19+ Oil Grade selection... not a brand war

[Diesel Gunner]

Ipennock is correct. About the only drawback that I can see in using 15W40 in any engine that specs a lower vis is a fuel economy penalty. In a lawn mower? It's nothing. In your truck over the life of the engine it is a lot of dollars. Engine manufacturers don't go through the trouble of determining oil viscosities for ambient temperatures just to create employment.

Remember when we used to take the air pumps off of our smogged out 70's cars and were sure that they ran better? Yea. back then I thought I was smarter than the engineers that designed the systems, too.

 

[JR]

Remember when we used to take the air pumps off of our smogged out 70's cars and were sure that they ran better?

Hey now! It netted AT LEAST .05 hp increase on this guy when that stuff fell off

 

[brucejohnson]

Since I have always used 15w-40 conventional in all my older diesel vehicles, I see no reason to change.

So what would happen if I bought a 19 up Cummins and ran the 15-40 Signature series aside from getting slightly less MPG?

According to the TSB it can cause deposits in the lifters and cause them to get noisy and possibly fail.

Like AH64ID, the TSB and owner's manual said:

TSB NUMBER: 09-011-20:

CAUTION! 15W-40 grade oil CAN NOT be used in any 2019 model year or newer 6.7L equipped vehicles due to the new designed valve train of this engine. If this oil is used, it will cause deposits to form in the Hydraulic Valve Lash Adjusters leading to undesirable noise, and/or engine damage.
​

To keep my warranty, truck and wallet happy I will choose following manufactures recommendation.

 

[AH64ID]

Ipennock is correct.

Which makes sense, but as I mentioned it didn't work that way for me. It was not a fluke either, but a repeatable thing. The thicker oil ran cooler and held pressure better (likely to being cooler).

 

[SSage]

10w30 Delvac Extreme is getting more common around here. I was wondering what ran that stuff.

 

[Diesel Gunner]

Which makes sense, but as I mentioned it didn't work that way for me. It was not a fluke either, but a repeatable thing. The thicker oil ran cooler and held pressure better (likely to being cooler).

I would not dispute your results. Sometimes it’s like rifles. Two that are the same exact models and calibers and one shoots flys at a thousand yards with one brand of ammo. The other can’t hit the dirt with three shots with that ammo. Go figure?

 

[JR]

10w30 Delvac Extreme is getting more common around here. I was wondering what ran that stuff.

Powerstrokes have also been running 10w30 dating back to the 6.0.

 

[NIsaacs]

Like AH64ID, the TSB and owner's manual said:

TSB NUMBER: 09-011-20:

CAUTION! 15W-40 grade oil CAN NOT be used in any 2019 model year or newer 6.7L equipped vehicles due to the new designed valve train of this engine. If this oil is used, it will cause deposits to form in the Hydraulic Valve Lash Adjusters leading to undesirable noise, and/or engine damage.
​

To keep my warranty, truck and wallet happy I will choose following manufactures recommendation.

Just to be clear.

My above quote, is the first half of a two part sentence and suggests I might be irresponsible. It is in reference to only my old vehicles.

The second half of my sentence structure is this:

" Since I am not oil smart, I just went with what was recommended for my '21. Valvoline Premium Blue 10w-30 synthetic blend."

 

[Killer223]

While that makes sense @lpennock I noticed the opposite on my 05. The thicker oil ran cooler and maintained better pressure. Both were 15w-40 thou, just slight differences in the 100°C viscosity.

These temps and pressures that you see. Was the higher temps observed out of range for the oil?
as for the pressures. just because it's lower pressures from a thinner oil don't mean it was protecting any less. one would have to have higher pressure to pump the thicker oil the same amounts as the thinner oil. so really don't see how those observations would negatively impact the engine. unless the temp of the oil was out of spec/range for the oil.

 

[AH64ID]

These temps and pressures that you see. Was the higher temps observed out of range for the oil?
as for the pressures. just because it's lower pressures from a thinner oil don't mean it was protecting any less. one would have to have higher pressure to pump the thicker oil the same amounts as the thinner oil. so really don't see how those observations would negatively impact the engine. unless the temp of the oil was out of spec/range for the oil.

Nothing was out of spec on either, both we’re well above minimum pressure at their highest observed temps. Just an observation from one 15w-40 to another, thicker, 15w-40.

The difference at 100°C was 15.0 vs 15.6. The range for a 40wt is 12.5-16.3.

It was only after long grades with 80-100% power that the difference was noticeable, and a difference is all it was. Nothing wrong with either or the job they did. I preferred to see the oil cooler, but that’s about it. It simply made me wonder if 30wt would run hotter and thinner under load and really the only reason I brought it up.

 

[AH64ID]

Powerstrokes have also been running 10w30 dating back to the 6.0.

The current 6.7 tells you to use 5w-40 for severe duty service, and the powerstoke doesn’t go as long on oil either. 2200-10000 miles based on usage.

Does make you wonder a little.

It also appears to not care nearly as much about oil as the 19+ Cummins.

• (1) For severe duty service, use SAE 5W-40 API CK-4.
• (2) For biodiesel fuel blends (B20 max), use SAE 5W-40 or SAE 15W-40 API CK-4.

 

[brucejohnson]

Just to be clear.

My above quote, is the first half of a two part sentence and suggests I might be irresponsible. It is in reference to only my old vehicles.

The second half of my sentence structure is this:

" Since I am not oil smart, I just went with what was recommended for my '21. Valvoline Premium Blue 10w-30 synthetic blend."

Nick, your post was definitively clear throughout. As a detail reader, I chose the particular snippets as examples for those who don't fully read articles and scan only for key words or have been challenged by the Evelyn Wood's Speed Reading Course, (showing my age) thereby missing those little important details.

 

[EDankievitch]

Fuel economy has been the driving force in the trend to go with thinner lube oils. As bearing finishing has improved and clearances have tightened the thinner oils can be used with great success. It has nothing to do with the cam. What does effect the cam, or in the case of the older flat tappet cam engines is zinc. Flat tappet cam engines both gas or diesel require zinc in the oil cocktail. However the Zinc much like Led in our old gas will over time contaminate the Emissions system. The EPA has pushed to remove zinc from lube oils to prevent the contamination of the emissions systems forcing engine manufacturers to switch to roller cams. That said can you run older lube with zinc in a newer engine? You need to check with the engine builder. EMD engines use silver lined bearings and the zinc will react with them and Damage them. I don’t know if Cummins has adopted the same technology in their engines. Best advice run what the manual says to use and enjoy life. Cummins, Ford, GMC spend millions in testing and design of their products. I’m betting they know what works and what don’t.

 

[gsbrockman]

Nick, your post was definitively clear throughout. As a detail reader, I chose the particular snippets as examples for those who don't fully read articles and scan only for key words or have been challenged by the Evelyn Wood's Speed Reading Course, (showing my age) thereby missing those little important details.

Yeppppp, @NIsaacs

Even this ol’ hilllllbilllleeeeeee understood what you meant...perfectly.

 

[Tuesdak]

Deposits? I believe we need a little better information on why a 15W-X is making/allowing deposits in 2019+ engines where a synthetic 5W-X isn't. Is it the word synthetic? A casual search doesn't turn up any 5W-40 Conventional Diesel oil.

This TSB appears to also update older 2018 on down to "Require" rather than "recommend" 5W-40 Synthetic oil below 0F. My 2018 Owners manual has "Recommend" in it rather than require. I can't imagine this synthetic expense, higher TCO, is going to go over well with fleet managers.

Related ... Perhaps my selling dealer switched to all diesels get 10W-30 so it's un-possible to screw up a 2019+ Cummins. Unexpected finding with UOA, but, this is why I spend the money on them. It's possible the dealer oil sheared down or (unlikely) is contaminated with Biodiesel from an unlabeled diesel pump here.

It may be a good idea to run the 5W-40 synthetic option on the 2019+ if you have to use higher Biodiesel blends than 5% due to: availability, new laws mandating higher %, whatever. @AH64ID I suggest this is why FORD note (2) has "use" higher weight oil for B20.

I do know UOA does not show Biodiesel as fuel contamination (Rather it can show the loss of viscosity from Biodiesel in the oil), but, I avoid high % of Biodiesel anymore after my past bad luck with it. When adding Diesel one should read the labels on the pump as this one claims 5% or less Biodiesel.




The two UOA in red were my selling dealer oil changes, one free from FCA. FYI Mobil Delvac 15W40 is the 22,031 mile oil sample. I do not recommend switching brands when doing UOA trending. Due to unavailable Shell T6 I am forced to switch, yet again, where Mobil would have been the odd one out. Low miles on oil due to 6 month oil change requirement on my 2018. I did like the low wear numbers on the T6 combined with engine likely broken in now.

This is what the dealer paperwork said was supposed to be used...

 

[Signal73]

I am currently running the T6 5W/40 in my 2019. I run it because of the wider temperature operating range. I’ve been reading the back and fourth for the last 2.5 years of ownership weather to run the 10W/30 or the 5W/40 and nothing I have read so far has made me want to switch. I only change my oil once a year and according to the oil and fuel filter life monitor I still have about 50% of its life remaining when the year is up. It is not my daily driver, I use it for towing my camper or equipment trailer, and driving to go sightseeing, etc during our camping trips. On the occasion I need to pick up something that can’t fit in my car it will come out of the garage for that as well, as long as there is no salt on the roads!

 

[Ozymandias]

I am currently running the T6 5W/40 in my 2019. I run it because of the wider temperature operating range. I’ve been reading the back and fourth for the last 2.5 years of ownership weather to run the 10W/30 or the 5W/40 and nothing I have read so far has made me want to switch. I only change my oil once a year and according to the oil and fuel filter life monitor I still have about 50% of its life remaining when the year is up. It is not my daily driver, I use it for towing my camper or equipment trailer, and driving to go sightseeing, etc during our camping trips. On the occasion I need to pick up something that can’t fit in my car it will come out of the garage for that as well, as long as there is no salt on the roads!

Well - 5/40 is the one that Ram and Cummins recommend to run under ANY climate conditions.
10/30 is recommended ONLY for a more average climate without any extrem cold or extrem hot seasons.

 

[AH64ID]

Deposits? I believe we need a little better information on why a 15W-X is making/allowing deposits in 2019+ engines where a synthetic 5W-X isn't. Is it the word synthetic? A casual search doesn't turn up any 5W-40 Conventional Diesel oil.

This TSB appears to also update older 2018 on down to "Require" rather than "recommend" 5W-40 Synthetic oil below 0F. My 2018 Owners manual has "Recommend" in it rather than require. I can't imagine this synthetic expense, higher TCO, is going to go over well with fleet managers.

I have not ever seen conventional 5w-40 diesel oil, but I have been able to find a few conventional 10w-30 CK-4 oils.

While the 2018 Owners manual does say recommend there is also a caution about failing to use 5w-40 below 0°F and the Viscosity chart doesn't show 15w-40 below 0°F. My take is that nothing has changed other than the person who wrote the manual vs TSB. Even the 2022 manual states recommend and it's dated after the TSB that says require.

Ram allows 15w-40 down to 0°F while Ford only allows it down to 20°F.

My 05 and 18 both got a year round diet of full synthetic 15w-40. It's cold weather performance was on par with many 5w-40's so I didn't bother using anything else.

Well - 5/40 is the one that Ram and Cummins recommend to run under ANY climate conditions.
10/30 is recommended ONLY for a more average climate without any extrem cold or extrem hot seasons.

Where is it not recommended to run 10w-30 in extreme heat?

The chart doesn't appear to be in the 2022 manual, but I found it in the 2019 manual.

 

[Diesel Gunner]

Deposits? I believe we need a little better information on why a 15W-X is making/allowing deposits in 2019+ engines where a synthetic 5W-X isn't. Is it the word synthetic? A casual search doesn't turn up any 5W-40 Conventional Diesel oil.

This TSB appears to also update older 2018 on down to "Require" rather than "recommend" 5W-40 Synthetic oil below 0F. My 2018 Owners manual has "Recommend" in it rather than require. I can't imagine this synthetic expense, higher TCO, is going to go over well with fleet managers.

Related ... Perhaps my selling dealer switched to all diesels get 10W-30 so it's un-possible to screw up a 2019+ Cummins. Unexpected finding with UOA, but, this is why I spend the money on them. It's possible the dealer oil sheared down or (unlikely) is contaminated with Biodiesel from an unlabeled diesel pump here.

It may be a good idea to run the 5W-40 synthetic option on the 2019+ if you have to use higher Biodiesel blends than 5% due to: availability, new laws mandating higher %, whatever. @AH64ID I suggest this is why FORD note (2) has "use" higher weight oil for B20.

I do know UOA does not show Biodiesel as fuel contamination (Rather it can show the loss of viscosity from Biodiesel in the oil), but, I avoid high % of Biodiesel anymore after my past bad luck with it. When adding Diesel one should read the labels on the pump as this one claims 5% or less Biodiesel.

View attachment 132158


The two UOA in red were my selling dealer oil changes, one free from FCA. FYI Mobil Delvac 15W40 is the 22,031 mile oil sample. I do not recommend switching brands when doing UOA trending. Due to unavailable Shell T6 I am forced to switch, yet again, where Mobil would have been the odd one out. Low miles on oil due to 6 month oil change requirement on my 2018. I did like the low wear numbers on the T6 combined with engine likely broken in now.

View attachment 132156


View attachment 132155

This is what the dealer paperwork said was supposed to be used...


View attachment 132157

2018 Units and they are using CJ-4?

Why is copper and silicon trending upward? Are the sample dates in the same general time frame?

Just curious.

 

[AH64ID]

2018 Units and they are using CJ-4?

Transition period from CJ to CK. The owners manual in 2018 had a few places where CK replaced CJ, but not in all.

Technically the engine only required CJ oil, but the 19+ require CK.

The improvements from CJ to CK may be another reason that 10w-30 is in the mix for Cummins. It has a number of improvements that allow a thinner oil.