48RE transmission issue

[Jeepr]

MSkyrman - I'm not going to jump in the transmission debate, I'm not qualified. But, you might want to consider filling out your profile and/or your signature so people know what year truck and also where you are (since you mentioned taking it somewhere, there might be people with recommendations in your area).

 

[MSkyrman]

MSkyrman - I'm not going to jump in the transmission debate, I'm not qualified. But, you might want to consider filling out your profile and/or your signature so people know what year truck and also where you are (since you mentioned taking it somewhere, there might be people with recommendations in your area).

Thank you. I have been meaning to do this for awhile. I edited my truck profile. Hopefully, this info will print out following the message.

 

[MSkyrman]

MSkyrman - I'm not going to jump in the transmission debate, I'm not qualified. But, you might want to consider filling out your profile and/or your signature so people know what year truck and also where you are (since you mentioned taking it somewhere, there might be people with recommendations in your area).

Lets try this again... I guess the info has to be in the signature. Here goes.

 

[WoodChuck]

With that many miles and being a full timer it might be best to get a good complete rebuild with some moderate upgrades.

 

[cerberusiam]

Running an EB on a stock auto is not a good idea to begin with. Its probably time for a rebuild with the correct parts to handle it and the extra stress it adds.

 

[MSkyrman]

Running an EB on a stock auto is not a good idea to begin with. Its probably time for a rebuild with the correct parts to handle it and the extra stress it adds.

What are the extra stresses that the exhaust brake adds to the transmission? Do you think an upgraded valve body and a triple disc converter would do the trick? I'm trying to avoid any unnecessary upgrades to keep the cost reasonable but at the same time want this rebuild to last a good long time and obviously perform well. I'm considering Goerrend and Suncoast, both seem to be about the same price wise.

 

[cerberusiam]

EB is going to wear the TC clutch and the direct clutches faster than normal without some help from a shift kit. One of the reasons Dodge won't bless an EB on the older trucks.



I suspect your latest code is probably from the TC clutch starting to go Tango Uniform.



Goerends would be my choice for a rebuild. Talk to him about what you are doing with the truck, how you are driving it, and what you want it to perform like. He will set it up specifically for your needs.



A triple disk would be a good choice if your towing regularly and using the EB frequently. Definitely spend the $$ on a good TC as that will enhance everything you do. Since your TH is an OD lockout you should not have the problem of the later trucks slamming into OD in TH and probably don't need a billet input. Its a good idea with a triple but if the trans is setup correctly in can be deleted. I would also definitely consider a 5 disk direct drum setup and a rigid front band in place of the flex band that is stock. That will help a lot with the life expectancy towing.



Question, when the trans shifts into OD does it lock immediately, almost like a locked shift?



Does your trans usually lock the TC in drive before shifting to OD?



Last question, what are you using for a controller for the EB?



BD makes what is called a TorqLoc for the transmissions that have a manual TV cable like yours. When the EB is activated this opens the TV pressure up so it ramps the line pressure and holds the gear longer. This is a MUST if you are frequently using the EB or it will eat the clutches in the TC. I am assuming this unit can be controlled by a Pac controller but you might want to check that.

 

[MSkyrman]

EB is going to wear the TC clutch and the direct clutches faster than normal without some help from a shift kit. One of the reasons Dodge won't bless an EB on the older trucks.







I suspect your latest code is probably from the TC clutch starting to go Tango Uniform.



I cleaned the terminals on the ground cables where they attach to the engine and body in the event that the P0700 code I'm seeing on the odometer is related to a bad ground signal. Also, Pacbrake suggested I double check that the wires from the PacBrake controller going to the transmission solenoid are in the correct pins. I will check it this weekend when I take it to the transmission shop for a fluid change.



Goerends would be my choice for a rebuild. Talk to him about what you are doing with the truck, how you are driving it, and what you want it to perform like. He will set it up specifically for your needs.



I was referred by two truck shops to an experienced Dodge transmission builder in Palm City, FL (Palm City Transmissions). He will rebuild with whatever TC, valve body, or other parts that I want. He liked the Suncoast converters but thought their valve bodies were too aggressive with the shifting (not smooth). I was thinking of getting the Goerrend (or Suncoast) parts and having him do the rebuild. Seems like this is a little more economical way to go rather than paying $4k for a rebuilt transmission from Goerred then having to pay a shop $500 or $600 to install it. What's your take on that?



A triple disk would be a good choice if your towing regularly and using the EB frequently. Definitely spend the $$ on a good TC as that will enhance everything you do. Since your TH is an OD lockout you should not have the problem of the later trucks slamming into OD in TH and probably don't need a billet input. Its a good idea with a triple but if the trans is setup correctly in can be deleted. I would also definitely consider a 5 disk direct drum setup and a rigid front band in place of the flex band that is stock. That will help a lot with the life expectancy towing.



Am I right that 'TH' means "Tow-Haul" and that this is basically 3rd gear? At speeds less than 50 mph or so I tow in third gear with OD off, but I often tow in OD when my speed is in the low 60's and when I'm not lugging the engine. My owner's manual says I should tow at 1800 rpm, only problem I have is that (in OD) its often a bit faster than I feel I can tow safely (65 mph+) with regards to braking distance, and in 3rd gear 1800 rpm is too slow for safe travel on interstate.



Question, when the trans shifts into OD does it lock immediately, almost like a locked shift?



Yes, it does.



Does your trans usually lock the TC in drive before shifting to OD? No, not usually. I am basing this (and the previous question) on my in-cab monitor (Edge) that displays TC lock.



Last question, what are you using for a controller for the EB? The controller is made by PacBrake for the PRXB (which uses compressed air, not vacuum).



BD makes what is called a TorqLoc for the transmissions that have a manual TV cable like yours. When the EB is activated this opens the TV pressure up so it ramps the line pressure and holds the gear longer. This is a MUST if you are frequently using the EB or it will eat the clutches in the TC. I am assuming this unit can be controlled by a Pac controller but you might want to check that.

What is "TV" stand for? I will have to look into this with PacBrake.

 

[WoodChuck]

What is "TV" stand for? I will have to look into this with PacBrake.

TV is throttle valve, on 03-04 it is cable controlled and 05-07 it's electronic controlled by the ECM.

 

[cerberusiam]

What is "TV" stand for? I will have to look into this with PacBrake.

Like woodchuch said throttle valve pressure, this is the key to controlling the shifts and the holding ability with an EB on these transmissions.



If you have a local shop doing the rebuild then definitely go that route if you think he is competent. Agree with him on the Suncoast VB's so sounds like he is going down the right path. I would reccomend doing a shift kit on your existing VB rather than aswap as you may get a 47RE VB in exchnage and have unknown issues.



Under 50 and lockout OD is about right, with my taller tires thta goes to 60 where I need it. You should be a ble to tow at any speed 60 or more in OD and not have problems.



If the VB build will soften the shifts and the TC lockup enough you can use a triple disk TC with the stock input. Make sure this is pointed out ot the builder as the OD shift\lock strategy can be a killer on inputs.



I was refering to the electronics controller for the PPacBrake that activates TC lockup and drops OD when it is activated. Assume you have one of those?





Cheers



Alan

 

[NavyDood]

The issue I'm experiencing is this. After I put the truck in reverse, then go to drive, it acts like its stuck in first gear and revs real high before shifting to second gear.

My truck has done this 3 times in the past couple of years. A quick stab of the go go pedal and it clears itself.

I'm pretty sure it was Schaeffers All Trans Supreme, 204, something like that. The problem I am having did not coincide with this change in transmission fluid. I started having the problem before that by about 10,000 miles or so.

From what I see on Schaeffers website, the "All Trans" is Dexron III. That is the wrong stuff for your 48RE.

Cerb is barking up the correct tree. He is very knowledgeable and has helped a whole bunch of ppl. Just like he mentioned, I am another that could care less what the manual says about band adjustment. There is absolutely ZERO reason to adjust the bands unless there is actually a problem directly related to the bands function. I have 125,000 miles on my 04 and the bands have never been touched. 30,000 of those miles have had the Smarty Jr. on all the settings. And guess what?, the transmission performs the same it did when I got the truck in Spring 05.

ATF+4 is a very very good synthetic fluid even if it is only a group III fluid. This is one thing Chrysler actually did right in my book. Well, other than putting the Cummins in our trucks. Aftermarket transmission fluids (I. E. Amsoil, Redline or Schaeffers) are a waste of money in this case.

I will take real world testing and knowledge over a book or bean counter engineer anyday.

 

[MSkyrman]

My truck has done this 3 times in the past couple of years. A quick stab of the go go pedal and it clears itself.





From what I see on Schaeffers website, the "All Trans" is Dexron III. That is the wrong stuff for your 48RE.



Cerb is barking up the correct tree. He is very knowledgeable and has helped a whole bunch of ppl. Just like he mentioned, I am another that could care less what the manual says about band adjustment. There is absolutely ZERO reason to adjust the bands unless there is actually a problem directly related to the bands function. I have 125,000 miles on my 04 and the bands have never been touched. 30,000 of those miles have had the Smarty Jr. on all the settings. And guess what?, the transmission performs the same it did when I got the truck in Spring 05.



ATF+4 is a very very good synthetic fluid even if it is only a group III fluid. This is one thing Chrysler actually did right in my book. Well, other than putting the Cummins in our trucks. Aftermarket transmission fluids (I. E. Amsoil, Redline or Schaeffers) are a waste of money in this case.



I will take real world testing and knowledge over a book or bean counter engineer anyday.

Following is the technical information from their website, which says it is recommended for Chrysler ATF+4 transmissions. I really don't know if use of this fluid would accelerate any problems, hard to say, I guess it could be a factor. The use of this fluid was brought to my attention after the service (drain/filter) was performed to counteract the burned ATF+4 due to the higher temperature resistance of the Schaeffer's. I was told at that shop (Wyoming Diesel Power in Cody) that it exceeded ATF+4 specifications. I will probably stick with ATF+4 in the future. I get the transmission serviced this afternoon, I'll let you know what they find when they drop the pan.



#204SAT ALL TRANS SUPREME

All Trans Supreme is a premium quality fully synthetic multi-vehicle automatic

transmission fluid that is recommended for use in practically all types of automatic and

powershift transmissions that specify the use of Dexron-III, Mercon, and Mercon V

and Allison C-4 type fluids. In addition All Trans Supreme is recommended for use in

Chrysler automatic transmissions and can function as a Caterpillar TO-2 lubricant.

All Trans Supreme contains a special blend of synthetic base fluids, a carefully balanced

multifunctional additive system that protects against shudder, eliminates the need to stock

different types of automatic transmission fluids and ATF supplements and allows the

proper friction retention needed for long life performance and smooth lock-ups required by

a wide variety of vehicles and a highly shear stable viscosity improver. This combination

provides the All Trans Supreme with the following performance benefits:

1. Excellent low temperature fluidity for smoother shifting at low temperatures.

2. Superior oxidation and thermal stability

3. Superior resistance to thermal degradation

4. Very low volatility characteristics

5. Excellent film strength

6. Superior operating temperature reduction.

7. Exceptional anti-wear and anti-shudder performance characteristics throughout

All Trans Supreme’s service life in transmissions equipped with modulated or

continuously slipping clutch torque converters

8. Carefully balanced frictional modification that allows for the proper friction

retention for long life performance and smooth lock-ups required by a variety of

vehicles.

9. Excellent anti-wear protection for clutches, gears and hydraulic pumps.

10. Excellent and balanced frictional stability and durability characteristics for

smooth positive shifting and anti-shudder performance.

11. Smoother and quieter shifting.

12. Exceptional rust and corrosion protection.

13. Exceptional and enhanced thermal and oxidative stability and durability.

14. Excellent seal and materials compatibility.

15. Excellent resistance to foaming.

Continued on the next page

TD-204SAT (Rev 05/08)

TD-204SAT

Page 2

16. Exceptional shear stability.

17. Reduced concern in top-off emergencies and excellent leakage control.

18. Extended service life.

19. Extended drain capabilities.

TYPICAL APPLICATIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

All Trans Supreme is recommended for service fill and for use in the following

applications.

• All automatic transmissions that specify the use of Dexron-III (G), Dexron III (H)

Ford Mercon (License Identification Number M040610) and MerconV. (License

Identification Number M000807).

• All passenger cars and light trucks requiring the use of Type A, Type A suffix,

Dexron, Dexron-II, Dexron-IIE.

• Ford automatic transmissions that specify the use of a fluid that meets

M2C138CJ or M2C166-H specifications.

• Recommended for use in vehicles calling for Chrysler ATF+3 or ATF+4. • Audi G-052-025-A@

• BMW LA2634, LT71141

• Caterpillar Automatic Transmission-1 (AT-1) and AT-1 HD Specifications.

• Honda ATF Z-1 (not for CVT use)

• Mercedes Benz 236. 2

• Mitsubishi Diamond/Kia/Hyundai SP, SP-II and SP-III

• Mazda ATF M-5

• Eaton CEEMAT Transmissions

• Automatic transmissions in many import cars such as Toyota, BMW, Fiat, ISUZU,

Audi, Renault, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Volvo, Volkswagen and Infiniti

(Check owners manual before using)

• Nissan Matic-D, Nissan Matic-J

• Sundstrand hydrostatic transmissions.

• Toyota Type T and T-IV

• ZF TE-ML14C

• ZF Ecomat Torque Converter Transmissions

• Voith DIWA Transmissions

• Power steering systems where Mercon or Dexron type fluids are specified.

• Allison commercial and off-highway transmissions that specify the use of a fluid

that meets DexronII and Allison C-4 specifications (1000, 2000, 2400 Series,

MD, HD, B300, B400, B500 Series, AT500, MT600, HT700, V700 Series

transmissions only).

• Allison transmissions that specify the use of a TES 295 type fluid.

• Allison TES-389

• Vickers I286 and 2905S

• Volkswagen TL52162

• Volvo (except 5 speed)

TD-204SAT

Page 3

All Trans Supreme is not recommended for use in those passenger cars and light

duty trucks that specify the use of Ford Type F, Ford M2C33F, Automatic

Transmission Fluid Type G, GM Dexron® VI, Honda CVT, Honda Genuine, Nissan

Matic K, Nissan CVT type fluids or in dual clutch transmissions (DCT) or

continuously variable transmissions (CVT).

For Ford Mercon®SP applications: While not a direct substitute for the Ford

Mercon® SP fluid, All Trans Supreme has been successfully used in heavily or

severely loaded applications where a higher film strength product is need to

protect the transmission from wear.

TYPICAL PROPERTIES

Specific Gravity ASTM D-1298 0. 86

Viscosity, cSt @ 40ºC (ASTM D-445) 29. 00-41. 00

Viscosity, cSt @ 100ºC (ASTM D-445) 7. 0-7. 9

Viscosity, cP @ -40ºC ASTM D-2983 8,600-12,000

Viscosity Index ASTM D-2270 196

KRL Tapered Bearing Shear Stability Test

End of Test Viscosity, cSt @ 100°C 6. 68

Fuel Injector Shear Stability Test (ASTM D-5275)

Viscosity, cSt @100°C after 40 cycles 6. 8

High Temperature High Shear

Viscosity, cP @150°C ASTM D-4683 2. 6

Flash Point ºF/ºC ASTM D-92 425º/218. 33º

Fire Point ºF/ºC ASTM D-92 445º/229. 44º

Pour Point ºF/ºC ASTM D-97 -60º/-51º

Noack Volatility ASTM D-5800

% Evaporative Loss 2. 75%

Copper Strip Corrosion Test (ASTM D-130) 1A

Four Ball Wear Test (ASTM D-4172)

(40kg/1200rpm/75°C/1hour)

Scar diameter, mm 0. 35

Rust Inhibition Test (ASTM D-665)

Procedure A (Distilled Water) Pass

Procedure B (Salt Water) Pass

Humidity Cabinet Test (ASTM D-1748)

50 hours @ 40ºC No rust or corrosion on test panels

Vickers Pump Wear Test (ASTM D-2882)

Total mgs. of weight loss 2. 8

GM THOT Test (4L60 Cycling Test)

Sludge and Varnish No sludge and varnish

Condition of Parts Clean, no corrosion

Condition of Used Fluid

Total Acid Number Increase 0. 47

Carbonyl Group Absorbance Increase 0. 16

Continued on next page

TD-204SAT

Page 4

GM 4L60E Oxidation Test

Sludge Pass

Cooler Corrosion Pass

Total Acid Number Increase 2. 42

Carbonyl Group Absorbance Increase 0. 32

End of Test Brookfield Viscosity @-20°C 1,150

Ford Aluminum Beaker Oxidation Test (ABOT)

Pentane Insolubles 0. 13

% Viscosity Increase 2. 7

Total Acid Number Increase 0. 92

Lead Coupon, % wt loss 0. 016%

Foam Test GM Method

Mm of foam @ 95ºC 0

Mm of foam @ 135ºC 0

Break Time @ 135ºC, seconds 0

GM Sprag Clutch Wear Test

Average weight loss, mg 10. 2

Plate Clutch Friction Test GM Method Pass

Plate Clutch Friction Test Ford Method Pass

Band Clutch Test GM Method Pass

Ford Friction Durability Test Pass

Ford Cycling Test Pass

GM Cycling Test Pass

Ford Elastomer Compatibility Test Pass

GM Elastomer Compatibility Test Pass

Ford Rust Test No visible rust

Falex EP Test ASTM D-3233 (modified)

Failure Load, lbs-f @100°C 1750

Failure Load, lbs-f @150°C 1250

FZG Gear Wear Test (ASTM D-5182)

Load Stage 12th

Packaging: #204SAT All Trans Supreme is available in 400lb drums, 214lb drums,

114lb kegs, 38lb pails and cases (12 quarts per case)

 

[MSkyrman]

I had the transmission serviced yesterday. There was nothing unusual, amount of fine "dust" in pan was normal, no shavings of any sort apparent. Fluid looked used but not burnt. Technician said bands were in good shape as well. Replaced filter and ATF.

 

[TCDiesel]

If You are going to Install an EB on 03/04. 5 You should install some Device to control the TV. 05 and later needs some type of Device or software to control the TV motor.

Nothing is equal to ATF-4, there is some great fluids available but they are NOT ATF-4.

Adjusting the bands regularly will bring on failure much sooner. We always visually adjust the BANDS, The FM works if your lazy and do not want to drop the VB.

 

[cerberusiam]

I had the transmission serviced yesterday. There was nothing unusual, amount of fine "dust" in pan was normal, no shavings of any sort apparent. Fluid looked used but not burnt. Technician said bands were in good shape as well. Replaced filter and ATF.

How many miles at what weight were on that fluid change?



"Dust" in the pan that you can see has been and indication of problems for me. I have burnt up 2 of these units and they were always preceded by the black dust in the pan on on the VB. Invariably, lost either the direct clutches and\or the the TC clutch.



This could just be the crappy OEM clutches wearing, but, from what I have seen on the rebuilds its not. If you have a coating of black dust on a 20-30k fluid change there is slippage that will eventually kill the trans.



My opinion based on what I have experienced.

 

[pullya]

This site has some information about ATF-4 and what other brands are suitable replacements



Chrysler LLC ATF+4® Info Center



Jay

 

[MSkyrman]

This site has some information about ATF-4 and what other brands are suitable replacements



Chrysler LLC ATF+4® Info Center



Jay

Thanks!!... I printed it out and put it in my maintenance binder for future ref.

 

[MSkyrman]

How many miles at what weight were on that fluid change?



20,000 miles, combined weight of 22,000# when towing (I'm aware it's over the GCWR)- I'd say about 8,000 of that was towing.



"Dust" in the pan that you can see has been and indication of problems for me. I have burnt up 2 of these units and they were always preceded by the black dust in the pan on on the VB. Invariably, lost either the direct clutches and\or the the TC clutch.



This could just be the crappy OEM clutches wearing, but, from what I have seen on the rebuilds its not. If you have a coating of black dust on a 20-30k fluid change there is slippage that will eventually kill the trans.



My opinion based on what I have experienced.

Thanks... the transmission technician said that the quantitiy of dust on the magnet and black film on bottom of pan was normal (maybe normal for this kind of mileage, I don't know). I guess its only a matter of time now before I need a rebuild. The transmission is still shifting fine and functional for the time being so at least I have some time to get my ducks in a row and save up.



Thanks everyone for all your help with this one.

 

[compmc]

EB question

If You are going to Install an EB on 03/04. 5 You should install some Device to control the TV. 05 and later needs some type of Device or software to control the TV motor.

Nothing is equal to ATF-4, there is some great fluids available but they are NOT ATF-4.

Adjusting the bands regularly will bring on failure much sooner. We always visually adjust the BANDS, The FM works if your lazy and do not want to drop the VB.

You stated that the,

"Later needs some type of device or software to control the TV motor"

What are you suggesting and why?

Does the 06' and later ECM not properly control the needed functions?

I use my 06' for heavy 5'er hauling and need to know.

Thanks

 

[HBarlow]

You stated that the,
"Later needs some type of device or software to control the TV motor"
What are you suggesting and why?
Does the 06' and later ECM not properly control the needed functions?
I use my 06' for heavy 5'er hauling and need to know.
Thanks

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

The '06 was the first Dodge automatic ever that was built from the factory with the ECM, PCM, and 48RE all communicating and ready from the factory for installation of a Jacobs Exhaust Brake. I ordered an '06 with 48RE and Jacobs Exhaust Brake from the factory in late '05 and took delivery in early '06. The Jacobs Exhaust Brake was listed on the MSRP sticker but was still in the box behind the driver's seat for dealer install.

My own mechanic friend installed it for me. All that was required was to bolt it in and connect the harness. It was activated by a switch zip-tied to the shift lever but was fully integrated with the truck. When the driver backed off the throttle pedal the EB was activated then as the truck slowed, the ECM/PCM deactived the EB briefly, blipped the throttle, downshifted to third direct, and reactivated the exhaust brake.

The '07 was also ready for the EB but '05 and earlier were not. An aftermarket method to lock the torque converter and keep it locked while the exhaust brake is activated must be installed or the 48RE will be destroyed quickly.