3rd Gen engine runaway

[David Oxland]

So, How does one stop the runaway engine? What are the options available? Thanks Don





__________________

The first thing to be aware of is that there is a possibility of a runaway and have in your mind, your options. When the event happens your brain will not likely be able to analyze the options very well.



Realize that if it's a full power runaway it'll likely be all over be fore you can do any thing (five to ten seconds to destruction)unless you are positioned to take the appropriate action.



There are basically three ways of stopping a CI (compression ignition) engine.

-Stop the fuel

-stop the air

-stop the source of ignition (compression).



Stopping the fuel means getting control of the mechanical aspect of the fuel; ie the rack or getting control of the electronic aspect of the fuel and having it work.

If you had a big bar you might be able to smash the common rail or connecting piping or tearing wiring to the injectors.

If the fuel is oil as in a turbocharger seal leak you aren't likely to be aware or able to stop it.



Stopping the air means being prepared; as in having the air cleaner removed or inlet to turbocharger removed and a robust non collapsible block ready and a person ready to apply it at startup if necessary.



Stopping the compression means uncoupling the camshaft or interfering with the timed valve action or stopping the rotation altogether as in applying a load greater than the power being generated(popping the clutch in top gear and hoping it will stall)



Be warned that a full power runaway likely should not be approached. Full throttle runaways in a diesel whether naturally aspirated or charge aspirated are dangerous events. They most often result in rods letting go and crankcase rupture. They occasionally kill people.



Realize that most runaways (uncontrolled accelerations) occur after work on the fuel or control system has been done and that this is the time that you want to have your options ready.



Sorry for the long winded reply. If you think about it in this way it will help you to be prepared.

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

The only thing that I could think that would be helpful in an engine runaway would be some type of electric fuel shut off switch in the cab. One that you could just reach over , hit the switch and shut the fuel off. Do they make such a thing?

How about a kill switch for the fuel pump assy?

Don

 

[DPKetchum]

If oil in intercooler or what not stopping fuel wont help. You have to stop AIR

 

[David Oxland]

If you speaking about the lift or transfer pump the remaing fuel in the injection pump and filter is almost always enough to support the runaway to destruction.





David

 

[nickleinonen]

runaway's are not that common on b-series engines. this is pretty much isolated thing here eh. not like on them DDC green grenades that had the built in air damper on the blower inlet...



but here is another idea. nos fogger in the intake air tract [before turbo] and co2 going to that instead of nos. hit the trigger and co2 gas floods the intake and stopping combustion from taking place

 

[RobertBolinger]

Originally posted by nickleinonen



but here is another idea. nos fogger in the intake air tract [before turbo] and co2 going to that instead of nos. hit the trigger and co2 gas floods the intake and stopping combustion from taking place

Add to that an automatic trigger at 3800 RPM as Vaughn suggested above and that would be cool-but like you say runaways are rare, and how much would this system cost...

 

[SRadke]

Oh yea, now there's a button you buddies would be trying to hit at 70 mph just to screw with ya.



-Scott

 

[WM-300]

While searching the web for Diesel Air Shut Downs, I found this company. Roda Deaco in Alberta Ca. Reading thier site, there business is ONLY the emergency shut down of Diesels. They are up in the Oil Fields. The oil fields have requirements that all diesels have air shut off for emergency stop, the only way to shut down a diesel under any condition. Their web page is

www.rodadeaco.com

I talked with them today and they supply shut downs for the CTD/Dodge on a regular basis. They have 3 models, one is totally manual cable pull with a spring loaded butterfly, 2nd is a electric closed butterfly, 3rd is a butterfly closed by ENgine RPM's which will work if the diesel is running and no operator is present.



I am seriously leaning towards buying the manual cable pull. Plus you get a thieft deterent. Pull the sir shut off and the engine wont start. Put the pull up under the dash, no one will quickly figure why they cant start the enging and hopefully move on to easier pickings.



Paul

 

[Elite1]

Someone else said this, but if it's a manual trans wouldn't it be best to throw her into 6th put the brake on and dump the clutch? Seems like a fast way..... Auto trans your on your own!

 

[SOOT]

Putting it in gear with the amount of torque a diesel puts out would probably shatter the clutch. All you can do is either run like he!! or stop the air flow.



Monday we had a 6v92 try and run away in the shop. couldn't get it into gear to try that so we had to pull the intake pipe off at the turbo and throw a piece of card board, yes I said card board, over the intake and choke it. It screamed at about 4,000 RPM'S for a good Minute, no kidding. There was so much smoke in the shop I couldn't see the buttons to open the bay doors so I had to feel my way around to find them. Then the 3 of us had to take a 15 minute brake to go change our pants. After we figured out the problem and fixed it we fired it back up and pulled it out of the shop.

 

[Moose]

In older engines with a lot of time on them... sometimes they will start sucking oil past the piston rings and burning it... Speaking from a diesel mechanics point of view... . U only have a few options when dealing with a runaway engine... . A) Cover the turbo inlet and try to starve it for air... But make sure what ever u put infront of it is sturdy... Ive seen a turbo eat a clip board and a 150 pg text book before it finally died... Sometimes if u do this the engine will eat the seals and gaskets and draw air in n e way it can... . B) Spray CO2 or some other heavy non combustable gas into the intake... C) put it in gear and try to stall it... although if the engine is spinning fast enough... there is a chance it will shatter the transmission and keep right on going... . or D) Let it blow... I have seen a Cummins 855 runaway and blow up... It was not pretty... We found a piston buried in 3 ft of solid concrete and part of the head in a parking lot 1/4 mile away... When a diesel comes apart... It goes off like a bomb and virtually no where in a 100ft radius is safe... ... .



Moose

 

[Eric_77]

I had a run away on my 92 (happened before recall notice came to house). It started acting up and not shutting down then it stayed at full throttle when turned into neighborhood. Power braked it to stop right rear smoking tire and brake. While buddy that was with me held brake I took piece of plywood and held up to exhaust with my feet took forever (maybe 30-40 seconds) but finally built enough backpressure it died. Towed to dealer under warranty told them problem and they started it and unsure how they stopped it but motor didn't blow but it does use a bit of oil now.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

WM-300, good find on Roda Deaco. Did you happen to talk $$ numbers?



Vaughn

 

[WM-300]

Yes, I did, but all my numbers are down in the shop. Under 500 for the mechanical pull model for a 2003 Ram. The 2003/2004 is a different unit with some changes to fit better. Your best bet is to give them a call. I was on the phone for over 45 minutes, great people. Got some good tips on shut down for my Cummins 4BTA swap into my 1943 Dodge Carryall.



Paul

 

[EMD Diesel Power]

CO2 is the best bet for extinguishing a runaway diesel.....



Halon is NOT recommended for running/runaway diesel situations..... it is good for engine ROOM/dead engine fires though. When Halon gets sucked thru a runaway diesel, it actually forms mustard gas or something like that in the exhaust.



I might be mistaken... . but I know this topic has been covered before... . I was originally going to use Halon in my truck... until I read about the gas part. Went with CO2 instead.



The ships all have intake blocks on the diesels..... those get activated to kill the engines, then the engineroom is flooded with halon.





Jeff

 

[SRadke]

Good info on the halon, thanks.



-Scott

 

[WM-300]

Actually any inert gas could be fired into the air intake to shut down a runaway. The big problem, as I see it is, you have to open the hood, and stand there with a fire extinguisher dumping into the air intake. You have to maintain a continous discharge until the engine has stopped rotating.



The problems with this;

You have to be close, C02 or any other inert gas will dissapate in the air (especially with a wind blowing)



What size C02 would be required to provide a continous discharge until the engine is not rotating



Can you get directly to the air intake with the inert gas



If you have ever seen the destruction that a runaway can cause when/if they blow up, you want to be a long ways from that runaway.



This is why I plan to buy a cable operated air shut off. I can pull the air shut off and hit the ejection seat and get a safe distance away until the show is over.



Just my thoughts



Paul

 

[ROADWARRIOR]

Do any of you guys with more knowledge than me on this subject think that an engaged E-brake would prevent an engine runaway?



The reason I ask is because, not going into details(foolishness), I found that my truck will not rev. past 1900rpm with the brake engaged. Any throttle input past 1900rpm just poors out the black smoke. It looked like Mitchell's truck. lol



Dan

 

[Forrest Nearing]

the oil acts as fuel, and there's no regulation of how much "fuel" (oil) is drawn in... with your foot on the throttle, only so much diesel is injected... but with oil, it's a free for all...



Forrest

 

[ROADWARRIOR]

Forrest,



I understand what you are saying. But I think with the Exhaust restriction, it doesn't matter how much of what fuel you are burning. On my truck; say it took 20% throttle to reach 1900rpm, 40% throttle still equaled 1900rpm but with a lot of black smoke. 60% throttle still equaled 1900rpm only with a lot more smoke than 40% throttle and so on.



I think that the exhaust brake acted like one of the intake shutoffs. Only rather than killing the engine, it limited it's rpm because of the small orifice in the butterfly.



I brought this up because I was thinking about buying or making an intake shutoff, but remembered the whole E-brake smoke show from a few years back.



Dan