2012 Toyota HiLux Diesel Pickup

[Road Dog]

Fair enough. The government mandates a lot of emissions and safety equipment, but overall configuration is still a pretty free market determined by supply and demand.



The government doesn't mandate configuration. Yet. I don't believe there are any government rules that would specifically forbid putting a diesel engine in a light pickup truck (assuming the engine passes emissions laws, and we know such an engine exists).



So then you ask yourself, why is nobody doing it? Is it because every automotive manufacturer - VW, BMW, Mercedes, Chrysler, Ford, GM, Nissan, Toyota, Honda - they ALL don't realize there's this huge untapped market?



-Ryan

When the Liberty was available with a Diesel it had lots of torque and slightly better fuel economy. In the end it wasn't a big seller and even my local dealership said it wasn't worth the extra money.



I saw an interesting study (around 2004) where Cummins brought over a medium duty Diesel truck engine from Europe (a 4L V6) to see how it would do with EPA emissions testing. Euro testing and American testing are different so it's hard to compare the two. The goal was to determine how much effort was required to meet US emissions standards if used in an SUV. The stock engine emissions was 2-3x the allowed limits for a start. Then they tried tuning mods to bring the engine into compliance. Their conclusion was that a completely new intake/fuel/exhaust design was needed.



Countries that import their oil prize fuel economy and even the gassers do way better than ours. Countries with oil prize clean air and set much stricter emissions standards.

 

[EDankievitch]

When people hear Diesel the first thought is that old city buss or that old Mack Dump truck blowing huge black clouds of smoke. Or the VW rabbit diesel that would not start on cold days, or the Chevy love pickup with NO power. All of us here know other wise all of us own a truck that gets the job done with power to spare and almost no smoke. Those new VW's are awesome as are the Audi's and BMW's. The new product is helping change the public's feeling about Diesels. Just check out the BMW advertisement about the new Diesels. Both V and BMW plan to double the number or diesel product shipped to the USA in the coming year as sales have been strong and growing.
It's alot cheaper to build a gass car or truck, it's a quick buck with out much risk. All of the manufactures have diesel product out there, even Honda. Honda was in the process of getting it's diesel approved for sale here when our depression hit. The depression killed alot of projects (including the Chinese cars that were about to make their entrance to the usa) that were in the works as we all know. Detroit and the other car and truck need to be told that we want diesel products. Chevy is taking a leap as is Mazda. Fuel is expensive and better econ will be the driving force as to what we drive in the not so near future. Batteries and HYbreads are not the answer.
As I stated before I would buy a Jeep wrangler diesel, the same one being sold in europe today if I could at almost any price just to be able to get better MPG's. As for the Jeep Liberty they did not get enough support, the writing was on the wall, it showed up here too late, why invest money and tools in a product that would be off the market in only 2 years due to new 07 emissions rules. The few that I have seen work well give great MPG and still command a very high price in resale. It's time to really make noise and tell the Car manufactures what we really want. I don't know about you but a small truck or a jeep that could give me around 25-35 Mpg and the life of our Cummin's trucks would fit my life at any cost, it would pay for it self every time I used it, and as fuel becomes even higher in price the pay back would be even faster. I was one of the people standing in line waiting with my deposit for one of the first Mahinda trucks. I had the chance to see and sit in one at Global V's headquarters two years ago. It was a really nice truck, well built for the guy that has to work for a living. And it would deliver around 25-28 real world MPG. The time has never been better push for the products we really want. Make some NOISE!!!!!!

 

[Bob4x4]

I'm a free market kind of guy but I don't think cars & trucks operate in a free market. There's a huge amount of government regulation and the engineering time to develop a new model is around five years meaning the car & truck makers are guessing what people (and the government) want in the future. Every platform/engine/drive train combination has to go through EPA and safety testing. There's only so much time to get an approved design to market. Add to that global production scheduling and a manufacturer will guess -- for example -- how many automatic and standard transmissions to order years before the vehicle is built. I remember looking at Toyota Tacoma trucks a few years back. Certain body styles came with a standard only and some came with an automatic only. So if I wanted a crew cab with a 5-speed I was out of luck.



Up here in Canada some people import Japanese Diesels (with right hand drive unfortunately). Canada allows importation of vehicles older than 15 years and in Japan a 15 year old vehicle become expensive to license and insure so they're cheap to buy and import to Canada. As long as they match some Canadian equivalent then the mods (like the headlights) are easy and the rest (like the glass) already meets North American standards. There's a bunch of importers to make the process simple.

Your 5 years is way off base... ..... Much quicker than that

 

[DonFitzwater]

We could only be so lucky to have Toyota market the Hilux stateside. I drove the Hilux and diesel Frontier (Nissan) while working in Trinidad and was very impressed. They were great little trucks that had good power and are very reliable.

 

[EDankievitch]

like i said over and over it"s time to make noise!!!!!!! Tell detroit what we want!!!!

 

[Dl5treez]

I have a 1983 Dodge Ram 50, a rebadged Mitsubishi Mighty Max.

4x4, diesel. Mitsubishi 4D55. Has comparable power to the gasoline engine, about like a Toyota 22R.

It gets 30mpg pretty much doing whatever... and that's old technology. The engine will outlast the truck.

There is a early 80's Ford Ranger diesel running around the TDR here that pulls down over 40mpg. I don't think it's ever been worked on outside of normal maintenance.


Two of the major problems with them, in terms of your typical American auto consumer.

1. they're "stinky"
2. they're "slow"
2a. if they're not "slow" they're "smoky"


Even today in 2012, other countries with less restrictive emissions requirements for diesels have smoky, stinky rigs. It is accepted there as sort of a necessary evil to gain fuel economy and longevity. People in other parts of the world will keep a vehicle until it is completely and utterly dead. They don't trade them out every 3 years like they do here in the United Consumer States of America.

Part of that is vehicles, especially nice ones like a diesel 4x4 Hilux, are thought of as luxury items to improve quality of life, not as necessary items "needed" for normal life, and they're quite expensive. The majority of Americans are too wasteful and short term to buy anything "for the long term" anymore... . as much as we enthusiasts wish it to be true, we are NOT in the majority.

 

[Road Dog]

1. they're "stinky"

2. they're "slow"

2a. if they're not "slow" they're "smoky"

Are we talking about old Diesels or Americans?

 

[Mhannink]

I don't think Cummins has a V-8. :-laf

New Cummins V6 and V8 Diesel Engines - Exclusive Preview - Diesel Power Magazine



i read this when it came out, the only thing i can add to that is i heard through my grandma that cummins was opening a new plant for producing these engines. she was following the company's stock and asked me what i knew about it and what i thought it would do for stocks.



also cummins has the isf3. 8 that is meant for on highway. looks to be perfect for a mid-size, or half ton pickup.



Cummins Engines - On-Highway - Light Commercial Vehicle - ISF3. 8



there is also a 2. 8 as well.



the 3. 8 crossed my mind for a late model cummins swap into the above discussed 1/2ton pickup. hmm... ... ... maybe that new ford im looking at... ... ... ... ..... well ive got 4 years of engineering to figure it out.

 

[MChrist]

The numbers for the 3. 8 in the above article are quite impressive!! Actually, the torque is what impresses me the most, 443 at 1300 rpm.
This made me look up power numbers for other diesel motors:

Isuzu 5. 2: 215/452@1850
Isuzu 4. 8: 190/380(ish)
Mercedes 3. 0 in Sprinter: 188/325@1400 (new version)
154/280 (previous version few years ago)
That puts the new Cummins 3. 8 right there with the new, improved 5. 2 from Isuzu from a torque number comparison. Now, the 5. 2 torque is coming in at 1850 rpm. The torque at 1600(manual trans version) is 387!
These numbers, if accurate from Cummins, mean the 3. 8 is really aimed for low rpm power, since torque numbers are quite high at only 1300 rpm, and hp is actually quite low, at 125 hp.
Next up, engine weight. The Isuzu 5. 2, if memory serves, is shockingly around 1100 lbs!! No aluminum head on THIS Duramax motor, boys... the Cummins 3. 8 was around 700-800? (correction... 620lbs!!)

All this is quite interesting. . and I will be following.

 

[Regcabguy]

I have a 1983 Dodge Ram 50, a rebadged Mitsubishi Mighty Max.



4x4, diesel. Mitsubishi 4D55. Has comparable power to the gasoline engine, about like a Toyota 22R.



It gets 30mpg pretty much doing whatever... and that's old technology. The engine will outlast the truck.



There is a early 80's Ford Ranger diesel running around the TDR here that pulls down over 40mpg. I don't think it's ever been worked on outside of normal maintenance.





Two of the major problems with them, in terms of your typical American auto consumer.



1. they're "stinky"

2. they're "slow"

2a. if they're not "slow" they're "smoky"





Even today in 2012, other countries with less restrictive emissions requirements for diesels have smoky, stinky rigs. It is accepted there as sort of a necessary evil to gain fuel economy and longevity. People in other parts of the world will keep a vehicle until it is completely and utterly dead. They don't trade them out every 3 years like they do here in the United Consumer States of America.



Part of that is vehicles, especially nice ones like a diesel 4x4 Hilux, are thought of as luxury items to improve quality of life, not as necessary items "needed" for normal life, and they're quite expensive. The majority of Americans are too wasteful and short term to buy anything "for the long term" anymore... . as much as we enthusiasts wish it to be true, we are NOT in the majority.

Actually do partly to the recession,American's are keeping their vehicles about ten yrs now. There was a news blip stating that. I was amazed.

 

[Mhannink]

actually read some of the articale. this was the part i really liked





Miles Per Gallon

In a test of a Durango SUV with the 4. 7L gasoline V-8, engineers measured a combined city/highway rating of 15. 3 mpg. The diesel V-6 achieved 22. 1 mpg in the same test, a 44 percent improvement. The diesel V-8 in the Ram 1500 did even better with a 49 percent improvement. It scored a combined city/highway rating of 21. 7 mpg, compared to a Hemi that was rated at 14. 6 mpg. In highway driving simulations, the diesel Durango made 25 mpg and the Ram 1/2-ton sipped just 24. 6 mpg of diesel.



those are some pretty decent number, interesting how the 1500 which is significantly bigger and heavier got nearly the same mileage. that right there would put and end to the s-10, dakota, ranger sized pickup.

 

[Mhannink]

some of you might like this



http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2002/session8/2002_deer_stang.pdf

 

[rbattelle]

i read this when it came out, the only thing i can add to that is i heard through my grandma that cummins was opening a new plant for producing these engines. she was following the company's stock and asked me what i knew about it and what i thought it would do for stocks.



also cummins has the isf3. 8 that is meant for on highway. looks to be perfect for a mid-size, or half ton pickup.

I don't believe Cummins will ever produce those engines (notice that article is now 4 years old). Neither do I believe they are building a new plant - I've read absolutely nothing of the sort in any of the usual trade publications.



The QSK95 represents the largest investment in an engine in company history, and includes new facilities to manufacture it (and, eventually, the QSK120). I don't believe they can afford to build another new plant for some time.



Furthermore, I don't believe we will ever see an ISF3. 8 in this country. No market for it, no matter how much all us left-handed scrapbookers would like to believe.



-Ryan

 

[Mhannink]

I don't believe Cummins will ever produce those engines (notice that article is now 4 years old). Neither do I believe they are building a new plant - I've read absolutely nothing of the sort in any of the usual trade publications.



The QSK95 represents the largest investment in an engine in company history, and includes new facilities to manufacture it (and, eventually, the QSK120). I don't believe they can afford to build another new plant for some time.



Furthermore, I don't believe we will ever see an ISF3. 8 in this country. No market for it, no matter how much all us left-handed scrapbookers would like to believe.



-Ryan

i dont know about that, the last link i posted is a report to the doe from cummins, its also talks about a military app. that articale in 2009 is an update from the articale i read back in like 2005 2006, i remeber reading it in highschool back then. so they have definately made some big strides. both ford and dodge and maybe chevy talked have all talked about a 1/2ton diesel. the engine plant i heard annouced from cummins was soon after hearing about the engine, so again 05 or 06, i checked cummins history and they only display back to 2007 and i didnt see anything but i could have missed it. give it time, i think they will produce the engine eventually. despite what some groups have tried to do diesels are still growing and developing. look at the automotive, more and more companies are offering diesels in their cars, and with diesel making its mark in racing, people are going to want one in their cars.



as for the 3. 8 who knows, im hoping it does make it here.

 

[Nyoest]

the 3. 8 crossed my mind for a late model cummins swap into the above discussed 1/2ton pickup. hmm... ... ... maybe that new ford im looking at... ... ... ... ..... well ive got 4 years of engineering to figure it out.

Just make sure when you get done with your swap you don't have to pull the cab to change the oil filter.

 

[EDankievitch]

If we demand it they will build it..... Make Noise People! Let Detroit know and know loud!!!

 

[Mhannink]

Just make sure when you get done with your swap you don't have to pull the cab to change the oil filter.

ill do a remote mount just to make sure i dont have to.

 

[MChrist]

If we demand it they will build it..... Make Noise People! Let Detroit know and know loud!!!

I agree that it may be nice to have the option, but what circumstances would need to come together for a purchase of this sort to occur? If that small diesel was only available in a half ton, would you buy a half ton, knowing you would never be able to tow or haul as much? If the small diesel was available in the 3/4 and 1 ton, would you choose it over a comparably priced 6. 7, knowing you will not be able to tow whatever you want just to get a few extra mpg?



Don't get me wrong, I think it would make a great option, but from a business standpoint, I don't think it'll happen. Too much money to invest for not enough demand.

 

[EDankievitch]

For my every day drive I'd have a half ton in a heart beat I don't need a 7,400 lb truck every day. My boat and trailer is only 6,000 lbs. A toyota tacoma would do the job just they don't offer a diesel and when my 05 ram gives me bettermpg than the last toyota that I owned... . you see where I'm going with this...

 

[rscurtis]

Yes. Global Vehicles supposedly determined that Mahindra's first year sales would be about 50,000 trucks. I definitely believe there's a market for a small diesel PU that can do 30+ MPG. The fact that none of the "big" three and none of the imports have offered it in the USA does not mean the market is not there.



Mazda will have a diesel in the US in 2013 or '14, and Chrysler will offer a diesel option in the Jeep and Dodge Durango next year.