3500 SRW Towing 18K Concerns

[Bohemian]

:RantOn.


There is always a trade off in parts inventories where one chooses to stock one stronger part or multiple levels of parts. Specs are due to the weakest link in a component. One or a few over specified parts does not change the spec of the overall component.

This is getting to idiocy. People trying to justify their abuse of specifications. Do it, it's your truck and trailer. Stop trying to assuage your behavior by encouraging others to follow your abuse.

The reality. There is room in the specs for a buffer. They are not set at the critical edge of failure. I expect sane people don't want to be on the critical edge of failure and disaster. Going over specs increases wear, decreases reliability, decreases durability, decreases safety, increases liability, increases the chance of trouble . Over a little has a small effect (probably insignificant, maybe) . Over more and it increases faster, Even more and it gets critical
Most important, no one here knows where it gets dangerous. Yes, driving skills can mitigate some of the risks. 80% of us think we are better than average. The reality, 80% of us are really close to average.

The specs are not about towing on a bright sunny warm day along a straight flat road with no traffic where you may feel comfortable and the truck trailer behave without any stress. They are about reducing damage, failure, and injury under more demanding conditions.

They are also the ONLY reliable reference point on where those limits are. The rest is ignorant speculation.

"RantOff.

 

[AH64ID]

The reality is some people cannot comprehend anything that isn't black and white, and that's just fine... do what you need to do to sleep at night.

There are marketing specs, design specs, safe limit specs, and failure points... learn about them.

 

[SnoKing]

The research I did showed that the axle tubes were the same from 5200-7000. The magnets are also the same part numbers, literally the only difference that effected rating was springs. The hub difference just allows for the properly rated wheel and tire combo.

http://www.al-ko.us/download/5200-7000IbLeaf.pdf




Not what I meant, or said... quite the opposite. My little experience with them is they know what they are doing to be safe and make the most money, but as with anything I am sure a few can give most a bad name... but not my intent.

My point was you can't put a set of 19.5's on a DRW 3500 and load the rear axle up to 18K lbs and think everything is going to be okay, even if your within tire limits. Legally, well yes you are fine but that goes a little above a common sense load.

From Alko site:

T-52, D-52, T-60 and D-60 are built with 3” axle tubing, while the
T-70 and D-70 axles utilize a 3” tube with 0.250 nominal wall thickness

They fail to state the small axle tube thickness, but it is less that the .250 of the T-70 and D-70 axles. Schedule 40 standard 3" tube is .216 wall thickness. Chris

 

[AH64ID]

I have seen that, and seem to recall finding the same part number for both tubes (thou why mention it if they are the same???)... but could be mistaken. Maybe I'll see if I can find my old notes when we get done with this move


Okay... I don't want to wait, as I don't like false information being out there. I am emailing them now.

 

[SnoKing]

I have seen that, and seem to recall finding the same part number for both tubes (thou why mention it if they are the same???)... but could be mistaken. Maybe I'll see if I can find my old notes when we get done with this move

With Dexter it is even a little more confusing. It appears that 6 lug 6K axles use standard .216 tubing, and 6K and 7K 8 lug axles use heavy duty tubing AKA .250"! SNOKING

 

[AH64ID]

Does Dexter make a 5200, or just a LD and HD 6K?


And the off topic takes a turn for OFF topic :-laf

 

[Bohemian]

The reality is some people cannot comprehend anything that isn't black and white, and that's just fine... do what you need to do to sleep at night.

There are marketing specs, design specs, safe limit specs, and failure points... learn about them.

and others who can't comprehend that systems are sometimes more complex than they can conceive. That encouraging others to ignorantly exceed standards set by highly trained and experienced experts is irresponsible and ultimately leads to bad things for many people (not all people). I have no doubt that it safe to overload a truck to some unknown limit and very carefully travel along good roads a low speeds for short distances occasionally. Yet, that is not what this thread is about. It is about everyday use over long periods of time by people who don't have any idea of the real limits and will not always be under idea circumstances. It is about making recommendations to everyone regardless of their knowledge and skills. Am I conservative on this issue? Clearly. Why aren't you?



So you choose, be responsible or be irresponsible. It's your choice. It always has been.

 

[SnoKing]

Does Dexter make a 5200, or just a LD and HD 6K?


And the off topic takes a turn for OFF topic :-laf

Yes

D4400, D5200, and D6000 in 6 lug.

 

[AH64ID]

Am I conservative on this issue? Clearly. Why aren't you?

What makes you think I am not conservative???

I can tell you that I am probably safer 1K over RAWR with my pickup than a stock SRW at RAWR is.

I don't need to worry about real limits if I never approach them, even 1K over my door RAWR I am not even close to any limits and can do so safely and with longevity. It's not a complex system when we stay within published ratings.

I have never encouraged anyone to exceed door standards. I simply point out some common misconceptions, some fact, and some limits that shouldn't be ignored... as you stated it's up to the end user to decide what to do. Ignoring the door sticker isn't irresponsible, if some knowledge and common sense is applied. If the end user doesn't understand the system, or is uncomfortable, then my all means they should adhere to what they know.

This same topic comes up quite often on some RV forums. The mid 00's F-250 and F-350 SRW were even more alike than the 2500 and 3500 SRW Dodge. IIRC only a 2" rear axle block was the difference, yet some people felt they had to trade a 250 in for a 350 SRW to get more of a safety margin. That was their choice and their money, but not a true statement.

Yes

D4400, D5200, and D6000 in 6 lug.

Thank you.

 

[photowrite]

Your Mileage, Duty-Cycle, and Ratings May Vary

What a great publication (and forum) the Turbo Diesel Register is. What is most impressive is that after five pages, the strongly opinionated and factual posts (not mutually exclusive) here are still civil and intelligent, though might agree to disagree at this point…

I will second/acknowledge/agree with/comment on:

Criminal and civil (tort) law is not the same. Your comfort with either or both is not too different in this regard as it may be with other criminal and civil violations, including those related to driving. Everyday many of us will violate laws within our respective comfort zones. For example, I may exceed the speed limit and am willing to take that legal risks, criminal and any possible resulting tort cases in extreme circumstances.

After a vehicle accident/collision, even a severe one, the weighing of outfits is very unlikely. As noted by another member, officers will cite for the more obvious driving criminal acts(s), whether caused by overweight and/or lack of control or not; lane violations, speed violations, other loss of control violations, etc.

I'm more concerned about how my rigs are loaded and operated than the letter-of-the-law, but also respectful of the ratings even when I don't adhere to them. For example I know exactly how much I'm overweight with one of my other trucks (not a CTD) that has a cab-over camper on it, because I've weighed it, multiple times. It is over on GVWR, but not even close to over on the GAWR, tire capacities or the GCVWR. Those are my standards, with that rig, and this driver.

I know what I'm comfortable with and how to operate with a comfortable safety margin with my outfits for different conditions. That safety margin has much to do with how I operate an outfit (the driver) and how it's loaded (the driver), as much or more than it does using only the ratings. It's very easy for an unskilled driver to crash or damage any vehicle when well under any/all ratings, vehicles do not crash or wear-out by themselves, we do it for them. Plenty of driver are unsafe when well under the legal limits due to lack of skill and/or training.

It appears that nearly everyone posting in this thread—expect possibly the original poster (no disrespect intended)—has a good handle on specifications, possible fudge limits, good operating skill, plus an understanding of the different laws (legal and physics) as to not be unsafe with their particular rigs. It possibly boils down to: If you have to ask, then yes, stay within or under all the rating limits, because you/the operator are possibly/probably the weak link. With much more knowledge and experience one can later decide what is apposite for them and their outfits. Seems pretty clear that for many here it is not their first rodeo.

P.S. Out of respect of the the original poster and noting his handle and avatar, it's clearly not his first rodeo either
He did weigh his outfit, but as suggested in some of the first posts, more weighing was/is suggested to break down the weight on the truck and trailer axles to make better decisions and judgments.

 

[Cummins12V98]

You know hot shot drivers laugh at RVers and their weight police! Don't exceed your tire ratings, is all I have to say!

Washington State licensed my 8800 GVWR 2001.5 at 12K!!!!

SNOKING

I just realized I was at my max weight per WA State the other day when my TV scaled right at 14K. I am licensed for 14K. Of course the Mobile Suites was pressing down hard on my poor little TV.

 

[AH64ID]

I just realized I was at my max weight per WA State the other day when my TV scaled right at 14K. I am licensed for 14K. Of course the Mobile Suites was pressing down hard on my poor little TV.

That's a heavy pickup!

The GVWR of the dually is the big OEM limit I cannot determine what it's based on. Since Ram upped the frame and GVWR to 14K at the same time I would think they are related, but really maybe not. The 35K psi 03-12 frame is pretty tough and I have never heard of any weight related issues.

Anyone know if the 12,300 is a paper or design limit?

 

[NC Hauler]

Gotcha... but I'll still play







I'm licensed to 26K here in Idaho.. with that all mightily can't ignore (and legally binding according to some) OEM GCW of 21K. Idaho doesn't register your vehicle based on GVW, just GCW.

Same here in NC, nothing about GVWR, use RAWR, based on tires, common sense, simple math.....We register GCW....Mine is 27,000# GCW....can go to 37,500# and actually still be legal

 

[TMRoper1669]

Well after many replies to my original post you might notice my signature has changed, I went and got me a Dually. I know my SRW would handle it. I talked to my insurance agent and a freindly DOT employee who both told me that if I was recreational I would be fine with the SRW, but I have had 3 other duallies and I know there is a diefference in the way it handles and I would be more comfortable as I tugged 18k-20k down the road. Thanks for all your input.

 

[photowrite]

Well after many replies to my original post you might notice my signature has changed, I went and got me a Dually. I know my SRW would handle it. I talked to my insurance agent and a freindly DOT employee who both told me that if I was recreational I would be fine with the SRW, but I have had 3 other duallies and I know there is a diefference in the way it handles and I would be more comfortable as I tugged 18k-20k down the road. Thanks for all your input.

Congratulations on the new truck!

 

[Bohemian]

even 1K over my door RAWR I am not even close to any limits

Oh, we see, the limits are not the limits for you.

 

[AH64ID]

Well after many replies to my original post you might notice my signature has changed, I went and got me a Dually. I know my SRW would handle it. I talked to my insurance agent and a freindly DOT employee who both told me that if I was recreational I would be fine with the SRW, but I have had 3 other duallies and I know there is a diefference in the way it handles and I would be more comfortable as I tugged 18k-20k down the road. Thanks for all your input.

Congrats on the new truck!

You won't regret it.

Oh, we see, the limits are not the limits for you.

You appear to be having a hard time following the thread, and not just on this. You have made several posts that indicate a lack of comprehension on the topic.

Yes I am over my door sticker, remember when you commented on my personal limits? That's why they were personal limits. I even stated my reasons for going above door sticker on RAWR and GVWR. I don't come close to any physical or perceived limit on my rear axle, so its a non issue.

Before you post again how about you re-read the thread and make sure you are following it.

Cummin12V is above his door sticker GVWR too, go pick on him for a while

As I stated earlier... Limits are limits, but the door sticker doesn't have to be the location of those limits.

 

[RVTRKN]

My point was you can't put a set of 19.5's on a DRW 3500 and load the rear axle up to 18K lbs and think everything is going to be okay, even if your within tire limits. Legally, well yes you are fine but that goes a little above a common sense load.

Its been awhile since I was lic. insured and hauled for hire, as well as it being a very short career, (I found out it doesn't pay enough to replace your truck, insurance costs, maintenance and then profit, if any) But what you just decribed, will get you into the inspection station. That will get you fined and IS NOT legal, and would not be permited to leave until your weight was at the GAWR. On the other hand, if you crossed the scale at 500 pounds over the GAWR and had tires that were rated over the actual axle weight, then you get the green light and on you go, even if they noticed it.

Again, it is a grey area and is not black and white when you run higher rated tires then your GAWR, and you do it at your own peril, if you haul for hire and are required to go through weigh stations. They can fine you for being over GAWR, even if over by 100 pounds with tires rated for 500 pounds over the GAWR.

Will they? No

Can they? Yes

Now to the issue of law suites for being over the GVWR, but under the GAWR, how would the injured party know you were? If your hauling legally (lic. ins, & reg) at 40K and are within the axle ratings of the steer axle, drive axle and trailer axles, then you might end up with a law suite, and if you lose the law suite, thats why you buy a high liabilty INSURANCE policy. Now, lets see how fast the lawyer files a law suite for some one running the quoted above scenario, with up to 18K pounds on an Axle rated at 12K?

Just saying!

 

[Cummins12V98]

That's a heavy pickup!

The GVWR of the dually is the big OEM limit I cannot determine what it's based on. Since Ram upped the frame and GVWR to 14K at the same time I would think they are related, but really maybe not. The 35K psi 03-12 frame is pretty tough and I have never heard of any weight related issues.

Anyone know if the 12,300 is a paper or design limit?

I am well within my axle and tire limits at that weight and it really is rock solid.

 

[Cummins12V98]

Well after many replies to my original post you might notice my signature has changed, I went and got me a Dually. I know my SRW would handle it. I talked to my insurance agent and a freindly DOT employee who both told me that if I was recreational I would be fine with the SRW, but I have had 3 other duallies and I know there is a diefference in the way it handles and I would be more comfortable as I tugged 18k-20k down the road. Thanks for all your input.

Enjoy the new stable ride! Good choice on the B&W!