13 Speed

[Shadrach]

Has anyone ever replaced their 6 speed with a larger transmission from a bigger truck, like a 9 spped or a 13 speed. The bolt pattern on the back of the HPCR engines is different than the older ones and a Common Rail 5.9 in a 2003 or newer F650 for example would be a Rear Gear Train engine. The fuel pump, for example, is driven off a gear mounted at the back of the engine unlike our Dodges which have it driven off the front gears. There is a gear housing between the flywheel housing and the block. The crank has a snout on the rear end with a gear and a collar on it and it goes tru the gear housing and then the flywheel mounts to the crank like normal. A RGT engine wouldn't fit in a pickup as the firewall and steering would be in the way.

Anyway a customer of mine wants to put a 13 speed in his 3rd gen Dodge and I thought I'd ask if it has been done before. He is not worried about modifying the floor of the truck. Since I own a similar truck I am curious myself.

Thanks David

 

[mwilson]

I have noticed that Freightliner is running the rear gear train as we saw in Columbus. However the Cummins (with the Paccar valve cover) 6.7L that I took pictures of the other day was a front gear train set up. Not sure why.....so there must be some rigging out there somewhere to make that 13 speed hook to a common rail front gear train engine. Gotta' be.
That particular Pete had a Allison but I'm sure that it is available with a standard transmission as well.

 

[AH64ID]

What do you mean different than the older ones? The HPCR and the VP trucks, as well as the 12 valves use the same bolt pattern from what I have seen.

I briefly looked into the larger transmissions, but I couldn't find any that offered a double OD.

 

[mwilson]

He might go with an RTO-613 or RTO-6613. If he jumps up to the RTO-9513 or RTO-9509 for example the case is a lot bigger. I believe that may require a body lift of a few inches.
A single overdrive should be alright I would think. I'll try and find the Roadranger nomenclature for the ratio of each gear when I get a little downtime.
Double overdrive will carry the RTOO designation (or used to)...

 

[cerberusiam]

As a general rule for double coutershaft trnamsission, 4" body lift (with the associated problems, cut the floorboards and remodel everything. This gets problematic with the width of the trans and it all being at the top. Relocation of pedals is a hassle as I think you have to move the acclerator over to get a straight shot at it otherwise it is partial behind the new hump. That can be an issue with 3 pedals now.

Starter is on the wrong side and interferes with down pipe. Have to run it out thru the fender well. Can be done bit is problematic with tire clearance.

Requires a mid mount fro the trasn as I don't think there is a bell housing that doesn't use a mid mount. Requires building mounts to the frame, or, some type of custom rear mount. Mounts on the frame as problematic due to size of bell housing and ultimately frame strength.

No options for t-casae other than divorced which ends up with problems with front DS clearance on mid mount. Requires a lift and special t-case or clocking t-case and builidng custom DS's front and rear.

When it is done, it can and has been done, it is a one off definitely limited market vehicle. If it isn't done correctly it looks funny with small tires and a suspension\body lift due to clearance issues.

Can be done, lot of work to do it right, expensive for what is gained. It doesn't change how much the truck will haul safely, in fact reduces GVW, so all that is really gained is more gears. Oh, and a lot more noise.

Other than all that, its a snap.

 

[Bob V]

There was a guy on www.nwbombers.com that did one on his 2nd gen. Body lift AND firewall/floor trimming. The single biggest problem was getting a starter to fit. This was a 2WD truck so he didn't have to worry about the front drive line. I have heard that the transmission is so wide that there isn't room for the front drive line, and running the exhaust can be problem. I have also heard that they can be noisy. Seems like a LOT of work just to get a few extra lower gears, I know I wasn't happy with my 5 spd but my 6 spd always had the correct gear.

 

[mwilson]

As a general rule for double coutershaft trnamsission, 4" body lift (with the associated problems, cut the floorboards and remodel everything. This gets problematic with the width of the trans and it all being at the top. Relocation of pedals is a hassle as I think you have to move the acclerator over to get a straight shot at it otherwise it is partial behind the new hump. That can be an issue with 3 pedals now.

Starter is on the wrong side and interferes with down pipe. Have to run it out thru the fender well. Can be done bit is problematic with tire clearance.

Requires a mid mount fro the trasn as I don't think there is a bell housing that doesn't use a mid mount. Requires building mounts to the frame, or, some type of custom rear mount. Mounts on the frame as problematic due to size of bell housing and ultimately frame strength.

No options for t-casae other than divorced which ends up with problems with front DS clearance on mid mount. Requires a lift and special t-case or clocking t-case and builidng custom DS's front and rear.

When it is done, it can and has been done, it is a one off definitely limited market vehicle. If it isn't done correctly it looks funny with small tires and a suspension\body lift due to clearance issues.

Can be done, lot of work to do it right, expensive for what is gained. It doesn't change how much the truck will haul safely, in fact reduces GVW, so all that is really gained is more gears.

Other than all that, its a snap.

Some good points, going to take a minute here regarding mounting.

As I think about this trucks have a motor mount at the very front of the engine, usually consists of a u-shaped mount attached to the front cover and two mounts side by side on top of a frame crossmember. The transmissions hang in space, the rear motor mounts attach to the flywheel housing. The two exceptions being GMC / Chevy units that are not in production anymore and Western Star that places the rear mounts on the transmission bell housing. Those are much harder to do a clutch replacement on as the mounts don't like to come down between the frame rails, sometimes making you have to clock the very heavy transmission to get it out.
They used to make use of a leaf spring type affair at the very rear of the Roadranger but that has fallen out of favor nowadays.

 

[AH64ID]

It does seem like a lot of work for lower gears, my only complaint has been the jump between 5th and 6th being too large for rolling hills with a trailer.

 

[The patriot]

I've been thinking about this simce my last view on this topic. (about 2 hrs ago)
Trying to picture putting a rto 14613 in there. smh...it aint going to fit.
Plus an air compressor needed for the splitter.....

 

[mwilson]

It would almost be easier to use an MD frame and flop a Ram body onto it.

 

[SnoKing]

Has anyone ever replaced their 6 speed with a larger transmission from a bigger truck, like a 9 spped or a 13 speed. The bolt pattern on the back of the HPCR engines is different than the older ones and a Common Rail 5.9 in a 2003 or newer F650 for example would be a Rear Gear Train engine. The fuel pump, for example, is driven off a gear mounted at the back of the engine unlike our Dodges which have it driven off the front gears. There is a gear housing between the flywheel housing and the block. The crank has a snout on the rear end with a gear and a collar on it and it goes tru the gear housing and then the flywheel mounts to the crank like normal. A RGT engine wouldn't fit in a pickup as the firewall and steering would be in the way.

Anyway a customer of mine wants to put a 13 speed in his 3rd gen Dodge and I thought I'd ask if it has been done before. He is not worried about modifying the floor of the truck. Since I own a similar truck I am curious myself.

Thanks David

I drove a Titan 90 Chevy Class 8 tractor with a 13 speed road ranger. Empty is was 25K with the tanker trailer and I skipped a lot of gears going up and down the line when empty. So it would be a waste to put that many gears in a pickup. And they are very large boxes and will weigh almost 2 times the weight of standard 6 speed manual. SNOKING

 

[Shadrach]

What do you mean different than the older ones? The HPCR and the VP trucks, as well as the 12 valves use the same bolt pattern from what I have seen.

They are different for sure. In this picture they are from left to right 1st 2nd and 3rd gen. If you look at the top 2 bolt holes on the right hand side of each one you will see that the 3rd gen, the clean one, is spaced differently. HPCR engines don't use a camshaft frost plug in the back of the engine. They use a quad ring that goes into the groove in the transmission adapter.

#ad


David

 

[SnoKing]

I am sure that the B150's 3.9's in my boat have the same mounts on the rear of the block as the 5.9's, however the plate attached puts the starter on the right side of the block and the baring tool hole and other hole on the left side. The the starter bolt between the block and the starter is the pits to R&R, as it is almost directly behind the center of the starter. Just move the starter bolt pattern straight across the the other side and it will give you an vision of where that blot hides! The 5.9 marine engines have the starter in the same location also. Heat from the exhaust manifold is not an issue for the start in this location as the manifold is water cooled. SNOKING

 

[Wayne M.]

On the front/ rear geartrain engines, I always thought the Ram was the only one getting the front geartrain, and that all other production was QSB style/ rear geartrain. Mike, in your PACCAR shots, I swear I see a fuel fitting peeking out from behind the steering shaft.

 

[mwilson]

On the front/ rear geartrain engines, I always thought the Ram was the only one getting the front geartrain, and that all other production was QSB style/ rear geartrain. Mike, in your PACCAR shots, I swear I see a fuel fitting peeking out from behind the steering shaft.

I'll look again, we have four of them kicking around. Installing T/K units on them. I will be back to the Bangor store Weds.

I could have screwed up, it wouldn't be the first time....:-laf

 

[AH64ID]

Many of the QSB marine motors are front gear-train engines.

 

[Mikey-KE7LBB]

It can and has been done before in a Chevy... Now I'm gonna be up all night looking for more videos :-laf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxfE3QJynbU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWRllhZCLNU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrt3-vetCu8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqzmFb9R0SU

I ended up watching the 2013 truck pulls from my home town... Along with a pile of 2 stroke Detroit and John Deere videos

 

[rscurtis]

How about an RTO 610/6610? It's about the same weight as an NV 5600.