2003 Dodge Cummins Engine Question

[Lcjudge]

I have a 2003 Dodge 2500 Cummins, Crew Cab, AT, about 100,000 miles on it. I've taken great care of it, changing the oil every 4000 miles. It doesn't have a drip, leak or issue....that is until the other day.

About 2 weeks ago I had to drive the truck on about a 100 mile drive. I noticed every now and then the engine would feel like it missed, sort of like a gas engine with a bad plug. It would clear out and run fine.

I thought possibly this was a fuel filter issue and thought I would take it in to get a filter very soon.

I had to take it on another short 30 mile drive. While pulling a hill I noticed the engine seemed to be losing power. I eventually got down to about 10 mph. Then the engine seemed to miss quite badly and died. I coasted in to a grocery store and it wouldn't start. When cranking it over it would pour out white smoke from the exhaust. It smelled like raw fuel.

The tow truck came and got me and took the truck back to a local service center. They aren't a Dodge dealer but have 3 or 4 Certified mechanics (former Chev. dealership mechanics) but primarily deal with gas not diesel.

They plugged it up and the only code that came up was P-2509. They looked it up and didn't think that would be the problem with the engine. They checked the pumps and everything seems fine, its pumping fuel to the injector pump and the injectors seem to be getting the fuel from the pump.

I told them I had tried to crank it at the parking lot and a mechanic tried to crank it. It immediately filled the building with smoke and they had to raise all doors for a few minutes to clear things out.

One tech said "I think you have an electrical issue". ?????

I thought I would touch base with folks here to get your thoughts as some of you might have a clue. The last time I took it to the dealership I had some minor work done (not on the engine) but still spent around $500. I don't have the $$$$ right now to do something major. But.....???

Anyone have some thoughts?

 

[Bob4x4]

Injector would be the most likely cause,check for fuel contamination as a root cause

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

x2, injector/s are most likely cause. Hopefully you didn't run it long enough to scuff the cylinder walls, etc. Bob has seen a lot of this type problem, and I have seen some also.

 

[Lcjudge]

x2, injector/s are most likely cause. Hopefully you didn't run it long enough to scuff the cylinder walls, etc. Bob has seen a lot of this type problem, and I have seen some also.

Thanks. Hopefully I didn't run it long enough to cause problems. There wasn't fuel in the oil (that we could tell) and the crankcase was actually about 1/2 qt low which is where it normally is at change time, which it is due for. When it began to give problems it did it rather quick. It wasn't one of those situations where we ran it all summer knowing something was wrong.

I'll post what we find out. If you or anyone else has additional thoughts, please pass them on.

 

[CKelley1]

the fuel filter is not good enough in your truck, you must use a added 2 micron filter to get max life. pm me with were your lift pump is located if you want to build one for about $100 including filters. the missing was the injector sticking closed, the black smoke it stuck open. we run a fleet of dodges from 1989 to 2012's and we use oil analysis to determine oil change interval. you are wasting a lot of money. each change in design changes the interval example the 04.5 unmodified produces seven times more carbon in the oil than your 03 because of the in-cylinder egr. on your 03 you can extend your drain interval to 15,000 with a 5,000 mile safety headroom. check wallmart to see if they carry the delo or rotella and use the 15-40 of witch ever one they carry. for the oil filter, go online and search Baldwin BD7317 some place like fleetfilter.com will have them for less than $10 this filter is not in any cross-reference to stock filter or listed for use in dodge. this is a lot better filter than the listed ones. fleetguard has a better version of this one LF9028 but is to expensive to run, about 3x expensive as the Baldwin.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

After reading John Martin's article in TDR71, I changed from Fleetguard cellulose to stratapore LF16035. I still prefer the old formula CI4+ oil for the pre-2007.5 engines.

 

[JJPage]

P2509 ECM/PCM Power input signal intermittent.

This condition the OP is experiencing seemed to happen all of a sudden, pretty quick to assume injector(s) failure...I believe I remember reading a thread a few years back about the PCM on 03/04s losing their signal due to connection corrosion where it connects to the passenger side firewall. Would it not make more sense to check this out 1st, given the DTC present? Just thinking out loud...

 

[RottonRob]

I see that the lf16035 changes to BD7349 . Is this the same insides???

 

[rscurtis]

CKelley1 is correct, you're leaving a lot of money on the table with your oil changes. When I drain the oil in my signature truck after 16-18K miles (with a filter change half-way), it's still clean. You could dump it into an '04.5-'07 and run it some more. Last time I had it sampled, it was nowhere near the end of its life.

 

[K5IP]

CKelly,
Good info. I did your filter mod (or a slight variation of it). It was easy to implement using your filter housing and filter recommendations.
If one has access to salvage parts, (I did mine using a piece of unistrut and one 90- deg angle) it can be done for even less than $100 and will be a first rate job.
Rog

 

[CKelley1]

a sticking injector can NOT be caused by any electrical problem. to lengthy to explain but it is impossible. joseph is correct on the ci4+ oil, lcjudge I did not think I should get to carried away, when the industry had to go to dpf they had to reformulate the oils to remove and replace any additives that would clog up the dpf filter and that was mostly the anti wear additives, a quart of oil is only about 65% oil stock and 35% additive package. also the package needed to handle the extra carbon loading from the egr, the dispersants was raised to allow the oil to hold up to 7% carbon in suspension. the oil industry had to change to the new cj4 package in advance of the introduction of the rigs that all ci4+ oils were off of the shelf's. at that time the industrial engines did not have to comply, ci4+ oils are plentiful if you know where to get it at least for now. most heavy equipment dealers carry it and all oil distributors carry it. my local distributor is chevron the ci4+ oil is only sold in 5 gallon pails or 55 gallon drums in the delo line. the ci4+ delo does not have LE in the wording where the cj4 has like 15W-40 LE on it. the off road equipment is now having to meet some stricter levels of emissions so I think soon that ci4+ oils will disappear. the two filters I mentioned are special refer engine filters made for extended engine drain intervals and have a bypass filter built in them. I found out about them when I seen the cummins mechanics were using the fleetguard LF9028 here is what they look like the used one is a lf16035 the unique one is the lf9028 and the cheap knockoff is the bd7317 on the 9028 the material is stratapore
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[JJPage]

a sticking injector can NOT be caused by any electrical problem. to lengthy to explain but it is impossible.

I do not believe it's been determined that the OP's problem is a sticking injector...yet.

A failed solenoid is an electrical issue, a failed injector harness is an electrical issue to name two, either one could cause an injector to remain shut/open, so even though it may be lengthy, please start explaining this statement so it makes sense to me.

 

[tgee43]

Could it be 1 or more stuck injectors, it wont run because stuck injectors are dumping rail pressure to the rest? Electrically, wouldn't a shorted to power, or shorted to ground, or an open circuit with the solenoid or wiring store a code as such? Just a thought.

 

[tgee43]

the fuel filter is not good enough in your truck, you must use a added 2 micron filter to get max life. pm me with were your lift pump is located if you want to build one for about $100 including filters. the missing was the injector sticking closed, the black smoke it stuck open. we run a fleet of dodges from 1989 to 2012's and we use oil analysis to determine oil change interval. you are wasting a lot of money. each change in design changes the interval example pthe 04.5 unmodified roduces seven times more carbon in the oil than your 03 because of the in-cylinder egr. on your 03 you can extend your drain interval to 15,000 with a 5,000 mile safety headroom. check wallmart to see if they carry the delo or rotella and use the 15-40 of witch ever one they carry. for the oil filter, go online and search Baldwin BD7317 some place like fleetfilter.com will have them for less than $10 this filter is not in any cross-reference to stock filter or listed for use in dodge. this is a lot better filter than the listed ones. fleetguard has a better version of this one LF9028 but is to expensive to run, about 3x expensive as the Baldwin.

In cylinder EGR? Did I miss something? Thought that was a CAT thing, ACERT.

 

[Bob4x4]

P2509 ECM/PCM Power input signal intermittent.

This condition the OP is experiencing seemed to happen all of a sudden, pretty quick to assume injector(s) failure...I believe I remember reading a thread a few years back about the PCM on 03/04s losing their signal due to connection corrosion where it connects to the passenger side firewall. Would it not make more sense to check this out 1st, given the DTC present? Just thinking out loud...

You will not get smoke out the exhaust with a 2509

 

[AH64ID]

CJ oils might be able to hold 7% soot, but Cummins still limits the ISB to 3%.

In cylinder EGR? Did I miss something? Thought that was a CAT thing, ACERT.

Not just a cat thing, it was used on the 04.5-07 5.9's via cam, piston, turbo, and tuning.

The cam portion started with MY03, but the last 3 were a MY04.5 change.

 

[JJPage]

You will not get smoke out the exhaust with a 2509

Obviously you've dealt with this DTC in the past. Could something as simple as weak start batteries be causing the OP's symptoms and this DTC? You deal with this on a daily basis, so not trying to second guess, I just notice a trend or tendency for folks to always jump to the conclusion of faulty injectors when it comes to CR's. I was almost a victim of this myself, so I naturally try and eliminate other sources first.

Jess

 

[TCDiesel]

You will not get smoke out the exhaust with a 2509

Bob4x4, would you agree that they must find the cause of this code 1st. 2509 is the worst code I have ever tried to correct, it throws the vehicle into limp mode instantly, 1 of 100s of things can cause the 2509, form bad battery to shorted wire on the cig lighter, if the tech alluded to the 2509 causing the smoke (Electrical problem) he's wrong the 2509 is part of the problem in the OPs case.

 

[Lcjudge]

I thought I would let everyone know what the final results on this issue was. I had all the injectors pulled and tested at Diesel Injection in Louisville. I actually only had 4 of the injectors tested as 2 of them were in such a shape that you could blow air through them. It was if something was in them holding them open. 3 of the 4 tested bad so I had to install 5 injectors.

What's strange about this is that all of this happened in about a 30 mile stretch. The engine went from running great, to missing severely, then puffing a large amount of white smoke, then stopped. After the mechanic installed the injectors it cranked right up. There must have been a couple of gallons of diesel in the muffler and exhaust. When I took it down the parkway on a test run, all 4 lanes of traffic had to stop as the smoke rolled! After a few minutes the smoke lessened.

I drove about 8 miles and pulled off the parkway into a station. I put in 5 gal of fuel and it wouldn't start. I cranked and cranked, nothing. I went in the station and bought a can of starting fluid and gave it a short shot in the air filter intake. It fired up and I drove it back to the shop. When I got there I shut it off and again, it wouldn't crank. I went in and talked with the mechanic and he said there was only 2 or 3 things it could be. He hooked the computer up and the rail pressure was low, about 3000 psi and it would never come above that cranking it with the starter. He pulled the wire off the back of the valve at the high pressure pump and still nothing. Then he pulled the pressure relief valve thats on the rail. He took it to his bench and did something then tapped on it, blew some air through it and out came a small piece of debris. He installed it back on the rail and the truck fired up after about a second. I turned it off, waited about a minute and again it started after about a second of cranking.

This brings up a big question. Since the injectors failed all at once and then there was a piece of debris stuck in the pressure relief, is it possible that I had a fuel filter disintegrate or at least this happen to a small portion of it? Its hard to imagine all of this happening in the matter of about 30 minutes (in terms of the motor shutting down) unless there was some sort of major failure in the system.

Thanks to all for the comments and advice.

 

[Prairie Dog]

As stated before, the fuel filter isn't fine enough to catch what it should according to Bosch (thank Dodge for the substandard filtering).
I would highly recommended you install additional 2 micron filtering. There are lots of good kits out there - mine came from GDP.
I would also replace the factory filter.

Scott