions.com/emission-retrofits/

“Michael,

Yes, I have a company I have been working with, McCray Enterprises in San Bernardino, CA call and ask for Rick McCray. 909-381-1964”

Thank you
Nozzle_clean_23-4
Tom Comeau
Diesel Pollution Solutions Inc.
Home of CLEANDPF.COM
760-525-9435 Office
760-518-1617 Cell”

 

[AH64ID]

Only pre-emissions trucks with a GVWR above 14K are required to be upgraded. There isn’t a GVWR that high in our platform.

I only briefly looked, but I didn’t see SCR mentioned on their site only DPF.

 

[MichaelOverfield]

If there was only a way to contact Cummins.. because they apparently make a modular system... but no way to reaching them on the site. https://www.cummins.com/components/aftertreatment/modular-aftertreatment-system

 

[MichaelOverfield]

Only pre-emissions trucks with a GVWR above 14K are required to be upgraded. There isn’t a GVWR that high in our platform.

I only briefly looked, but I didn’t see SCR mentioned on their site only DPF.

The systems now all need SCR to comply with the current standards, the Cummins system is SCR. If it will work for a larger engine/vehicle, one would think it would work for a 10K vehicle as well, actually with a max tow capacity, I'd be over 14K, as that would be a 7K trailer to get 14k, and certainly have a higher tow rating than that. I would think such a system would be sized about right.

 

[AH64ID]

The systems now all need SCR to comply with the current standards, the Cummins system is SCR. If it will work for a larger engine/vehicle, one would think it would work for a 10K vehicle as well, actually with a max tow capacity, I'd be over 14K, as that would be a 7K trailer to get 14k, and certainly have a higher tow rating than that. I would think such a system would be sized about right.

The 14K is GVWR not GCWR. Your GCWR is already above 20K, but only GVWR is used for emissions reasons.

Yes modern specs are met with SCR, but it’s not mentioned on their site. They do talk about adding a DPF.

I’m curious what they tell you about retrofitting your truck.