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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) 2 stroke oil in fuel for lube, have ???

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Been doing some searching on this subject, but most of what I have found is atleast a couple years old.



Anyone still using 2 stroke in their fuel to add lubrication? I'm thinking 1/2 quart per fill up should do it? With ULSD and winter fuel I am concerned about lubrication. The other day I changed my fuel filter and got diesel on my hands and it actually felt dry as opposed to the slick feeling that it used to have. didnt feel like that petro feeling (if that makes sense) plus it washed over very easy (unlike before).



I run stanadyne PF and I am likely gonna switch to Power Service when my current stanadyne stock pile is gone, due to local availability.



What ratio (how much 2 stroke) are you running in your fuel? Any long term disadvantages, crud in the tank, gummed up injectors, more soot in oil analysis? etc



See below for truck info and truck has 85k miles.



Let me know what you guys think and are doing so I can get going on this.



Thanks

J-
 
I am a firm believer in lubrication. I myself use Power Service, and I am not bashful with it. If I am running low or out of Power service I will put a quart of motor oil in or 2 cycle oil. I even run my burnt engine oil through my truck. You will find lots of info on this some for and some against. I just run it through 2 paint filters. Can't pass up free fuel and lube to boot. Also it saves you having do something with the old oil... .

WBodine
 
2-stoke oil

I use 12oz of 2-cycle oil every fuel up, fill the 12oz plastic coke bottles with oil and hold them in a small can as i need them. Plus some 1/2 gal of used rotella-t at times.
 
I've used 2 cycle oil, Power Serve, Diesel Mate and at times 1/2 qt of ATF. I've never used - used oil of any sorts. I'm sure it would burn but I don't know how the VP would like "spent" oil?
 
I'm actually more comfortable with used engine oil than I am with ATF. I haven't run used oil through my 2000 truck in a couple of years, but did in my 1992 all the time. What I did at oil change time was to pour the used oil into the jugs from my last change, and then let it set for 6 months or more. Even the soot in the oil would settle to a large degree over that time, indicating it was probably better than most any filtration I could do on it. I would then pour about 3/4 of the gallon jug into the fuel tank at fill-up, leaving whatever settled out in the bottom of the jug.

After reading a study on lubricity of different blends of biodiesel which showed that even blends as "thin" as B2 (2% bio) had significant more lubricity than straight #2 petroleum diesel, I cut the amount of used oil I was putting in my tank back to 1 quart. I never experienced any strange behavior, much less any problems from using larger amounts of oil per tank, even going up to 1. 5 gallons. However I was adding it solely for the lubricity and I thought it made sense that based on what that study showed with biodiesel, it followed that it probably didn't take a whole lot of oil to raise lubricity too.

At one time Cummins' web site had a page that mentioned they found no problems running up to 5% used lube oil in the B series, but it's been gone for several years now.

Mike
 
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I was just wondering... . why would you want to put something in your fuel system that wasn't designed to be there? 2-stroke oil was not designed for diesels, where in any application is ATF supposed to be combustible (and if it combusts, I don't want it in my transmission!), and as for used engine oil, after seeing the oil sample analyses from many, many diesel engines used in over-the-road, industrial, construction, and agricultural, I wouldn't put any used engine oil in a neighbor's lawnmower let alone mine... ? Years ago, back in the late 70's and early 80's, Racor used to sell a filtration cart to blend in "filtered" used diesel engine oil into diesel fuel, up to a maximum of 5% by volume. But as injection systems developed higher pressures and tighter tolerances, that practice was discontinued. Most manufacturers rescinded that practice also. By the time you have an oil analysis done to see what the percentages of contamination are and the amount of anti-freeze left in it (that you really don't want going through your injectors), you could buy the proper diesel fuel additive and use the right thing... .



The Stanadyne PF was designed for your fuel system as well as many other manufactured additives. They are designed to do the job that they were designed for. The Standyne Lubricity Formula was invented back when the military was running JP8 in HMMWVs during Operation Desert Storm, and it has performed well to this day... If it will add the proper lubrication to JP8 to allow it to be used in a diesel injection system, then it will work wonders for ULSD!



I don't want this to escalate into a big blown out debate about the subject. I was just trying to think through the logic of this one... IMO, and that is all it is, my opinion, I want the right tool for the job, not just a crescent wrench... .



I just have to scratch my head... and keep on wondering... .
 
Gtobey, I think most people probably aren't comfortable with running anything that isn't specifically marketed (note I say "marketed" and not "designed") for use in a diesel fuel system, and that's entirely okay. Naturally there are also a lot of people who refuse to use any additive whatsoever, using the logic that "my engine was designed to run on diesel fuel--why would I need to add anything to it?", and for people who aren't aware of the lubricity problems of the different diesel blends, that makes a lot of sense.

I have a problem with the phrase "designed for". Where something might be designed for one purpose, that doesn't mean it isn't beneficial for other purposes. The HX-40 was designed for applications like the Cummins C series engine, but works well for B series engines with increased fueling. The P7100 pump was likewise designed for the C series class engines, but also works well on the B, a perfect illustration of this being that Dodge decided to use it with the B starting in the 1994 model year trucks to get better emissions over the VE pump.

Non-synthetic lube oil wasn't designed to be burned, but it works extremely well for increasing fuel lubricity, so that's why those of us who use it do so. I think it actually works better than every commercial diesel additive that I've ever tried, but that's my own opinion with no data to back it up. You need to keep in mind that diesel fuel is in itself an oil, so blending in a slightly heavier oil at very low concentrations (<5%, or about 1% by my preference) is no big deal at all. You also need to keep in mind that those of us using used lube oil are filtering it in some way. As I mentioned earlier, I let mine settle--even the soot settles out to a certain degree, and I couldn't get that with even the best filtration. I admit that if my oil analysis results were not adequate, I wouldn't add it to my fuel, however my analysis results with Blackstone have been perfectly fine. But again, at <5% even lube oil contaminated with water and/or glycol still wouldn't be that big of a deal. It's less moisture than you already get in your fuel system through condensation, or that tiny bit that splashes down the filler neck when you fuel up in the rain. Glycol by itself is a lubricant, and so won't harm the pump or injectors at all in such tiny amounts (remember, if the lube oil is contaminated with 2% glycol, what I'm adding to my fuel system would be 2% of 1%, or . 056 of a pint!)

I should point out that I'm not trying to convince other people to do what I'm doing--I'm simply explaining what I do and why. Anyone not comfortable putting anything but pure diesel fuel, or diesel fuel with a commercial additive should continue to do so, and feel perfectly fine about it.

Mike
 
Hey there, Mike... I kinda see where you're coming from, but from here is where my opinion is shaped and where it changes direction...



Having been a heavy equipment mechanic back in the 70's, a Pre-Tech Coordinator for Bosch, a trainer for fuel system repairs, built all major makes of fuel systems from the 70's on and an Association of Diesel Specialists Certified Diesel Injection Technician, I look at this from a slightly different standpoint. As you began, I agree with you in that folks can choose to run whatever they want in their engines, and it doesn't really bother me in the least. What I question is the way some choose a specific item to put into their fuel systems. Sometimes with proper thought and investigation, and other times through feelings or pure non-scientific experimentation with no real hard evidence to backup any claims. In that many years of paying my mechanical dues, I have seen quite a few things, and some things I wish I hadn't seen. Some types of experimentations became very costly. Some were not so costly, but caused frequent downtimes and aggravation. Some even reduced the longevity of the piece of equipment. Some were "marketed" for, some said "designed" for, and a lot of both that didn't work. I have no problems with either term, as I fully understand their differences.



A product specifically "designed for" a certain application could be beneficial in another not necessarily considered when it was originally made, and on the other hand, it could be detrimental! For example, read some of the problems that folks are experiencing with E-10 (ethanol) in gasoline. Some major expensive problems! Especially for the marine industry. So we can't assume that just because a product is good that it logically can be applied to another application without hard, steadfast evidence to support it. If you wish to fund the experimentation, by all means, do it, but have a control group, experiment under scientifically recognized controlled conditions as well as real world conditions, and document your scientific findings so that you don't spend good money for bad use or even good money for good use and have nothing to back it up or prove it with... .



The 'P" series Bosch pump was not specifically designed only for the 'B' or 'C' series Cummins engine, as the "P" series Bosch pumps, both flange mounted or cradle mounted were used on everything from Macks, Internationals, Volvo, Deutz, Fiat, Allis-Chalmers, and many other engines worldwide. This style of injection pump was and is also built under license in Japan by Nippondenso and the former Diesel Kiki which is now Zexel, for a host of other manufacturers throughout the world. These pumps are specifically "designed" for each type of engine that they are to work on, in engine timing, in horsepower, torque, and emissions, etc. , such that they are given an individual part number by the engine manufacturer for that specific application. And in 1994, when the 5. 9L Cummins made a change of design and went up in horsepower, Bosch sold Cummins the 'P' series pump to operate on the higher horsepower engine because the 'VE' style distributor pump used previously was reaching it's maximums in fuel delivery and longevity at that maximum fuel delivery. The 'P' series pump can deliver a lot more fuel than the 'VE' style, however, it was not because of emissions that Cummins chose this type of pump, but because of the quantity of the fuel delivery and longevity that the pump would provide to match the horsepower range that the 5. 9L engine could provide. The previous 'VE' style pump incorporated its own advance mechanism to provide for reduced emissions and better performance. In simple terms, like a distributor with a vacuum advance, only this one was hydraulically operated. The 'P' series pump is a "fixed timing" pump meaning that the static timing does not vary from cranking to high idle speed as there is no advance mechanism incorporated. It is for this reason that the 'VP44' model of pump entered the arena in 1998. 5 so that the engine could increase the HP and still meet EPA emissions standards with the return of a timing advance mechanism.



The governor on the P7100 is an 'RQV' style, very well suited for over-the-road applications, and the result is an accelerator pedal which feels much like a gas engine type versus that of a farm tractor. This 'RQV' design provides governor control to maintain idle speed of the engine, and fuel cutoff at maximum engine RPM to prevent overspeeding the engine. In-between low and high idle speeds, the accelerator pedal pretty much controls the fuel delivery up to the maximum settings provided for in the governor calibration.



Non-synthetic lube oil was designed such that it was a 'lube oil' and not a 'fuel'. We know that in order to lubricate the rings on a piston, that we have to have a certain amount of oil left in the "hatch marks" on the cylinder walls so that even the top compression ring is lubricated. The bottom ring, or "oil control" ring, serves that purpose. The cylinder wall is 'engineered' in the specific process of making and deburring these hatch marks, along with the correct degree of angle of those minute grooves and lands in combination with the specified oil viscosity to provide proper piston and ring lubrication. Some oil is meant to be left in those grooves to lubricate the piston/rings when the piston is on compression stroke, and that minute amount of oil is burned in the cylinder during combustion of the injected fuel. Manufacturers build engines knowing that this minute amount of oil is being burned in the cylinders over the lifetime of an engine and engineer them so that it should have no detrimental effects. In fact, as engines have become cleaner and cleaner, the EPA wants to further reduce the HC emissions and that means reducing the oil left in the hatch marks of a cylinder. But remember, you still have to leave enough there to lubricate the piston and rings! It's a catch-22 situation... That is why some manufacturers have started experimenting with ceramic coatings, exotic metals, etc. to help lower this emission from the exhaust of their engines.



I fully understand where petroleum diesel comes from, and the cracking process. I also know the process for removing sulfur from diesel, and have experienced first-hand what happens to fuel injection equipment without proper lubrication. I do disagree that engine oil is a "slightly heavier oil" than #2 diesel as this is similar to comparing aluminum to steel. Both are metals, but one is only slightly heavier than the other???? That is not an accurate analogy, however, I think you can see what I am saying. ASTM #2 Diesel and 15W-40 engine oil are as different as night and day even though they may be in the same family. Viscosity, API gravity, cetane, flash point, btu content, carbon residue, ash, cloud point, pour point, etc. are different in each. Read the past TDR article interviewing John Martin about the differences in diesel engine oils, and you'll see that even between oil brands the contents of the additive packages differ greatly! And what about these "heavy metals" in those additive packages? Where does that metal go when the oil is burned in the fuel? Rings, cylinder walls, coked or plugged injection nozzles, build up on valves, seats, or guides? What effect does all of this have on the engine? How long before the atomization of the fuel from the injectors is compromised from the metals/ash/carbon residue, anti-freeze such that fuel economy suffers or harder starting occurs? That is another uncalculated cost. Then calculate the labor involved to properly filter the old oil along with the cost of the filters when changed. Considering all of this, I disagree that blending a heavier oil (with totally different properties) in a small concentration is "no big deal".



And Glycol by itself is not a lubricant, but in fact is an industrial solvent in which other compounds are dissolved. Ask any mechanic how much lubrication is provided when your head gasket leaks ethylene glycol into the engine oil. You'd be best served to check your main and rod bearings if you do get it into the oil! In fact, water dissolves readily into glycol by itself, and it is used in the natural gas industry to remove water vapor in the gas in a process called gycol dehydration. Here's what you can expect from glycol in your engine: "Coolant system leakage is one of the most serious hazards for any lubricating system. Glycol from antifreeze breaks down at normal engine temperatures and forms sludge and deposits. Water in the coolant reduces lubricity and can cause corrosion and premature wear. " All of that havoc wreaked in the crankcase, but what do you think even a small amount would do exposed to the high temperatures and extreme pressures of the precision parts in the diesel fuel injection system with only 80 to 100 millionths of an inch clearance!? I want an additive that helps to remove water in the filter, and not carry it on forward into the critical components of my system...

(Continued in next post)
 
I should mention and point out here that this is what has shaped my opinion, and why it differs from the one you presented. That we can have a good discussion in a great forum as this is enjoyable, and further helps those who are interested enough to read it to educate themselves, investigate for themselves the claims made by manufacturers and individuals alike, and challenges them to expand their education level in this subject. Your comment that "Anyone not comfortable putting anything but pure diesel fuel, or diesel fuel with a commercial additive should continue to do so, and feel perfectly fine about it. " is a right of everyone, and whatever we have discussed here has not restricted that right in any way. Education can change the view of our surroundings such that we look at the same things a bit differently than before. With that knowledge we can use our newfound intelligence for our best benefit by modifying our behaviors to provide enhancements in our existence. Failure to do so means performing tasks the same way each time, but each time expecting different outcomes.



Enjoy your Cummins! They're the best!
 
There was a test posted here recently and some of the commercial products did not fair very well. They did include WM 2 cycle oil and it was in the top 7. Not the best but did show an increase in lube. I never used anything until ULSD came on the market. The lube is not added to it until the rack and they are loading the truck. I drove a tanker for 3 years and can tell you that there is room for human error at the rack. SNOKING
 
Gtobey,an excellent post. We could use more like it that come from an informed source rather than the false warm and fuzzy feeling place. :-laf

I have been in the Auto industry for over 30 years as well and my reason for finally joining the TDR was to find out where some of my customers ideas were coming from.



Bob
 
Here are the test results that SNOKING was referring to. If you notice the ratio used for TCW-3 was 200:1. Using 1 oz per gallon gives a ratio of 128:1. That`s the ratio I use.

My question is: Can it hurt anything?
 
I would recomend you ask a bosch trained and practicing fuel injection specialist. Thay have seen thousands of injectors with and with out failures and will have a much better perspective than someone has has owned and driven a truck or two :-laf
 
IANALE, but I play one on TV. Well, OK, I don't do that either. :)

Do some web searches on 2-smoke oil additives. Yes, 2-smoke oil does have a number of additives. Also TCW-3 and API_TC (IIRC) have different formulations for different applications; TCW is for engines that are kept very cool (or cold) while API_TC is for Bombardier and similar engines that can get hot. Then investigate the residue left from burning (oxidizing) those additives. Finally decide if those additives and residues are good things to put in your fuel system.

My personal thought is that if you *really* insist on putting lube oil in your fuel, use only] base oil: lube that has no additives added at all. Pure base oil should be no more harmful than #2 oil.

Me? I'll stick with Diesel Power, Stanadyne on any of the other commercially-available lubricity enhancers. At least until I can afford to buy a new common rail and reprogram it to run on gasoline/oil mix.
 
Gtobey, thanks very much for the very informative post--lots of good stuff there. I also want to thank you for the way you replied, which definitely shows class. All to often people like myself get a bunch of abusive ridicule for even daring to post a question, much less any observations. In this respect the TDR forum has significantly deteriorated since I joined in 2001.



Davemac, that's great info! Given my personal interest in the used lube oil, I'd be very curious to see similar results at different concentrations. The 200:1 blend (if my math is correct) comes out to . 7 quart per 35 gallons of diesel, which is very, very little.



Mike
 
I'd just like to add that I am a 2 stroke oil user - a pint at fillup for every 27 gal or so. I just had my turbo off in October, and noticed nothing unusual as far as soot/deposits etc.



My justification: It is designed to lubricate...
 
I'd just like to add that I am a 2 stroke oil user - a pint at fillup for every 27 gal or so. I just had my turbo off in October, and noticed nothing unusual as far as soot/deposits etc.



My justification: It is designed to lubricate...



And burn...
 
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