Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) 24V valve guides!!!

[ynot]

Hey guys. Hate to beg, but time is limited. I have 8 junk valve guides at 100,000mls, and there are none available anywhere that I can find (in short notice), as they just punch a 7mm hole in the head for valves. I know Cummins doesn't just junk the head casting when guides puke. Any thoughts??????? Thanks... T

 

[A Johnson]

Here is a quote from my source.



"Valve Seat Inserts - Currently there are no service replacement valve seat inserts. If a crack occurs across the valve seat, the cylinder head must be replaced. If on a higher horsepower ISB a valve seat cracks or comes out, the cylinder head must be replaced. Work is being done to develop service valve seat inserts for availability sometime in late 2001.



Valve Guides - The ISB/QSB uses parent bore valve guides. If the guides are out of specification the cylinder head must be replaced because there are currently no oversize guides available. Work is being done to develop service valve guides for availability sometime in late 2001. "



Now I know this isn't any help, but I couldn't find any documents for the introduction of an oversize guide. You would expect it by now as they said late 2001, and as you said I don't believe they junk a head. Have you asked if Cummins offers a Recon head? If they don't then they probably aren't making guides yet either.



Will look some more.



A Johnson

 

[ynot]

Re-Con...

Cummins has offered the head with a Re-Con number since early 2000 for $1000. I'll buy a head as a last resort. I'm not real happy about having to look at replacing the head at 1/3 the life of the engine. Not to mention all the port work and stuff... I really don't understand why Cummins calls them "oversized guides", as they aren't press-in in the first place. To punch out the head and drive in a replacement guide, that would still make it a "standard bore" guide. I also know for fact that Re-Con uses a drive-in guide, but no number is available to the public (for now). That will change by tomorrow, if I can't find a different source. Thanks for the reply... T

 

[Jetpilot]

Give Piers a call he might can help you out.



Doug

 

[PROSTAR190]

Ynot,



How did you determine that your seats were bad? The reason I ask is that I have developed alot of what I believe to be valve noise. I was planning to adjust them this weekend just wondering what to look for.

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

you would think k-line would make a insert for our heads. but maybe not



jim

 

[ynot]

updates...

OK, here we go. Went and measured the guide ID myself. 13 were way out, 8 were borderline, but met "re-usable" specs. Junked them all/ Start from scratch. Cummins does not and will never sell their replacement guides. They say "buy a head or a long block". Now that's service... The only hardened replacement guides available in the US are from PEP Engine Parts, LV. NV. Ordered 24 aired in for tomorrow... Seats and valves were perfect (one intake had . 00034 wear). Milled, ported and flowed head for build tomorrow. PROSTAR, When the seats wear, you lose lash, not gain, unless the lifter, cam, rocker face and bore, and valve tip wear with it. On a '99 with top end noise, I'd just check the lash anyway. Not a big deal. I set them at . 009 and . 019, and have had to re-set more than half of them when I had the cover off three times in the last 100,000. Thanks for the help guys... T

 

[PROSTAR190]

YNOT



Thanks for the info I will pull the cover of Saturday. I am really counting on this engine to go at least another150k and hopfully 250k before I start thinking about a major. If it is time then I suppose it is time for bigger cam o-ring and ported head ATS with twins bolted to it.

 

[Silver Bullet Ram]

with failure of injection pumps, lift pumps, head gaskets and now valve guides, i would come to the conclusion that these 24v are junk. I think when my 24v comes apart i may put a 12v back in its place. There was a guy here locally that was in the paper who got one million miles out of his 1995 ram with a 12v, never did a thing to it.



Gary

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

And I have little doubt that in a few more years, we'll be seeing 24 valvers doing the same thing - the 12 valve jobs have just been around longer, and blowing their OWN share of head gaskets and other associated ills in the process... Some of us blow this stuff all outta proportion - lose a $1200 pump at 100,000 miles, and it's a major catastrophe and unacceptable - but lose a $3000 auto transmission at the same mileage, and THAT'S not so bad - it's all a matter of perspective... it's a pretty rare Cummins that'll wear out the valve guides at so early a mileage - and I'll guarantee you that unless I had other reasons to do a complete head exchange, I'd find a FAR more economical method to renew the existing guides - it's not exactly rocket science...

 

[LSMITH]

Uhhh, before we jump on the "Cummins is Junk" boat some of us should ask Tony what kind of power his making, how long he has been significantly above stock power, and how he drives the truck. There is more to the story for sure, and whether or not the valveguides were premature is up for discussion.

 

[LSMITH]

It IS pee POOR that Cummins does not offer guides as replacement parts, and it is worse yet that the B5. 9 has been made without them and without hardened valve seats. For the extra 100 bucks TOPS to make an engine it is pathetic. Must be upper management or bean counters or both responsible for those decisions.

 

[ynot]

Hey guys. Sorry so long. Just got an E on the post going awry. LSmith, the seats are hardened. The valves are stellite. The guides are "parent bore", which is the standard for late model stuff, gas or diesel. The casting itself is a new iron/ nickle/ carbon cast, that is actually a very fine material, much better than the 12V's, and heavier and harder than the hubs of hell, hence the lack of hardened replaceable guides (weigh a twelve valve head or similar size head, then try to lift this one). My "premature" failure has been attributed to several factors, after extensive failure analysis (didn't have time to delve into it last week). The number one cause seems to be the lack of Amsoil (or any other pure synthetic) seeping past the rather extreme valve seals. The guides run pretty dry. Cummins and other HO builders say petroleum based or blends only. NO PURE SYNTHETIC IN ISB's. I did not know this until now. The second being the fact that, yes, this pig is pumped up pretty high (check profile for the build). It has seen 32-36psi boost on every shift for over 90,000 miles, and USED to regularly hit upper 40's to mid 50's boost messing around. After the pump, timing, head deal over the last month, it now slips my 600hp Southbend at 1/2 throttle on stage one at 40psi, so the power to the ground is kinda ridiculous for the way I drive. Proper lube would have helped this, but premature failure was almost a given. I AM MY OWN WARRENTY STATION!!!!!! Not cheap, but fun for a while... Gary KJ6Q, guides were under $100 including overnight FedEx from NV. Entire head job with extensive porting was just over $300. Much better than a $1000 ReCon... Silver Bullet, they really are good motors. Try to get this much torque out of a V motor and see what you get, then try to make it hold together. Pop an injector on a PSD or Isuzu, $320 a piece minimum plus labor. Pop a head gasket or more, and the truck is totaled unless you re-finance. I'll stick with Cummins to the end... PROSTAR, hope it went well, but the plan sounds right if it didn't!! Later guys... T

 

[lmills]

Well, I am glad to hear that all went well

 

[TowPro]

I did not know this, where can we find the info you did on this?

Originally posted by ynot

NO PURE SYNTHETIC IN ISB's. I did not know this until now.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by ynot



The guides run pretty dry. Cummins and other HO builders say petroleum based or blends only. NO PURE SYNTHETIC IN ISB's. I did not know this until now.

:-{} This ought to be a good discussion soon :-laf



I run Rotella T 15w40 and change it every 5K miles with a Mopar or Fleetguard filter. Glad I won't have any problems with my Valve guides from running synthetics

 

[ynot]

Talk to your local Cummins dealer about the latest and greatest oil spec. s and recommendations. I talk to great Plains in Des Moines. Cummins Blue has been made to their spec. s by Valvoline forever. The Premium Blue 2000 is a blend. The old blue was all petro. They are both being replaced by Blue Extreme, which is basically the 2000. They say they haven't had good luck with straight synthetics in the past, but wouldn't elaborate on specific models or their failures (tho the ISX's are known to "spontaneously combust" into pieces [i saw one. it was really cool. it was held together by the valve cover and coolant hoses] on synthetics). I called Cummins tech and all they could tell me is that "straight synthetics are not recommended". No other info (they kinda sounded like bone-heads reading from a manual or something. They weren't to slick on much of anything). Pitbull, Delvac is a little cleaner and rated higher than Rotella (they've been running on reputation for sales for years). The Mopar filter is the Fleetgaurd standard filter, and not a Stratopore. The latter of which is much better for not much more. I'm getting out of this one now. Ya'll have fun with it... T

 

[TowPro]

Sorry if I sounded like "prove it". Not meant that way. My new rig is a lease, I put 12K miles on it per year at the most, it ain't worth running synethics in the engine when you know your going to let it go with less then 60K on it.

Originally posted by ynot

Talk to your local Cummins dealer about the latest and greatest oil spec. s and recommendations. I talk to great Plains in Des Moines. Cummins Blue has been made to their spec. s by Valvoline forever. The Premium Blue 2000 is a blend. The old blue was all petro. They are both being replaced by Blue Extreme, which is basically the 2000. They say they haven't had good luck with straight synthetics in the past, but wouldn't elaborate on specific models or their failures (tho the ISX's are known to "spontaneously combust" into pieces [i saw one. it was really cool. it was held together by the valve cover and coolant hoses] on synthetics). I called Cummins tech and all they could tell me is that "straight synthetics are not recommended". No other info (they kinda sounded like bone-heads reading from a manual or something. They weren't to slick on much of anything). Pitbull, Delvac is a little cleaner and rated higher than Rotella (they've been running on reputation for sales for years). The Mopar filter is the Fleetgaurd standard filter, and not a Stratopore. The latter of which is much better for not much more. I'm getting out of this one now. Ya'll have fun with it... T

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

HMMMmm - in light of the recent posts above, my earlier suggestion as to Knurling the stock guides seems even more a good possibility... In the case of valve guides, it's generally similar to running a thread-tap sort of device down thru the guide, creating thread-like channels and slightly raising the adjacent bore metal - which is then re-sized with an appropriate reamer. The finished job renews the guide to desired size - and also provides improved oiling due to the newly provided oil channels that flow and hold lubricating oil for the assembly... In those dim days of yesteryear, those guides outlasted the originals, and were used by many racers due to reduced friction and slight power increase...

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by ynot



Pitbull, Delvac is a little cleaner and rated higher than Rotella (they've been running on reputation for sales for years). The Mopar filter is the Fleetgaurd standard filter, and not a Stratopore.

Tony not an issue with me. If I drive this truck for 150K miles it will take me 8 years and my wife will be in shock. I've never driven one car/truck for more than 60K miles in my life. I get bored to easy. With the use of Rotella T 15w40 and Mopar filters changed every 5K miles I am sure that my mighty Cummins in stock form will be good for longer than I will ever have it. What do you think 500K miles