2012 Toyota HiLux Diesel Pickup

[Nyoest]

The Mitsubishi/Dodge D50 was the exception, but it was pricey compared to the others. There is no market IMO for a diesel half-ton. It will be the same size as an HD and cost almost a much, for a few more MPG. The market is there for a compact PU that can still do some work and get 30+ MPG on the road. There are rumblings that Mahindra has reached some type of deal with International to assemble the truck in Alabama to avoid the 25% Chicken Tax. We'll see how that works out- or if it's just another pipe dream.

I don't know how you can price a truck that isn't even built. It's all speculation but I wouldn't purchase a compact. I actually need a truck that can seat three and put a quad or firewood in the bed. I've never understood the compact pickup, a Subaru with a trailer hitch would actually be better.



It all a pipe dream now anyhow. If they actually did produce a smaller gvw truck they would stick some god awfull V-5 EGR laden turd in it and it would flop.



For now Ill stick with my 6,900 pound commuter rig.

 

[Dl5treez]

If Toyota Killed the FJ, then why did I see new ones at the San Diego International Auto Show on Friday? Am I seeing New Old Stock or was it really killed?

Nope you're right. It is still being sold. The marketing killed it in terms of sales. Over 55,000 units in year 1 down to under 12,000 units within year 4 due to American consumers not knowing what they are buying.

 

[bheiting]

Nope you're right. It is still being sold. The marketing killed it in terms of sales. Over 55,000 units in year 1 down to under 12,000 units within year 4 due to American consumers not knowing what they are buying.

The FJ Cruiser uses the 4 Runner chassis. You can get the 4 Runner for less cash, and it's a more reliable vehicle. I believe it's Rod Millen that makes a new Land Cruiser FJ40 reproduction with a diesel option. They're beautiful, but very spendy.

 

['strokeThis_'07]

I don't think Cummins has a V-8. :-laf

Sure they do. Just nothing to put it in.

 

[MChrist]

Sure they do. Just nothing to put it in.

New Cummins V6 and V8 Diesel Engines - Exclusive Preview - Diesel Power Magazine



Personally, I think a smaller diesel in any full size truck would be a nice option. Sprinter has those 3. 0 liter V6 diesels in their one ton cargo vans all over the world, and you just don't hear anybody complaining they don't have enough power. All I ever hear is that they get 22 mpg highway. I looked at a used, one ton (dually, long wheelbase, high roof) with ladder racks all over this thing ( so it wasn't aerodynamic at all). I checked the average mpg on the computer and it was 16. 1 over the last 12,000 miles. This truck was loaded for bear, even had a well worn hitch, so he towed a work trailer quite often. It was a carpenter's work van, so you know it was loaded heavy quite often. It drove like a dream. . it was quiet, smooth, more than enough oomph...



I have several Isuzu NPR and NRRs that weigh between 12,500 and 20,000 pounds that only have 200 hp 400 tq 4 cylinder 4. 8-5. 2 liter motors, and they, too, have plenty power. So why would 200/400 NOT be enough in a full size pickup used as a daily driver/work truck?? For those who don't tow big 5th wheel campers, it would be more than enough. If I recall correctly, the small Cummins they are talking about in the article offered in the neighborhood of 300/500.



I suppose the real point boils down to economics on the part of the manufacturer. If they spend millions to develop, certify, and produce this smaller diesel option for full size trucks, would it really sell and be profitable?? Wouldn't it really just take away from sales of the bigger diesel option? As much of a proponent as I am of smaller, lighter diesel options. . I'm not positive I would purchase one just because it is there. For roughly the same money, if I can buy the big one that I know will tow/do anything I may ever need it to do, vs. a smaller one that well give a few more mpg and will do 99% of what I may ever need it to do... I'm not positive I would buy it. It all depends on what I'm planning to do with it. And if I did buy it, that would just take away from a purchase of the bigger diesel truck from the same manufacturer...



Chevrolet shelved their 4. 5 liter diesel option that looked like a jewel (on paper). There must be a reason.....

 

[EDankievitch]

The 2004-2006 Jeep Liberty had a 4. 2 Ltr engine that was improted by Cummins. Cummins had used that engine init's smaller Io marine engine package marketed as Dt4. 2 300 Hp sold with a Bravo outdrive. It was a good product only did not have enough support. The few Jeeps that I've seen their owners speak very highly of the performance and Mpg..... As with the Sprinter the engines exist we just haveto show Detroit that we want them.

 

[MChrist]

The 2004-2006 Jeep Liberty had a 4. 2 Ltr engine that was improted by Cummins. Cummins had used that engine init's smaller Io marine engine package marketed as Dt4. 2 300 Hp sold with a Bravo outdrive. It was a good product only did not have enough support. The few Jeeps that I've seen their owners speak very highly of the performance and Mpg..... As with the Sprinter the engines exist we just haveto show Detroit that we want them.

I've never heard of this engine. The 2006 Jeep Liberty offered a 2. 8 4 cylinder diesel. What is your source?

 

['strokeThis_'07]

Liberty only had a 2. 8L VM Motori I4. The Jeep Grand Cherokee had a Mercedes 3. 0L V6. Neither had anything to do with Cummins

 

[NIsaacs]

The new 2012 Ford Ranger (not sold in North America) will have two diesel options. A 2. 2 I-4 turbo, 148 hp/277 tq. or a 3. 2 I-5 turbo with 197 hp/347 tq. also 5spd or 6spd standard or 6spd auto. $51,000



Nick

 

[surfbeetle]

My brother in law bought my nephew an extra cab v6 gas ranger around 5 years ago for $14,xxx. How did the cost of a ranger now get to 40-50 grand? Who in their right minds would buy that?



Also, I spoke to a guy who just bought a '11 Ford powerjoke and he was saying that the urea cost 10 bux a gallon and he had to fill up 6 gallons every 5,000 miles. What a pain in the backside. It's this type of bs that makes me want to just stick with the simplicity of my 12 valve. I will probably just end up with a daily driver car and use the truck only for camping and such.

 

[Bob4x4]

There is a big market for a ½ ton diesel pickup in the US. Dodge should have been on this years ago.



Am I correct?

I have to disagree... ... ... ... . they were very close to doing it but decided the market was not there.

Real world testing was done with both v6 and v8 Cummins.

 

[MChrist]

Feb 2012 DieselPower Magazine, pg. 23:
Chevy Colorado will have it's 2. 5 and 2. 8 liter Duramax diesel motors available around the world, POSSIBLY even the United States. 2. 8 liter is rated at 180 hp/324 tq. 2. 5 is rated 150/258.

 

[Bob4x4]

As I see it there is no reason to have a high torque diesel engine in a light duty truck UNLESS the fuel mileage is a significant improvement. Why spend a bunch of money on a drivetrain that will live under high torque but not be able to perform work???

All the good fuel mileage diesel vehicles (50 MPG) have been light duty engines and drivetrains in Light vehicles.

The Jeep G/C is a good example to show the market is not ready for a torque(Y)

motor in a light duty package that does not offer substantial mpg gains.

 

[EDankievitch]

Jeep makes a bunch of Diesel product just we can't have it. Don't know about you but I'd have a Jeep Wrangler Diesel in a heartbeat at any cost. It's not the money to develop the Diesel products it's the cost of getting it through the emission approval process. Global V. did all the leg work getting the Mahindra trucks approved with their own money only to have Mahindra screw them over and pull out of the deal. Audi, VW, and BMW all now offer diesel product. So to get approval is not impossable. VW can't ship them into the country fast enough. As for the Jeep G/C I recall that the CEO of Fiat said something to the effect about that product line "Un-Fit for Human consumption. "
The research has been done, the light duty trucks with diesel engines exist. It's time to MAKE NOISE THAT WE WANT THEM!!!!

 

[rbattelle]

The fact is that Detroit does not know that we really want that small or mid size truck with a diesel that would give great fuel mpg. That or as my GrandFather always said that the oil companies control everything Like I said before it's time to make some NOISE

So you're saying the car companies could make a fortune selling hundreds of thousands of small pickup trucks (1/2 ton or less) equipped with a diesel engine, and despite spending hundreds of millions of dollars annually (collectively) on market research, they don't know about it?

People on diesel truck sites have been talking for many years about how desperately we need small trucks with diesels because there's a huge demand for them but either the car companies somehow don't know that, or there is some conspiracy (which would require perfect competence on the part of the conspirators) to keep them out of the market.

Am I crazy to think that maybe the car companies are pretty good, in general, at their market research and they know what they could sell profitably in this country? After decades of this kind of talk on forums like this, do we really think that it's just a conspiracy or the car companies being unaware that there's this enormous untapped market?

I don't think many people want a diesel vehicle in this country. Maybe because they don't understand the benefits, or maybe because diesel fuel is MORE expensive than gasoline and, generally, more difficult to find.

VW has a 9% share of the WORLD car market, and about 2% in the US market. In 2009 they sold 41278 diesel vehicles in the US, representing 20% of their total US sales. 20% of 2% is 0. 4%. That's 0. 4% of the entire US car market buying VW diesels. Even if you're right, and VW can't keep a TDI on the lot, they're still a tiny fraction of the total market - hardly representing a ravenous untapped demand for small diesel vehicles. And I refuse to believe that VW is deliberately restricting the number of TDIs in the marketplace - they're in this to make money, why would they ignore a huge, untapped demand?

In the capitalist system - which, I know, is not popular right now - successful people find something people want, they go produce it, and then they sell it. The first step is the most important - find something people want. If there were a massive, untapped demand for small diesel vehicles in this country, someone in the last 30 years would have found it and made a fortune. In fact, there was a time when you could buy a Ford Ranger with a 4 cylinder diesel in this country! Ever seen one? I haven't - because hardly anyone bought one, at a time when diesel fuel was cheaper than water and there were, effectively, no EPA anti-diesel regulations! So either Ford said, "let's screw the American public and stop selling this Ranger diesel option", or they looked at the demand and said, "this thing doesn't sell - drop it. "

Here at the TDR, we all want a diesel. That's why we're here. Even if every one of us wants a small diesel pickup, we do not represent a statistically meaningful sample of the total US car market.

Having said that, I'd love to have a small Cummins 4 cylinder. But I'm pretty sure I'll have to build it myself.

-Ryan

 

[rscurtis]

Maybe not hundreds of thousands, but there is a market for that type of vehicle. Mahindra supposedly had dealer orders for 50,000 vehicles before that deal blew up- and that's for something with virtually no name recognition.



The reason sales were so poor years ago is that fuel was cheap at the time, and all the examples were grossly underpowered.



I don't necessarily buy the assumption that car companies always know what they're doing despite the millions spent on market research. Look at some of the "dogs" they've offered over time- and they're all guilty. Many large compaines, automotive and otherwise, survive in spite of themselves.

 

[rbattelle]

Maybe not hundreds of thousands, but there is a market for that type of vehicle. Mahindra supposedly had dealer orders for 50,000 vehicles before that deal blew up- and that's for something with virtually no name recognition.

How many times has this happened, just in the last 10 years? We regularly see threads discussing so-and-so who drew up plans and was just about to introduce a killer small diesel pickup to the US market and then some unfortunate circumstance killed it at the last minute. The EPA, fuel prices, corruption, oil companies, etc.

The reason sales were so poor years ago is that fuel was cheap at the time, and all the examples were grossly underpowered.

That's my point: diesel fuel is more expensive now. Why would anyone buy a vehicle that takes more expensive fuel, even if the mileage is better? Besides which, the difference in mileage is getting smaller as spark ignition engines become more efficient.



As for being grossly underpowered, nobody was stopping Chevy and Chrysler from seeing Ford's mistake and offering a competing vehicle with double the power. Why didn't they?

I don't necessarily buy the assumption that car companies always know what they're doing despite the millions spent on market research. Look at some of the "dogs" they've offered over time- and they're all guilty. Many large compaines, automotive and otherwise, survive in spite of themselves.

I agree with you, in general. But it's hard to believe that for the past 30 years they have consistently and with near-perfect reliability been wrong about the small diesel pickup market. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.



50,000 Mahindra diesel pickups is about 0. 8% of the total truck market in 2011 (0. 3% of the total vehicle market) . Is it really worth the risk of bringing them over here not knowing whether they'll even sell? Most American truck buyers want American trucks, and I bet that goes double for diesel truck buyers.



Remember when the new Tundra came out? People preached the end of American trucks - the Japanese knew how to do it right, and would eat our lunch. In 2010 Ford sold 528,000 F-150s. Toyota told 93,000 Tundras. What happened?



I guess I'm just refuting the subtle implication that the automotive market (or almost any market, for that matter) is the way it is because of some nefarious collusion among (apparently hyper-competent) conspirators. Call me a crazy capitalist, but I tend to think the market is what it is mostly because of supply and demand. There is no small diesel pickup because there isn't enough demand for one. Furthermore, gauging demand for them at the TDR is like gauging demand for left-handed scissors at a convention of left-handed scrapbookers.



-Ryan

 

[Road Dog]

I guess I'm just refuting the subtle implication that the automotive market (or almost any market, for that matter) is the way it is because of some nefarious collusion among (apparently hyper-competent) conspirators. Call me a crazy capitalist, but I tend to think the market is what it is mostly because of supply and demand. There is no small diesel pickup because there isn't enough demand for one. Furthermore, gauging demand for them at the TDR is like gauging demand for left-handed scissors at a convention of left-handed scrapbookers.

-Ryan

I'm a free market kind of guy but I don't think cars & trucks operate in a free market. There's a huge amount of government regulation and the engineering time to develop a new model is around five years meaning the car & truck makers are guessing what people (and the government) want in the future. Every platform/engine/drive train combination has to go through EPA and safety testing. There's only so much time to get an approved design to market. Add to that global production scheduling and a manufacturer will guess -- for example -- how many automatic and standard transmissions to order years before the vehicle is built. I remember looking at Toyota Tacoma trucks a few years back. Certain body styles came with a standard only and some came with an automatic only. So if I wanted a crew cab with a 5-speed I was out of luck.

Up here in Canada some people import Japanese Diesels (with right hand drive unfortunately). Canada allows importation of vehicles older than 15 years and in Japan a 15 year old vehicle become expensive to license and insure so they're cheap to buy and import to Canada. As long as they match some Canadian equivalent then the mods (like the headlights) are easy and the rest (like the glass) already meets North American standards. There's a bunch of importers to make the process simple.

 

[rbattelle]

I'm a free market kind of guy but I don't think cars & trucks operate in a free market. There's a huge amount of government regulation and the engineering time to develop a new model is around five years meaning the car & truck makers are guessing what people (and the government) want in the future.

Fair enough. The government mandates a lot of emissions and safety equipment, but overall configuration is still a pretty free market determined by supply and demand.



The government doesn't mandate configuration. Yet. I don't believe there are any government rules that would specifically forbid putting a diesel engine in a light pickup truck (assuming the engine passes emissions laws, and we know such an engine exists).



So then you ask yourself, why is nobody doing it? Is it because every automotive manufacturer - VW, BMW, Mercedes, Chrysler, Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota, Honda - they ALL don't realize there's this huge untapped market?



-Ryan

 

[mwilson]

Furthermore, gauging demand for them at the TDR is like gauging demand for left-handed scissors at a convention of left-handed scrapbookers.



-Ryan

Nice comparison Ryan... ... .....



Mike.