Diagnosing clunks and looseness in front suspension after service...

[verk]

I installed 3" Thuren soft coils along along with Bilstein B8 5100 shocks last year in an attempt to soften the ride in the front of my truck. Perhaps 5100 not the best choice for soft, but I'm inquiring about something else. I just picked up truck now with 200k from service center who installed new EMF ball-joints per my direction as I could tell the uppers were starting to let go ( Raybestos daily driver ball joints replaced original at 105k ). Service center also tightened one spindle nut of Spyntec free spin hubs that I also installed at 105k and recently serviced ( replaced bearing one side, greased both sides ). The first odd thing is that I myself have already had to tighten spindle nuts since servicing hubs recently. The dual nut with tab washer prevents any movement so either bearing races weren't seated or something else is going on here ? But the real question is that along with more travel in front suspension I feel like I also have more clunk and looseness over bumps and pot holes. It's as if some bumps and potholes create a vibration or oscillation that lasts a little longer than normal while others go away like I have air ride. Steering is fine and truck handles surprisingly well. Service center said the rest of front-end and steering appear good which is surprising as it's all original, but I'm not going to argue with a good shop that says it's all good. I'm firstly wondering about track bar and how much this might help with the clunk and looseness ? Next thing I'm wondering about is bushings. The shop mentioned looking for wear here as my notes made mention of it, but thought the bushings ok. They did adjust the lower control cams as part of the alignment I think I heard him say. 285/75R17 at about 55psi front & 35psi rear so I don't think I'm running too high pressures. I'm really out of my element here as far as experience. Appreciate any insights.

Sven

 

[Darkbloodmon]

If everything is tight and true I wouldn't loose sleep over it. When I do part installations I keep a record and try to do them one at a time or one system at a time. It allows me to compare my base line for normal operation before and after the installation, also helps me filter out any placebos.

FWIW I daily my 03 (stock height, 4x4, 265/70/17, 55F/45R) and hit some pretty nasty intercity potholes with it on my commute to work. My Track bar is still original at 250K I did install a synergy T Link, EMF joints, and Suspension Maxx Sway links with energy sus. bushings on the bar frame mount. I'm also running Spyntech hubs.

 

[verk]

Thanks for comments. The amplification of road imperfections seemed to happen after 3" longer "soft coils" and front shocks. So either the combination of spring and shock as installed or the raising of the front without additional suspension modifications explains the amplification. It could also be that soft ride coils really don't help in this regard as much as people say they do.

 

[Ozymandias]

Every lift changes the ride, no matter what.

 

[AEdelheit]

Thanks for comments. The amplification of road imperfections seemed to happen after 3" longer "soft coils" and front shocks. So either the combination of spring and shock as installed or the raising of the front without additional suspension modifications explains the amplification. It could also be that soft ride coils really don't help in this regard as much as people say they do.

The soft ride coils do work great but there are a lot of supporting components to go with them. The control arms and track bar are now at a steeper angle which is why upgrading the track bar is strongly recommended , the control arm have to move the axle forward as the suspension compresses so and the stock control arms are really on the short side with the 3" coils. Did you get the correct Bilstiens for those coils? If not the valving is way off and likely decreasing ride quality.

 

[verk]

The soft ride coils do work great but there are a lot of supporting components to go with them. The control arms and track bar are now at a steeper angle which is why upgrading the track bar is strongly recommended , the control arm have to move the axle forward as the suspension compresses so and the stock control arms are really on the short side with the 3" coils. Did you get the correct Bilstiens for those coils? If not the valving is way off and likely decreasing ride quality.

Similar to thoughts from the mechanic. He suggested track bar first to see if enough. Bilstein B8 5100 are correct geometry although the valving is a little stiffer than suggested by Thuren. I guess I'm learning that softer ride isn't just about springs and shocks, but there was also the issue of cost as trackbar, control arms, etc all seemed to add up very quickly. Thanks for answering.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Side query: Would a long arm control arm kit that relocates the control arms for better travel arc be better in terms of geometry than just adding coils and shocks for a lift?

I was considering at some point a Synergy Long arm kit, it can be run at stock height, leveled, or lifted.

 

[Ozymandias]

Absolutely, Longarm is a whole different animal. They work much better, and Ram learned it and made the 4th Gen 2012 or so upgrade with them from factory.
But there is no way back once installed as you usually have to cut the frame brackets for that.

 

[Ozymandias]

With stock height there is no benefit from the Longarms as the factory are pretty much level to.

 

[AEdelheit]

Side query: Would a long arm control arm kit that relocates the control arms for better travel arc be better in terms of geometry than just adding coils and shocks for a lift?

I was considering at some point a Synergy Long arm kit, it can be run at stock height, leveled, or lifted.

As Ozy said at stock height long arms wont be as much of a benefit but even at just a 3" lift height they make a huge improvement. With that said if you still have stiff coils keeping the suspension from moving then long arms wont do much, it all has to work together for best performance.

 

[verk]

Thanks for insights into control arm function, helpful. Synergy long arm kit is $2100+ and quite a bit of labor. Do I stand any chance of improving situation with better $350 track bar alone ? Think it worth mentioning that I'm only looking to improve ride over our worsening paved roads in this country, not going off road. Pot holes and poor condition roads seem to translate to a lot of vibration through cab that didn't happen before longer springs installed.

 

[AEdelheit]

Thanks for insights into control arm function, helpful. Synergy long arm kit is $2100+ and quite a bit of labor. Do I stand any chance of improving situation with better $350 track bar alone ? Think it worth mentioning that I'm only looking to improve ride over our worsening paved roads in this country, not going off road. Pot holes and poor condition roads seem to translate to a lot of vibration through cab that didn't happen before longer springs installed. Thanks for

Control arms / long arms and the trackbar serve 2 different purposes so no a track bar wont improve the ride much at all but will help with steering where the long arms will improve ride but wont do anything for steering. Even short control arms with free moving joints help the ride decently but not as much as long arms. Did you loosen the control arm bolts and retorque them at ride height? If not the vulcanized bushings are likely in a bind contributing to the poor ride quality.

Another component that makes a big difference on potholes / off camber bumps is a softer rate sway bar. The stock sway bar is great if you are hauling a slide in camper and alot of weight up high but too stiff for unloaded or low center of gravity loads.

 

[Ozymandias]

Tires and air pressure have the greatest impact on Ride quality.

Does the load index of the tires match the weight? Is the air pressure set according to the inflation chart? Is it an LT tire with extra stiff side walls?

 

[verk]

Control arms / long arms and the trackbar serve 2 different purposes so no a track bar wont improve the ride much at all but will help with steering where the long arms will improve ride but wont do anything for steering. Even short control arms with free moving joints help the ride decently but not as much as long arms. Did you loosen the control arm bolts and retorque them at ride height? If not the vulcanized bushings are likely in a bind contributing to the poor ride quality.

Another component that makes a big difference on potholes / off camber bumps is a softer rate sway bar. The stock sway bar is great if you are hauling a slide in camper and alot of weight up high but too stiff for unloaded or low center of gravity loads.

Thanks for clarification. I'll confirm that shop that just installed ball joints "reset" control arm bolts. They did say they adjusted control arm cams as part of the alignment if I remember the conversation. Sway bars ends were replaced with BD Diesel end link kit when the original end links started to fail, but I've not checked anything regarding sway bar for many years. Thanks for reminding about sway bar because I've been suprised in the past how much vibration results from a sway bar that is not adequately bushed or tightened. And I'm a big fan of lower tire pressures and have learned much about doing so from this forum over the years so thanks to Ozy for mentioning that.

 

[AEdelheit]

Thanks for clarification. I'll confirm that shop that just installed ball joints "reset" control arm bolts. They did say they adjusted control arm cams as part of the alignment if I remember the conversation. Sway bars ends were replaced with BD Diesel end link kit when the original end links started to fail, but I've not checked anything regarding sway bar for many years. Thanks for reminding about sway bar because I've been suprised in the past how much vibration results from a sway bar that is not adequately bushed or tightened. And I'm a big fan of lower tire pressures and have learned much about doing so from this forum over the years so thanks to Ozy for mentioning that.

The control arm cams adjust caster and are the lower axle end bolts, gotta do all 8 bolts for it to be right!

 

[verk]

Thanks for mentioning. I saw this in Thuren literature when I installed longer coils, but didn't understand the significance at the time. Now I understand that these bushings are pressed into control arms and therefore should be without twist when the bolts are tightened at a vehicle's neutral ride height ? I now feel like I can talk more intelligently with the service center. So x4 per side ( upper and lower arms ) for both sides results in the 8 bolts ( attached a screenshot ) ?

 

[AEdelheit]

Correct!!

 

[Ozymandias]

Have an eye on your BD swaybar links.
Mine looked like that after just a couple thousand miles.

After that I went with the Thuren swaybar and didn't regret, their links held up for the last 100k. And it smoothed out huts from potholes greatly, the factory sway was much to stiff.

 

[verk]

My end link bushings certainly shot (have been on truck for about 90k), but there doesn't seem to any movement with sway bar bushings. Trying to understand the interplay of coils/shocks & sway bar... so a sway bar ( anti-roll ) is basically a torsion device and it's spring rate should be determined by that of the coils/shocks ? How much does this matter as I'd rather spend $44 on BD end link bushing kit ( seems pricey for 8 rubber bushings ) rather than $600 on a Thuren replacement sway bar and end link kit.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I'd rather spend $44 on BD end link bushing kit ( seems pricey for 8 rubber bushings ) rather than $600 on a Thuren replacement sway bar and end link kit.

I'm pretty happy with my factory sway bar with the Suspension Maxx links of Genos. I did replace me sway bare mount to frame bushings with energy suspension bushings.