2021 RAM 3500 purchase on hold.

[Beach Bomb]

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/engine/what-is-cp4-failure

 

[TFucili]

https://www.ramforum.com/threads/2020-ram-2500-cp-4-failure.161696/

 

[TFucili]

https://hdrams.com/forum/index.php?threads/fuel-system-failure.1183/post-32717

 

[TFucili]

https://hdrams.com/forum/index.php?...ny-issues-with-the-new-hds-yet.317/post-37300

Sorry if any are duplicates. There have been plenty more that get buried as time goes on. The search function on some forums is not the greatest.

 

[cerberusiam]

No one in their right mind leaves a $70k truck sitting on the side of the road. The chances of actually seeing one broke down are pretty small as most get pulled off and parked before it quits completely, or, it is on a roll back going to the dealer.

The fact that one can go ANY forum dedicated to the Ram\Diesel that has a fair amount of traffic and find several threads on the exact problem is an indication it is a bigger problem than anyone really wants to acknowledge. Considering the readership on all the Ram forums probably does not exceed 5% of total ownership makes it a small, small world to draw examples from.

The updated pump may very well have fixes for the immediate problem in addition to the published NVH fix. We will never know that as that would constitute acknowledging a design failure. Filtration and WS still seems to be an issue on the newer trucks, especially with the CP-4, but it is rare to even seen that parallel drawn anymore.

 

[Jim W]

Regarding the TDI, you are luckier that many. The original investigation of the CP4 started with the VW and was expanded to include the Ford trucks. GM could no longer stand the pain and switched to Denso pumps. Wonder why Cummins did not choose the Denso pumps, cost?

SnoKing, why do you say that I am luckier than most. Do you own a TDI with a CP4 fuel pump or any vehicle with a CP4 pump installed? Or did you read this on the internet so, it must be true!!!!!

VW, has so, much faith in the CP4 fuel pump that they have extended the warranty on my wife's Jetta. The warranty period is to 120,000 miles/10 years from date of purchase which ever comes first.

My older son's Golf a 2012, TDI was traded in at 99,000 miles with no CP4 fuel pump issue. The reason for the traded in was VW paid him almost what he purchased the car for in 2013. This was for the-buy back program on diesel emission. His drive to and from Chicago is 150 miles a day so, he needs a fuel-efficient car.

 

[endoscott]

What kind of engineering supports a design that, when it DOES fail, is completely catastrophic! At least design some kind of downstream filtration in the event of failure. If it was really RARE there would not be any class-actions. Lawyers don't take cases they are not going to win and make a lot of $$. One of these cp-4 posts claims to have evidence of 7% failure with American fuel VS 1% with European fuel. No idea if its valid information. I bet FCA knows though. And to my way of thinking more of these are likely to fail over time. Maybe MANY will fail by 150,000 miles. Maybe MOST will fail by 300,000. And this idea of "only buy clean fuel", well we pull a fiver all over "roads less traveled", ain't that the point of a big-ass truck? Its ridiculous to think we can only buy clean fuel or risk a $15,000 pump failure. I was gonna buy a 2021, but now I decided to keep my 2014 indefinitely. It runs great. Yeah, there will be things like NOX sensors to fix. But not likely a blown up fuel system.

 

[Beach Bomb]

SnoKing, why do you say that I am luckier than most. Do you own a TDI with a CP4 fuel pump or any vehicle with a CP4 pump installed? Or did you read this on the internet so, it must be true!!!!!

VW, has so, much faith in the CP4 fuel pump that they have extended the warranty on my wife's Jetta. The warranty period is to 120,000 miles/10 years from date of purchase which ever comes first.

My older son's Golf a 2012, TDI was traded in at 99,000 miles with no CP4 fuel pump issue. The reason for the traded in was VW paid him almost what he purchased the car for in 2013. This was for the-buy back program on diesel emission. His drive to and from Chicago is 150 miles a day so, he needs a fuel-efficient car.

Well I don’t plan on buy a VW!!!!! Back to the ram, I’m sure the CP4 Is being used for EPA reasons and the lack of a better choice at this point in time. what’s worse not making ram trucks or fixing 7% until they’re out of warranty? No thanks I’ll sit on the sidelines this time.

 

[Jim W]

What kind of engineering supports a design that, when it DOES fail, is completely catastrophic! At least design some kind of downstream filtration in the event of failure. If it was really RARE there would not be any class-actions. Lawyers don't take cases they are not going to win and make a lot of $$. One of these cp-4 posts claims to have evidence of 7% failure with American fuel VS 1% with European fuel. No idea if its valid information. I bet FCA knows though. And to my way of thinking more of these are likely to fail over time. Maybe MANY will fail by 150,000 miles. Maybe MOST will fail by 300,000. And this idea of "only buy clean fuel", well we pull a fiver all over "roads less traveled", ain't that the point of a big-ass truck? Its ridiculous to think we can only buy clean fuel or risk a $15,000 pump failure. I was gonna buy a 2021, but now I decided to keep my 2014 indefinitely. It runs great. Yeah, there will be things like NOX sensors to fix. But not likely a blown up fuel system.

I do not know if you have any experience in designing fuel system of a high pressure design say 20,000 PSI+ and above! With the CP4 fuel delivery pressure being higher than that. I don't think there is a filter available today to with stand that pressure.

When I was design hydraulic systems of 5,000 PSI on mining machines, we could never find a filter that would stand that much pressure. The only thing that would withstand that pressure was a 200 micron steel screen, with the screen assembly and manifold weighing close to 100 lbs. each.

Everyone thinks FCA is responsible for the choice of a fuel pump on a Cummins engine, will they are not. It was Cummins who picked the CP4 pump for the latest 6.7L engine to meet the high pressure fuel delivery requirements. This pump is being used across the board on all 6.7L CGI engines being built by Cummins now.

I would not believe everything that is stated by bottom feeders (lawyers) in a lawsuit. The way it works today in the courts and social media is you can state anything you like as fact. It is up to the party in the lawsuit being sued or who is being slander on social medial to prove them wrong.

 

[endoscott]

I do not know if you have any experience in designing fuel system of a high pressure design say 20,000 PSI+ and above! With the CP4 fuel delivery pressure being higher than that. I don't think there is a filter available today to with stand that pressure.

When I was design hydraulic systems of 5,000 PSI on mining machines, we could never find a filter that would stand that much pressure. The only thing that would withstand that pressure was a 200 micron steel screen, with the screen assembly and manifold weighing close to 100 lbs. each. "]

Point taken Jim, I dont know jack s--- about fluid dynamics but I know its complex. All my repairs so far on the '14 have been the $1000 ones, several, plus the latest was a turbo actual which dealer told me was around $3000, all of those under Maxcare. Even after warranty is up I think I can afford things like head gaskets and water pumps, even a complete turbo or other major repair maybe at some point. But I just dont want to take the risk on one of these new trucks...yet. Both safety if it were to blow up while towing, as well as the expense and down time. Maybe 2022 or 23, lets see how things look in a couple years and the cp4 improvements. My old 2003 HO with manual trans is still apparently bulletproof, son drives it pretty hard. Maybe the '14 is a good model year we shall see. I only have 75,000 miles on it so far. Max care runs thru 2021.

 

[R.Taylor]

"When I was design hydraulic systems of 5,000 PSI on mining machines, we could never find a filter that would stand that much pressure. The only thing that would withstand that pressure was a 200 micron steel screen, with the screen assembly and manifold weighing close to 100 lbs. each."

How many GPM? That's the difference... The CP4.2 is not pushing anything volume wise near a hydraulic pump. Sure, Volume and pressure need a strong enough filter and an equally beefy housing but when were taking about 27k psi @ 200cc/min max.....that's a big difference. Look how tiny the HP side that feeds the rail is... 1/4" at max? I think an inline HP side sintered bronze ball filter would catch enough debris to limit damage to the pump only and plug it up enough during a pump failure to cause a shutdown without having debris make it to the injectors. Rail pressure sensor could see a rise in pressure and start the derate / shutdown process.... Not rocket science here.

 

[TFucili]

The damage can be mitigated with something like this

https://ssdiesel.com/6-7l-ford-power-stroke-cp4-fail-safe-kit/

The Denso HP4 seems to have been a step in the right direction for GM, and it has slipper style followers so there is no worry of the roller getting out of square and skidding on the cam.

The CP4 is just a bad design.

 

[AKDoug]

32,000 on my 2019. Lots of cold weather starts and heavy towing. No issues. I also double filter my fuel. I buy fuel in bulk. I fill my trucks from my bulk tank that has a water block filter and a 2 micron particulate filter (Cim-Tek). Sometimes it's even better than that since I fuel from my slip tank most of the time, so the fuel is filtered again before it goes in my truck.

 

[Wiredawg]

No one in their right mind leaves a $70k truck sitting on the side of the road. The chances of actually seeing one broke down are pretty small as most get pulled off and parked before it quits completely, or, it is on a roll back going to the dealer.

The fact that one can go ANY forum dedicated to the Ram\Diesel that has a fair amount of traffic and find several threads on the exact problem is an indication it is a bigger problem than anyone really wants to acknowledge. Considering the readership on all the Ram forums probably does not exceed 5% of total ownership makes it a small, small world to draw examples from.

The updated pump may very well have fixes for the immediate problem in addition to the published NVH fix. We will never know that as that would constitute acknowledging a design failure. Filtration and WS still seems to be an issue on the newer trucks, especially with the CP-4, but it is rare to even seen that parallel drawn anymore.

I think I would see at least one. Not saying the would be abandoned on the side of the road, but they would be there a while. I've been running generators up and down I-10 for the past month and see literally 100s of 3500 HDs, 4500s/5500s and F450s/F550s hauling real heavy refininery, oil field, and CRAZY carahulers with 5 cars dual tandem axles not a single breakdown observered, a few flat tires. I'm not syaing there isn't a problem, there just aren't signs of it being reparted around here and the Ram dealers are selling HDs and C&Cs like crazy.

I get some time, I may as my Ram service writer for 20 years to see what he says and I'll report back honestly. Again, I would buy one in a heartbeat!

 

[SnoKing]

Talked to a guy at a fuel stop at Wildhouse Casino, in Oregon yesterday. His had fairly new Ford F450 with a gooseneck trailer that appear to be loaded with welding equipment. At least the gables on top of the load looked like welding cables. It looked pretty heavy, however was only mid profile. I asked what kind of mileage his was getting, and he laughed and said 4 MPG or slightly less. I said you should have a RAM, you would get 8-9 MPG, and he said my personal vehicle is a RAM 2500. He passed me a hour or so later, I was doing 63 and he about 65. I should have asked him his combined weight.

 

[Beach Bomb]

Interesting video.
Now the big question Would this void my warranty?

 

[Jim W]

No, it would not void the warranty of your truck! But it will lighten your wallet and only you can determine if this attachment is for you!

 

[SnoKing]

Talked to a guy at a fuel stop at Wildhouse Casino, in Oregon yesterday. His had fairly new Ford F450 with a gooseneck trailer that appear to be loaded with welding equipment. At least the gables on top of the load looked like welding cables. It looked pretty heavy, however was only mid profile. I asked what kind of mileage his was getting, and he laughed and said 4 MPG or slightly less. I said you should have a RAM, you would get 8-9 MPG, and he said my personal vehicle is a RAM 2500. He passed me a hour or so later, I was doing 63 and he about 65. I should have asked him his combined weight.

View attachment 124213

We got through the Salt Like City today and had mileage up to 12.7 towing the travel trailer, then we had strong head winds down to Fillmore, Ut and saw the lie-o-meter drop to the low 8's. Took Highway 20 over the bump to Highway 89 and South to Mt Carmel RV. Lie-o-meter was back in the low 10's. We will fuel up in Page, Az tomorrow'

 

[Cummins12V98]

Not even October and you are headed South???

 

[Beach Bomb]

"I’ve been reading about several cases on other forums"

Cut and paste them please. Out of over 300k+ 2019, 2020+ RAM CP4 trucks sold..... A dozen failures perhaps out there? 0.01% of 300k is 30 vehicles. I've only heard of 3 actual failures. Not cheerleading for the CP4 but like I said...... I would not loose sleep over it. My wife's 2014 Audi Q5 TDI has 90k miles on it's CP4.1 pump... And she fuels up where ever diesel is sold AND does not add any OptiLube or additive. I'd like to hear about more or these "failures" on the other RAM sites... Please.

https://hdrams.com/forum/index.php?threads/fuel-system-failure.1183/page-2. Post number 26
This may be rare but it’s happening. I just don’t wanna be one of the unlucky ones, looks like a miserable experience.