Competition 12 valve power

[TCluff]

does anyone know of a good power combination for a twelve valve engine still running the twelve valve head, looking for 800 h. p. on diesel only, or is it better to go with the 24 valve head inj set-up, havent really messed around with the twelve valve too much besides the basics...

 

[PRattenbury]

I believe the 12 valve pistons are optimized for use with the 12 valve head geometry. Putting a 24-valve head on an engine with pistons made for a 12 valve head would therefore not yield optimal results. In short, you'd need to change your pistons, too. You can make 800 horsepower if you want to. Several people have done it. It just takes money. Consider a balanced rotating assembly, fly cut and coated pistons, a big cam, major porting work on the head, heavy valve springs, titanium retainers, ARP New Age studs, o-rings, huge injectors, maybe slightly bigger injector lines, a p-pump capable of moving 700 or so cc's of fuel, advanced timing, aftermarket exhaust manifold, a healthy set of twins or an enormous single turbo, aftermarket intercooler, billet flex plate, and to get it all out to the axles, a built transmission. Figure $30k for a budget. Most of the money will be spent on the transmission, pump and turbos. The head will be spendy, too. Hope this helps.

 

[bmoeller]

Send a PM to Joe Donnelly. His '97 "Old Sickly" was at or over 800hp.

 

[TCluff]

I believe the 12 valve pistons are optimized for use with the 12 valve head geometry. Putting a 24-valve head on an engine with pistons made for a 12 valve head would therefore not yield optimal results. In short, you'd need to change your pistons, too. You can make 800 horsepower if you want to. Several people have done it. It just takes money. Consider a balanced rotating assembly, fly cut and coated pistons, a big cam, major porting work on the head, heavy valve springs, titanium retainers, ARP New Age studs, o-rings, huge injectors, maybe slightly bigger injector lines, a p-pump capable of moving 700 or so cc's of fuel, advanced timing, aftermarket exhaust manifold, a healthy set of twins or an enormous single turbo, aftermarket intercooler, billet flex plate, and to get it all out to the axles, a built transmission. Figure $30k for a budget. Most of the money will be spent on the transmission, pump and turbos. The head will be spendy, too. Hope this helps.

, I THINK I WOULD BE BETTER OFF WITH COMMON RAIL PISTONS, AND A 24VALVE HEAD, THE TURBOS AND TRANS ARE TAKEN CARE OF...

 

[COMP461]

airflow , airflow , airflow . The 12 valve head is not going to give you problems , but it dosen't flow air like a preped 24 valve

 

[PRattenbury]

This is true. Airflow is key. But it's also important to be sure whatever way you go that your internals are matched to work with each other optimally. I'm a relative newbie where diesel is concerned, so I'm just basing what I say on what little I've seen and what I've read.

 

[BigBadDodge]

Here is kind a rough idea, I have dyno sheets for over 800rwhp



http://http://www.bigbaddodge.com/Motor.html



BBD

 

[PRattenbury]

Lotsa money, lotsa hours for 800 ponies.

 

[TCluff]

Lotsa money, lotsa hours for 800 ponies.

WHY CANT IT BE LIKE A SMALL BLOCK CHEVY 500 BUCKS=500H. P.

 

[KKaufman]

WHY CANT IT BE LIKE A SMALL BLOCK CHEVY 500 BUCKS=500H. P.

This may not be quite as true for teh 12 valve but for free you can get about 300 horsies and a whole lotta torque that the small block would never see!

 

[therabbittree]

500 hp for 500 bucks on a small block??? unless your parts are free . . even anitrous kit is more then 500 bucks... sounds . . real cheap

Later

deo

 

[TCluff]

500 hp for 500 bucks on a small block??? unless your parts are free . . even anitrous kit is more then 500 bucks... sounds . . real cheap

Later

deo

startting from a stock running 240 h. p. sbc, with just 500 dollars you can put together a 500 dollar combo, a sbc is still the cheapest dollar to h. p. engine on the planet... every racer knows that...

 

[therabbittree]

even if you had a 240 hp stock 350 $ 500 bucks would be hard pressed to buy a intake , caerb, fittings and air filter. . Iknow thesmallblock chevy is the cheapest to buy parts for but its still hard to do 500 hp with only $500 bucks. . unless you get ALOT of freebie stuff

 

[bluthndr]

startting from a stock running 240 h. p. sbc, with just 500 dollars you can put together a 500 dollar combo, a sbc is still the cheapest dollar to h. p. engine on the planet... every racer knows that...

HP/dollar the Cummins is better than anything I can think of. You can't get a set of decent heads - even for an SBC for $500 - let alone gaskets to put it together, different intake, pistons, etc. Maybe if you happen to be a good head guy with a flow bench, cheap intake, used carb, some tubing and a welder... unless of course, you are talking about the famous "estimated hp" like in reader's rides Ever hear of a 350 that WASN'T a "corvette motor", or a Ford V8 that wasn't a Mustang or Police interceptor?



The first 200 hp increase (on a dyno) on my Cummins was less than $900...



I had a D-max guy talk trash to me the other day 'cause his truck had "650 hp".



Q: "What kind of dyno Mr. D-max?"

A: "Well this programmer gives me 150, that box 120, 50 for the exhaust, and 30 for the air filter, and the truck starts with 300, so... "



Seriously, unless you have a dyno sheet, a timeslip, or the name of someone significant who you've matched/beaten in competition, don't even LOOK like you want to talk to me about how much power you have. If the statement starts with "I have (insert part)," "I think," or "I figure," just punch yourself in the face and save the oxygen you were about to waste talking nonsense - not directed at anyone here - just in general.



Getting back to what the thread started about, I would say you are looking at new pistons, cam, pump work, compound turbos or a big single, and custom injectors. Although I don't make that kind of power, I think it's very possible without going to a 24v head and there are several on here who can attest to that. I do think that the guys with that kind of power have had some head work, but do still have 12v heads. Plus from what I hear, lots of swearing is required to get a 24V head and P-pump to get along. Scott (above), Jim Fulmer, and some others have setups in that neighborhood.

 

[LaserBob]

(If the statement starts with "I have (insert part)," "I think," or "I figure," just punch yourself in the face and save the oxygen you were about to waste talking nonsense - not directed at anyone here - just in general. )



GREAT Line!

 

[TCluff]

you are right, most cant build 500 h. p. for 500 dollars, im a gear head so i usually have enough different parts on hand that i dont have to pay for again to build a 500 h. p. gasser for 500 bucks, but who cares we are here for the oil burners, when is someone going to build us a cnc high flow cylinder head...

 

[Timebomb]

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[JoshPeters]

Wow... I'm only going to say this.

There are MANY guys running 800+hp out of 12v engines. I've only seen ONE person (not Comp) that will openly tell you what was done in this thread. Most of the guys that KNOW how to make that kind of power aren't here. You see this competition forum is kind of a revolving door. The big dogs came in as puppies and are now on to things where the answers are things that can't be asked in a forum. They are really secrets, or unknown.

Airflow..... blah blah blah. Yup, just like ANY engine. Air in, Fuel in, exhaust out. Common sense here. This isn't some "new" thing.

Why do people automatically assume that a 24v head will make a 12v better? Last I checked Scheid's puller, Haisleys puller, Mr Vorhees' puller are all 12v's. Even the estimates that the owners have for power are in the 1200hp+ area. I know for a fact that 2 of the trucks in that class/caliber have no head porting. Why? Heat Dissipation. They are also more prone to cracking when you have less material.

Now... . ask yourself what are you REALLY going to be doing with this engine. Pulling, drag racing, or just a daily driver. To make 800hp in each of those takes a different combination. Puller, lots of fuel, big turbo and some water, you have days to spool at the line. Drag racing, fuel, a properly set up turbo or twins, and LOTS of tuning, you only have a few seconds to be spooled and ready to rock. Daily driver..... you get the picture.

Each set up is different. What you consider a "daily driver" may not work for me.

JP

 

[TCluff]

Well I have this spare 12v reg cab long bed truck just layin around! Me and the boys are going to need a winter project! So we are just starting to kick around a few ideas! Would love to build a puller and start make it to more events!

 

[TNicholas]

i started out with a stock motor 165000 miles. o- ringed the head for good measure. ddp 4 sticks,columbus 800 cc pump,k-31 charger,intercooled,no water and made 680 hp at ts open house in may. #2 only. i would think this setup with a good cam would make 800 hp. oh,did i mention that i had it on the road and it would street drive ok. we drove it to tennesee from bowling green.