2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission 2nd Gen Steering

[ssalmons]

Hi guys: I have been out for a while and have returned to find if there has been any kind of fix for the crappy steering on the 01 4x4. I now have 82k on my truck and the steering still sucks. I pretty much have resigned to the fact that its just the way it is!! I have searched and read about the 3 gen box and some of the other stuff but I do not want to throw away any more money until someone knows for sure what the fix is. Dodge knows good and well that they produced an inferior product and should make it right but - well you know. My dash has fragged like some of the other members and also my lift pump gave out on a road trip and cost me $1100 to repair. I have been a solid Mopar enthusiast for over 30 yrs and still have my "70 Cuda" but I am not impressed anymore. If I could convince Toyota into installing a Cummins in one of their trucks I think we would have something. Besides Toyota is made in the USA while my Dodge was made in Mexico!!

Sorry to rant but I have just about had it up to my eyeballs!!

 

[WPeschel]

Hi guys: I have been out for a while and have returned to find if there has been any kind of fix for the crappy steering on the 01 4x4. I now have 82k on my truck and the steering still sucks. I pretty much have resigned to the fact that its just the way it is!! I have searched and read about the 3 gen box and some of the other stuff but I do not want to throw away any more money until someone knows for sure what the fix is. Dodge knows good and well that they produced an inferior product and should make it right but - well you know. My dash has fragged like some of the other members and also my lift pump gave out on a road trip and cost me $1100 to repair. I have been a solid Mopar enthusiast for over 30 yrs and still have my "70 Cuda" but I am not impressed anymore. If I could convince Toyota into installing a Cummins in one of their trucks I think we would have something. Besides Toyota is made in the USA while my Dodge was made in Mexico!!

Sorry to rant but I have just about had it up to my eyeballs!!

I started with a DSS it helped alot but I still have wander on the highway. . Check all the tierod ends. . I just ordered the 03 track bar and intend to use a 03 adjustable TB... Next I am going to buy a 3 turn steering box from PSC. . Dave M on here that has this same set up, I am sure he will chime in...

 

[Dave M]

I agree with "WPechel". You have to start by looking for any loose tie rod ends or ends of track bar. Any loose joint (even 1/8 inch play) will be magnified in the steering response, it seems. Get under the truck and have someone turn the steering wheel back and forth while you look for any play in any tie rod end. Fix that first.



Then look very closely at the track bar ends. This is critical. If any movement at all in the track bar frame end joint... there is your problem. Also make sure no play in the other end of track bar at the axle. Then put a wrench on it and tighten it (18mm)... torque is 130 ft-lbs for my 97.



Also look at the control arm bushings. I replaced mine with Energy Suspension poly bushings from summitt racing. At least re-torue them or replace them (about $80). I would check torque on everything including your shocks.



Jack truck up and grap top and bottom of wheel and look for play and again side to side... . you are checking ball joints and bearings for slop. Fix it.



Now you are ready to upgrade the track bar. I'd recommend the Solid Steel 3rd gen TB conversion bracket and SS 3rd gen track bar (I used the SS adjustable one for an extra $100 over non-adjustable for a 2 inch lift if I decide to do that later). Why 3rd gen bolt thru TB? I like the 3rd gen bar over others because it eliminates the ball joint or heim joint at the frame end of track bar... . resulting in no joint to fail. Now its just a bolt thru bushing in place of the joint (ball or heim). That's my opinion... . you will most certainly get others opinion on this point. You decide which track bar... but get an after market one like SS, Thuren, DT PRO FAb, and probably others. Again... my opinion.



The disadvantage is the extra cost of conversion bracket plus TB but I think its worth it in the long run. Lots of things can cause loose front ends and I may have missed some. I feel, once you eliminate the tie rods, ball joints and hub bearings, start with the track bar and go to the steering box.



You are tired of reading so cont'd on next post... ...

 

[Dave M]

Ok... you've replaced the track bar. I would look carefully at the steering box and look at the output shaft and pitman arm for slop or a lag from input shaft turing to output shaft turning. No... I suggest the 3 turn steering box from PSC. I can steer with one finger. Another one is PSS Power Steering Services. And of course there are others choices too. You decide but 3 turn verses the stock 4 turn (usually the case for stock) seem to help our trucks. Turn your whhel from stop to stop as you count revolutions of steering wheel. If its 4 turn... I say replace it.



Now add the DSS Dodge steering stabilizer. It helps protect the steering box output shaft from strain and stiffens the frame rails. Lots of posts on the DSS.



I will continue later since I have to go. . ,



Dave

 

[WPeschel]

Dave how do you tell if your control arm bushings are out???? Do you have part numbers from summit????

 

[Dave M]

Dave how do you tell if your control arm bushings are out???? Do you have part numbers from summit????

I don't know of any way to tell if they are bad because cracks in the rubber are normal with age and don't necessarily mean they are bad. I just replaced my with poly bushings since they should last forever and are stiffer. I have never found a way to test them for bad. I'd consider replacing the control arms with after market adjustable ones that give more caster adjust... but... they cost a bit to add... . but look around at them before replacing the bushings, especially if you are considering a lift since they will then need replacing.



I believe you have a 98 4x4 3500 so I'll get a link to summitt for you. My 97 I just replaced the rubber part by heating them till they poped out. My metal sleeves were re-used... I had no choice here. If you get the ones that keep the metal sleeves (like my 97) then I'll tell you how to replace the bushings alone. Some years you replace the metal sleeves and bushings which require pressing the metal sleeves in/out... . sounds like machine shop needed.



Here are a few bushings to choose in red or black... I used red:



Front Control Arm Bushings - summitracing.com



I also got Energy suspension sway bar greasable bushings too.



I found more install info at energy suspensions web site.

 

[Dave M]

Here is a link to Install instructions I found on the PDF link above. It says you will re-use the metal sleeves like I did. It's probably easier since there is no pressing out/in of metal sleeves that hold the bushings.



http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/ens-17373.pdf

 

[WPeschel]

I don't know of any way to tell if they are bad because cracks in the rubber are normal with age and don't necessarily mean they are bad. I just replaced my with poly bushings since they should last forever and are stiffer. I have never found a way to test them for bad. I'd consider replacing the control arms with after market adjustable ones that give more caster adjust... but... they cost a bit to add... . but look around at them before replacing the bushings, especially if you are considering a lift since they will then need replacing.



I believe you have a 98 4x4 3500 so I'll get a link to summitt for you. My 97 I just replaced the rubber part by heating them till they poped out. My metal sleeves were re-used... I had no choice here. If you get the ones that keep the metal sleeves (like my 97) then I'll tell you how to replace the bushings alone. Some years you replace the metal sleeves and bushings which require pressing the metal sleeves in/out... . sounds like machine shop needed.



Here are a few bushings to choose in red or black... I used red:



Front Control Arm Bushings - summitracing.com



I also got Energy suspension sway bar greasable bushings too.



I found more install info at energy suspensions web site.

What is the diff between the 63 dollar ones and the 89 dollar ones??? I have 2 1/2 inch leveling kit with a full heavy steel replacement bumper on front. . My truck sits perfectly level... The truck drove the same before i put the level kit on so I dont think I need the longer control arms... .

 

[Dave M]

What is the diff between the 63 dollar ones and the 89 dollar ones??? I have 2 1/2 inch leveling kit with a full heavy steel replacement bumper on front. . My truck sits perfectly level... The truck drove the same before i put the level kit on so I dont think I need the longer control arms... .

I don't know what the difference is but I used the ones like the $88 ones. OH... . I just found what it is. If you look at the $66 ones and "show all applications" they are for 2wd independent suspension. Computer searches are not always accurate. I may not have seached on just 4wd so the link gave you both 2wd and 4wd... . sorry for the slip.

 

[Dave M]

I don't have the leveling kit but I do have a HUGE Ranchhand replacement front bumper and all the stuff i've done works with it. Looks like you just need to replace the control arm bushings. I did it to eliminate them as a problem.



I also replaced all 4 shocks with Bilsteins but I'd take a look at the Bilstein 5100 verses my Bilsteins. Maybe they are better. Be carefull to think of saving the old shock sleeves that the bolts go thru in case the new ones fit too loose. Mine were ok but I read posts later regarding that.



The last thing I found ( 3 months ago) was all this time my rotors were contributing to my front end sake but I didn't suspect them till they got so bad a slight touch of brakes sent it shaking. I replaced the rotors with NAPA drilled/slotted ones and that was the finally cure for me. The calipers were sticking also so I replaced the calipers sleeves/rubber, applied silicone brake lube to all silding surfaces after sanding all contact points smooth.



Truck now rides like a sports car... . I love driving it now.



Edit: The only other thing have have bought but not installed is the sleeve in the steering column to fix the play in the steering column shaft. I also feel my front coil springs are sagging and need replaced.



Dave

 

[PRattenbury]

Wesley, if you get someone to sit in the cab of the truck with the engine running and squat down beside the truck near the front wheel so you can observe the control arm ends, have the person in the cab shift from drive to reverse a couple times with the brake on. If there's any play in the bushings you should be able to see it.

 

[AClayton]

Thanks DaveM and PRattenbury as well as WPechel for starting the thread. My 01' has experienced this lately has only been getting worse. I asked this question also last week and was told by a member to do a search on this forum for 'Death Wobble' and the information was invaluable!I've ordered all the necessary parts and hope to get it in soon. Many items that I ordered were the exact same stuff that DaveM recommended to you. Good Luck!!

 

[WPeschel]

Wesley, if you get someone to sit in the cab of the truck with the engine running and squat down beside the truck near the front wheel so you can observe the control arm ends, have the person in the cab shift from drive to reverse a couple times with the brake on. If there's any play in the bushings you should be able to see it.

Makes sense... I will have to have a buddy cause my Girl doesnt know how to drive a standard... I will be a task to hold the brake and let out on the clutch without it dieing out... Thanks Wesley

 

[Dave M]

Wesley, if you get someone to sit in the cab of the truck with the engine running and squat down beside the truck near the front wheel so you can observe the control arm ends, have the person in the cab shift from drive to reverse a couple times with the brake on. If there's any play in the bushings you should be able to see it.

That's a little harder to do with a 5spd man but I see your point. You are putting stress forward and backward on the bushings and looking for play. I think I'd replace them just to get rid of the rubber bushings and go with the stiffer poly bushings even if they check out good.



One other thing I replaced on front end was the steering stabilizers. Since they are a shock, to check them you probably need to remove from truck. My old stabilizer was real stiff so I replaced both of them. When I replaced the steering gear I also found my pitman arm threads were wavy and worn so I replaced it with a TRW one. I also replaced the sway bar end links with NAPA ones but there are some better after market ones available if you do a TDR search that I would use.

EDIT ADD:If you replace the steering box, I'd recommend replace the pitman arm too so you don't mess up the new steering gear output shaft threads

.



As anyone can see there are a lot of stuff that can contribute or be the sole cause of front end play. I never replaced my ball joints or unitized hub bearing in front because they all checked out OK.



It sure is nice to drive this truck now. Finally, I have considered converting steering rods from "inverted Y"to "T" cross-over steering. if I need to replace tie rods and such I will convert then.

 

[PSoffe]

Thanks guys



I started to do a search on this topic and it just so happens that it was at the top of the list in this mornings posts.



Who has these 3rd gen parts, steer box and TB? My plan is to go through all of the joints this weekend and inspect them, at 210000 miles I am positive i'll have the credit card out. It has gotten so ridiculous trying to keep this thing in a straight line I am back and forth from 9-3 o'clock on wheel just trying to keep it in my lane.



My only comment would be regarding the urethane bushings. As a former designer of these very bushings these are what I would consider "servicable" parts and need to be monitored for lubrication as no urethane bushing is self lubricating. Plus your life span is alot shorter compared to rubber when lubrication is not addressed. Not to mention that it will transmit more road noise and vibration through the system. I had a set on my Jeep Grand Cherokee (same suspension design) and while it fixed the death wobble due to improper caster they did wear much faster than rubber and needed to be lubricated constantly even with the magic grease that Energy Syuspension supplied.



Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.



Knowing the obvious in regards to key component wear. How does the steer box fit into this equation? Does it suffer from excessive play as is the feeling at the wheel. Or is it just the poor design of a straight axle steering system. My old Jeep CJ5 was the same way, see sawing all overthe highway.



Thanks again for any and all info

 

[WPeschel]

I noticed most of my slack was from the pitman arm rod that sticks out of the steering box. . The DSS fixed alot of the play. . I still plan on getting the PSC steering box but I have decided to upgrade the track bar first cause I already have the track bar off of a 03... I bought my DSS from PSC website it was alot cheaper than anywhere else... I was told later that it is not built by Solid Steel, wich is the most popular and the original builder of the DSS, and some ppl had trouble fitting them onto their rigs. . Mine went on in 15 minutes with air tools... No trouble at all...

 

[Dave M]

I see what you mean by the poly bushings wearing faster but I believe since they are stiffer than the stiffer poly bushings won't flex much and therefore may help reduce the front end play these truck get. I prefer a stiffer front end and shorter lifespan of bushings to anything that will add to front end looseness.



My opinion is the steering gear (and track bar) is one of the critical componets contributing to front end play in steering. I think maily if there is any slop in the steering gear you are gonna feel it in the front end. Since are trucks are some heavy and prone to front end shake due to the poor steering design, any looseness in front end components (like the steering gear) will be magnified in the feel and handling of the steering.



In addition, there are many threads that have addressed the 3 turn steering gear verses 4 turn. I am not sure I totally understand why the 3 turn is better but I think if you front end is loose due to componet wear then as you saw the wheel back and forth you will have less distance to saw with 3 verses 4 turn. So it seems the shorter turn will help stabilize the steering. I do feel if you have a "loose feeling" front end replace the box with a 3 turn.



I used the PSC SG-841M 3 turn and love it. As a bonus it has lighter valving so the steering effort is "One finger" steering feel... I love that... and my wife REALLy likes it. The down side is it won't return to center after a turn so I have to manually return the steering wheel to center or go in a circle. Took some getting used to. My FRAME alignment shop explained that there is such little steering resistance in the gear that it won't return on its own. Its worth it to me to have the light steering feel.



I really enjoy driving this truck now more than our car.



As can be seen, there are many factors that contribute to "loose steering". I just tried to address all of them to fix my steering. I am $$$ poorer but very happy with my results so far.



Good luck,

Dave

 

[Dave M]

I didn't intend to dominate this thread, but I really wanted to share my battle and success with this loose front end steering and my successful results.



Another thing I replaced were the stabilizers (I have 2). I don't think they can be checked unless you remove them. Off the truck mine were stiff and did not return compared to the new Rancho's I put on. I also found a loose caster bolt/nut that kept loosening up so I replaced it.



My truck also was pulling to right (but alignment was in spec) and ruining right front tires so I found a good FRAME and alignment shop who replaced an offset cylinder in the right front knuckle to add a little negative camber to the right which cured my problem. Thats another LONG story and thread.



I found a bad pitman arm when replacing the steering box. The pitman arm threads were wavy and worn so I replaced it with a TRW one.



Good luck,

Dave

 

[WPeschel]

I didn't intend to dominate this thread, but I really wanted to share my battle and success with this loose front end steering and my successful results.



Another thing I replaced were the stabilizers (I have 2). I don't think they can be checked unless you remove them. Off the truck mine were stiff and did not return compared to the new Rancho's I put on. I also found a loose caster bolt/nut that kept loosening up so I replaced it.



My truck also was pulling to right (but alignment was in spec) and ruining right front tires so I found a good FRAME and alignment shop who replaced an offset cylinder in the right front knuckle to add a little negative camber to the right which cured my problem. Thats another LONG story and thread.



I found a bad pitman arm when replacing the steering box. The thread ere wavy and worn so I replaced it with a TRW one.



Good luck,

Dave

I think it is good to hear first hand experience from someone who has dealt with all the steering demons... I am glad to hear that your steering is where you want it... The only thing I am not sure if I will like is the steering will not return to center... I'm sure that if I get it I will learn to get used to it...

 

[Dave M]

I wish you could drive my truck to see what its like. The light steering is worth it but I almost went in the ditch the first time. Here's the thing, the steering is EFFORTLESS and its only 1 1/2 turns at most to center. I can hook one finger on the wheel and spin it real fast and easy (be carefull or you will oversteer) but you get used to not oversteering as well.



My wife and 2 teenager's drive it with no problem. When I take it for tires I tell the tech to be careful and explain to manually return it to center. Everyone of them go out of their way to find me and compliment me on the trucks steering response. It was freaky the first time I drove it but it was like... ... . WOW... I LIKE IT! Its a kick to drive it now.