$590.00 fine yesterday for not enough license

[HBarlow]

... ... ... ... ..... Now to figure out how to write off the extra fees !!!

When I was transporting I claimed the cost of registration, every deduction I was entitled to, and a couple more to make sure I wasn't overpaying.

 

[morbius]

Cumminz,



Our truck was made 6/2008 (there was some changes in the design, especially firmware, from what I have learned). I have a 6 speed auto with 4. 10 rear end.



I know that there was a code fix for trucks that claimed "they has white smoke at startup and stumbling issues". That code had a direct effect on regen numbers. I am doing less regens than before which has helped big time in MPG's. On the same operating parameters, doing 1 regen per 400 miles.



Cheers,

Roberto

 

[Bob Cochran]

Ok I am going to catch heck for this but here goes anyway. All that promote the idea that the federal government should mandate a specific set of laws that all States must comply with and recognize really gets me. Doing this is another instance of people giving away there freedoms!!!! States should understand there specific needs and reason for laws they enact a whole lot better than the federal government. If they do not it is the duty of all voting citizens in that state to correct those laws. Are you advocating the cities should all prohibit engine brakes or allow them to be used in all cities? Maybe the federal government should?

I understand how difficult it is to be aware and comply with each differing state laws. However, you are a professional driver and it is your responsibility. Are you one of those that say hey makes it easy for me who cares what happens in the future not my problem? As for those of use confused by our own state laws you are a voting citizen fix it; step up and be heard !!!! Get like minded people and fix it. No it is not easy but do it anyway because it is the right thing to do.

To me it is merely being lazy and I include myself in this category. 24/7 the federal government is chipping away at those freedoms and I am doing all I can do to prevent it in every way I can. I cannot remember who said it "make us slaves but feed us!". Think about it; sound familiar?

Our founding fathers would be ashamed of us allowing the federal government taking away our freedoms. Mandated federal vehicle laws on States is simply wrong. Laziness on our parts is no reason to allow this to happen. As it is now we do not have statesmen we have politicians that do just that politic 24/7 with no regard what is good for the United States of America rather only how to get voted in again. We vote them in because they can give the state government contracts(bridges to no where) making jobs no matter if it is good for the USA as a whole. It will get them elected again and for no other reason, shame on use.

Ok you want uniform vehicle laws that the fed's make mandatory and have to enforce. This is how they do it if the State does not comply highway funds are withheld just as they do with emission laws you all hate!!! Yep blackmail is all it is; they take the federal taxes paid at the pump, collected by the State and sent to them and say you do not comply you don't get the money. Another State politician says hey my State complied and I need the money so give it to me and I will be re-elected because of it and build a library with my name on it. Now the new federal law says everyone cannot exceed 55 mph for safety reasons and fuel savings. You will all howl I cannot get enough miles, I will go broke, you are putting us out of business. You think they won't? California loves 55 and you all have seen it time and time again when California does it ultimately other States will follow or it be mandated by the Federal government. Why, look at how large the economy is in California, how many votes, etc. hey you asked for it!!!

Hey here is an idea the States should not be blackmailed. If the federal government try this; the States just refuse to send the federal tax dollars they collect. Probably wind up with more money in the long run. OOP's that is what cause the Civil War the states refusing to be bullied by the federal government. No you say it was slavery, was it? Read your history and not just that given to you in school.

Example, Robert E. Lee was asked to lead the Union Army first; you did not know that did you or I bet very few did. He also was first in his class in the Academy above Grant and all the others. Every military student(past and current) today believe he may have been the greatest general that ever lived. He was asked first because he was familiar with the South and he no longer had slaves. He had long ago freed them. Why did he refuse? He felt the federal government should not dictate to any of the States(not just Southern States) how this issue should be handle. He felt his allegiance should be to his state. He felt the slaves should be educated and provided training after all they did not have anything to help them when they was free to survive prior to being freed by the slave owners like he had done. Federal government said no just release them we don't care we know best you do not. Sound familiar????? Hey we know better than you bail out banks, auto manufactures, the list goes on. So hence the Civil War and every one thinking General Lee was the worst slaver ever. You know where you got that, from the history books in school? Who provided and had those books written? And all students before you was told this, you, and all since you. Don't even get me started on our educational system!!!!

Ok off the soap box!!! Give this up, stop being lazy and read and comply with the necessary laws, be the professional you are. If I need a CDL A will get it, had one before no problem getting it again. You break the law and fined dollars it is the way it should be we are a society of laws and that is a good thing. I shoot my neighbor because I don't like how he dresses, I shop lift, I speed (yep cannot read the speed limit sign). I go to jail, pay the fine and that is a good thing stop whining nobody to blame but yourself. Do something different than everybody else; take responsibility, and stop blaming somebody else. Hey maybe you can make this world a better place and play it forward!!!!

OK Flame Away I can take it mostly because I feel better for saying it. If only one person figures hey what am I doing it will be well worth it. For everyone of us that do, we will make this place a better place for you without your help.

 

[MMeier]

When I was transporting I claimed the cost of registration, every deduction I was entitled to, and a couple more to make sure I wasn't overpaying.

Same here, but remember I gave up the 'legit' aspect of it a year ago. And with rates the way they are now:{#@$%!, not really interested in doing it legit right now... or illegit !! :-laf

 

[Bob Cochran]

Here is the quote and as you can see I messed it up!!! Never said I was without fault have a lot of them.

"In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet, and say to us, 'Make us your slaves, but feed us. '"

- - The Grand Inquisitor as told by Ivan, The Brothers Karamazov, Fyodor Dostoevsky

 

[HBarlow]

Bob,

I'm not sure what in this thread prompted your political speech or who it was addressed to. I agree in principle with you but think you are misunderstanding this issue and I disagree with you on the issue of interstate trucking and interstate DOT rules.

I don't remember reading a post in this thread proposing that the fed impose and enforce transportation laws over the states. I believe all states have voluntarily adopted the federal DOT code in its entirety.

You are looking at the issue from the narrow point of view of a resident of one state who perhaps has never driven commercially and interstate. Commercial interstate transportation is a vital part of our national economy. Without commercial trucking our economy would shut down within days. It would be nearly impossible for trucking companies and commercial drivers to operate nationwide if each state chose to impose all their own goofy and narrowly focused rules on regulations on truckers trying to operate in all 48. Truckers already spend hours each day in some regions stopping at state points of entry, weighing on scales, taking their paperwork inside to be inspected, undergoing DOT vehicle inspections, and being pulled over for routine roadside inspections. And all states currently enforce federal DOT rules that govern commercial trucking!

On edit: I might also remind that regulation of interstate commerce IS in the US Constitution as one of the legitimate duties of the federal government. If regulation of interstate trucking isn't a major part of interstate commerce I don't know what would be.

I do agree with your lecture to other members that they should learn the rules and comply.

 

[EdLewis]

When operating any truck in excess of 10,000 lbs, no matter what the state, you are subject to chaper 49 of the code of federal regulations. These laws apply throughout the entire country so that there is uniform enforcement for those driving from stste to state. License requirements are also the same. The rule of thumb to follow is that if you are towing a trailer in EXCESS of 10,000 lbs, you may have issues! Check to make sure you are in compliance before you tow!!

 

[steved]

Dave,



I have heard second or third hand tales of someone towing a heavy race car trailer being ticketed for not having a CDL A and complying with commercial hauling rules for the reason you suggested. Don't know if the stories are true but technically, that could be considered commercial. If the trooper feels like writing the citation is is up to the judge to decide. You're still out time and trouble.

I read on Pirate4x4 (an offroad site) a few years ago that a couple guys carvaning to PA got ticketed in VA because their towed vehicle (a Jeep on a flatbed trailer) had sponsor's names and "racing numbers".



They got raked over the coals IIRC... ticketed for not being CDL, ticketed for small things such as missing clearance lights (that weren't OE installed), trailer braking axles, safety chains, etc, etc... IIRC, they walked away with several thousand dollar fines each.



If someone was interested in the entire story, that should be on Pirate's site in the archives...

 

[GAmes]

When operating any truck in excess of 10,000 lbs, no matter what the state, you are subject to chaper 49 of the code of federal regulations. These laws apply throughout the entire country so that there is uniform enforcement for those driving from stste to state. License requirements are also the same. The rule of thumb to follow is that if you are towing a trailer in EXCESS of 10,000 lbs, you may have issues! Check to make sure you are in compliance before you tow!!

I'm guessing you are refering to title 49 of the FMCSR. So... ..... not ANY truck, only a truck used in a commercial enterprise.



From this website

http://www.hanover.com/thg/tools/safety/pdf/171-0681.pdf



1. The Federal Motor Carrier Safety

Regulations apply to your operations if

you operate a commercial motor vehicle to

transport property or passengers in interstate

commerce. Exceptions: The FMCSR

does not apply to the private transportation

of passengers but only to the for-hire

transportation of passengers.



You may have been confused by this paragraph



2. A “commercial motor vehicle” is:

a. A truck with a GVWR or GCWR over

10,001 pounds



so it is important you not take a sentence out of context and read the whole document.

 

[HBarlow]

Same here, but remember I gave up the 'legit' aspect of it a year ago. And with rates the way they are now:{#@$%!, not really interested in doing it legit right now... or illegit !! :-laf

I had forgotten you were no longer engaged in commercial hauling. Don't blame you, I miss it but am not going back.

I bought a farmhouse along US Hwy 82 in Crosby County, TX last fall. It sits on the highway and I can watch the cars and trucks rolling by. I have noticed a lot of flatbed tractor trailers passing by empty and a few tractors deadheading without a load as well. It appears that the economic recession is taking a toll on trucking.

 

[Bob Cochran]

Bob,



I'm not sure what in this thread prompted your political speech or who it was addressed to. I agree in principle with you but think you are misunderstanding this issue and I disagree with you on the issue of interstate trucking and interstate DOT rules.



I don't remember reading a post in this thread proposing that the fed impose and enforce transportation laws over the states. I believe all states have voluntarily adopted the federal DOT code in its entirety.



You are looking at the issue from the narrow point of view of a resident of one state who perhaps has never driven commercially and interstate. Commercial interstate transportation is a vital part of our national economy. Without commercial trucking our economy would shut down within days. It would be nearly impossible for trucking companies and commercial drivers to operate nationwide if each state chose to impose all their own goofy and narrowly focused rules on regulations on truckers trying to operate in all 48. Truckers already spend hours each day in some regions stopping at state points of entry, weighing on scales, taking their paperwork inside to be inspected, undergoing DOT vehicle inspections, and being pulled over for routine roadside inspections. And all states currently enforce federal DOT rules that govern commercial trucking!



On edit: I might also remind that regulation of interstate commerce IS in the US Constitution as one of the legitimate duties of the federal government. If regulation of interstate trucking isn't a major part of interstate commerce I don't know what would be.



I do agree with your lecture to other members that they should learn the rules and comply.

I was not directing my post to any particular individual as I chose to keep comments when ever possible general as it prompts less hard feelings. To address your concerns, drove for many years/miles all States including Canada commercially. My younger brother still does and probably will to the day he dies. I only occasionally ride along just to keep a hand in some, guess will always miss it but not enough to start again. If it is required to use a class 8 tractor(friend has one well maintained, low miles, good price) to tow my RV and a CDL A I will, so will you, but what about the others. Come to think of it why should I care since it will only minimally impact me. I will know the rules and laws of each states as I did before. Cannot know how a LEO will interpret or enforce laws in each state though if federal, state, local. Will have to rely on a Judge(if he is not the LEO's brother in-law should work).



If we think federal regulation is all so perfect we then must agree as a former Driver and I am sure all Drivers will agree with NAFTA and DOT rules current and proposed on Mexican trucks and drivers entering the USA!!! After all they know what is best for everyone of us( I am being factitious, sorry). "I might also remind that regulation of interstate commerce IS in the US Constitution as one of the legitimate duties of the federal government. If regulation of interstate trucking isn't a major part of interstate commerce I don't know what would be. " Yes and so is international commerce as well even more so. So stop complaining about NAFTA!!! After all they have done so good in the past they can do no wrong. As a supporter and member of the OOIDA(for those who don't know OOIDA=Owner-Operators Independent Drivers Association) yes for many years a Owner-Operator. Yes, I understand perfectly how vital trucking is and I also understand more importantly how each chip taken away by the federal government takes away the freedom to keep trucking being a vital part of the USA's economy. Assuming who someone is from a post is not usually a good idea so I try very hard not to. Yep I am posting out of ignorance as you can see!!! Every time we allow this from federal government that have no clue we ALL LOSE!!!!



Ok I will not be responding positively or negative here as it will serve no purpose. I have said my peace and that is it. I will follow though as it is a learning experience for me to see how people think and I enjoy doing so. Perhaps I read these threads to closely and react inappropriately, if so I apologize. I can from these type of threads learn how we got to where we are; be it good or bad.



Thanks for letting me post I feel better now. No need to put me on your ignore list now!!! :-laf

 

[HBarlow]

Bob,

I'm at least as hardline conservative anti-federal government as you are, maybe even moreso. We could probably enjoy criticising together. I am no fan or NAFTA or most other federal regulation.

All I am willing to accept and support is standardization of DOT rules. I can learn what the rules are and comply IF I know what they are on a nationwide basis. I am opposed to 48 or 49 different DOT rulebooks which would be a nightmare for anyone traveling nationwide and subject to the rules.

I'm not putting you or anyone else on my ignore list. There are a few names on TDR whose posts I don't read but I read every post that interests me. Agree with many, disagree with a few.

 

[Bob Cochran]

Bob,



I'm at least as hardline conservative anti-federal government as you are, maybe even moreso. We could probably enjoy criticising together. I am no fan or NAFTA or most other federal regulation.



All I am willing to accept and support is standardization of DOT rules. I can learn what the rules are and comply IF I know what they are on a nationwide basis. I am opposed to 48 or 49 different DOT rulebooks which would be a nightmare for anyone traveling nationwide and subject to the rules.



I'm not putting you or anyone else on my ignore list. There are a few names on TDR whose posts I don't read but I read every post that interests me. Agree with many, disagree with a few.

I think we could have an interesting discussion and fun. Not anti-federal government rather limited federal government as our founding fathers wanted. Be careful what you wish for as it seems when we let the feds do anything, no matter how small, it leads to a bureaucratic mess worse than before and we lose. From my past experience I just cannot visual any laws, regulations, etc. from the feds being less confusing. Maybe at first, but they will be sure to change and modify it tell it is without notification or input from knowledgeable industry professional. Then again if we put in the same effort we need to for the existing differing DOT reg's maybe it will be easier but at what cost? Thanks for the exchange it was interesting. I will paraphrase was it not Ronald Regan who said" if someone shows up from the federal government and says I am here to help. Be afraid, very afraid" . I don't necessarily agree with Ronny except less fed government is better and some of his quips like this one. Have a great weekend.

 

[BHaden]

According to OH state law, if you pull a trailer with a gvw of 10,001 lb, (again, RV's exempt) you must have a COMMERCIAL DRIVERS LICENSE, CLASS A. Even if you are pulling that trailer empty, and you hit the scale at say, 11k (empty truck, empty trailer) gotta have a CDL class A... Here they dont care what you weigh, they go off of gvw's. Thats why the officer who stopped me, told me I need a class a. I was under 26k weight, but my gn had a gvw of 14k, which automatically falls into the class a category. Ill post up the lil picture in the cdl manual this afternoon which is actually very informative on who needs what for what reason

I read the Fed regs a few years ago and I thought the example you give above was OK. If you have a regular class C license, bumper pull trailers had to be 10,000 or less but GNs and fifth wheels were OK to 15,000 as long as total GCW was under 26,000 and all the axle weights were under spec.



However it turns out, I think the RV mfrs and sales people are really screwing

buyers by not telling them some of this stuff. My Son-in-laws dad went out 5 years ago and bought/was sold a three axle fifth wheel with a GVWR tag that said 17,400 to tow from Ca to Vermont with a Ford 2500 6. 0 Power Stroke (!!!!!!). After he got it home and spent 3 hours trying to get it parked (40 feet long and very tight rural winding country road) a local CHP resident with a reputation as something of an A-hole, came by one day and was nice enought to inform him that if he saw him driving that rig with his class C he'd ticket him and confiscate the trailer.

He' would need to get a class A to tow it. Since health problems prevented that (health problems; another aspect of this thread) he would have to get some one else to move it for him. The trailer has sat where he parked it 5 years ago and is up for sale. In a convoluted way his whole life is a mess because he was sold something he can't even use. There are other contributing factors, but if he could at least tow the Trailer he could have left Ca. for where he wanted to retire to.

 

[SRath]

I have, on more than one occassion, been called at home by contractor friends who have been shut down on the spot and fined for towing their skidloader with their small dump truck, to come drive their vehicle somewhere. The weight and everything was OK, but the driver/owner did not have the necessary endorsement. The DOT loves targeting those guys. Especially after the Great Flood here a year ago when desperate cleanup efforts were underway. Easy money for lazy bureaucrats...

 

[HBarlow]

I read the Fed regs a few years ago and I thought the example you give above was OK. If you have a regular class C license, bumper pull trailers had to be 10,000 or less but GNs and fifth wheels were OK to 15,000 as long as total GCW was under 26,000 and all the axle weights were under spec.

However it turns out, I think the RV mfrs and sales people are really screwing buyers by not telling them some of this stuff. My Son-in-laws dad went out 5 years ago and bought/was sold a three axle fifth wheel with a GVWR tag that said 17,400 to tow from Ca to Vermont with a Ford 2500 6. 0 Power Stroke (!!!!!!). After he got it home and spent 3 hours trying to get it parked (40 feet long and very tight rural winding country road) a local CHP resident with a reputation as something of an A-hole, came by one day and was nice enought to inform him that if he saw him driving that rig with his class C he'd ticket him and confiscate the trailer.
He' would need to get a class A to tow it. Since health problems prevented that (health problems; another aspect of this thread) he would have to get some one else to move it for him. The trailer has sat where he parked it 5 years ago and is up for sale. In a convoluted way his whole life is a mess because he was sold something he can't even use. There are other contributing factors, but if he could at least tow the Trailer he could have left Ca. for where he wanted to retire to.

The situation you described above and the preceding post are state driver's license requirements ONLY. The states of Ohio, California, and several others have a requirement for an upgraded driver license in their states for towing heavy trailers. What you refer to as a "Class A" license is a CA Class A operator's license.

I towed many fifth wheels rated heavier than 10,001 lbs. across both Ohio and California with a Texas Class C Operator's License before I got my CDL A. All states accept the license that is legal in the driver's home state.

Where in this discussion does your relative with the Furd and heavy fifth wheel have any responsibility for buying something he can't tow with the license he holds or the truck he wants to tow it with?

If I go out to the local airport and buy an airplane and try to fly away in it is it the fault of the man who sells it to me that I have no pilot's license and no clue how to fly an airplane?

Why didn't your relative simply contact one of the several RV transport companies anyone can find on-line and hire an RV tranporter to show up at his residence and tow it wherever he wanted it delivered?

He could have driven his POS Furd Sick. Ohhh, if it would start and run, to the nearest Dodge dealer and traded it for a 3500 DRW Ram to tow it or, better yet, for a trailer that size and weight, he could have traded it for an IH or FL MDT.

I believe in personal responsibility. If I do something stupid that harms me I consider it MY FAULT.

I don't remember when I first learned that my responsibility is to know the law. Stated another way, "ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law. " I think I learned that concept in elementary school.

 

[CHudacko]

Re:$590 Fine yesterday for not enough license

Hi All,



As a fellow NC'er and new CTD owner the NC weighted plate system has had me trying to figure out how much I should license my truck for. My old '95

Dakota was easy. It had a max tow rating of 10500#, it's empty weight with a nearly full tank of fuel was 4200#, and my primary trailer weighs about 1800# & has a 8800#max load cap.

I had the Dakota license with a standard plate at 5000# and was legal to 9000# with it. Most of the collector cars I pulled where under 3000# but I do have a couple in the collection that are up around 7000#, hence I knew I needed a bigger truck for a long time.



But to the point of this thread: Cumminz If you haven't been to court yet You should Fight this ticket!

I can't be the only one that noticed that it's incorrect, you got 4 axles in your combo not 3 as stated on the ticket ! Even taking into account that most of the weight is on the front of the trailer, the 3rd/4th axles should be reading about 4600#'s each.



If anything you should be able to get this fine reduced if not thrown out completely. Show the DA or Judge your photos and point out this mistake that the officer made.

 

[BHaden]

The situation you described above and the preceding post are state driver's license requirements ONLY. The states of Ohio, California, and several others have a requirement for an upgraded driver license in their states for towing heavy trailers. What you refer to as a "Class A" license is a CA Class A operator's license.



I towed many fifth wheels rated heavier than 10,001 lbs. across both Ohio and California with a Texas Class C Operator's License before I got my CDL A. All states accept the license that is legal in the driver's home state.



Where in this discussion does your relative with the Furd and heavy fifth wheel have any responsibility for buying something he can't tow with the license he holds or the truck he wants to tow it with?



If I go out to the local airport and buy an airplane and try to fly away in it is it the fault of the man who sells it to me that I have no pilot's license and no clue how to fly an airplane?



Why didn't your relative simply contact one of the several RV transport companies anyone can find on-line and hire an RV tranporter to show up at his residence and tow it wherever he wanted it delivered?



He could have driven his POS Furd Sick. Ohhh, if it would start and run, to the nearest Dodge dealer and traded it for a 3500 DRW Ram to tow it or, better yet, for a trailer that size and weight, he could have traded it for an IH or FL MDT.



I believe in personal responsibility. If I do something stupid that harms me I consider it MY FAULT.



I don't remember when I first learned that my responsibility is to know the law. Stated another way, "ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law. " I think I learned that concept in elementary school.

*****************************************************

Geeezz. Sorry I wasn't clear. I don't for ONE MINUTE believe people like this guy are NOT responsible for situations like this , ultimately. He bought the truck first and THEN went looking for a trailer. If he pulls into the RV lot in an F250 and says he wants a 17000lb 40 footer, it would be nice if the sales folks pointed out to him that he didn't have enough truck or license to do so. If they do and he insists then it's all on him. I'll also bet a lot of people don't even know there are regs for stuff like this. Mr Furd in this case thinks his truck "... can tow 26000lbs. . " He actually said that to me, after all the above took place, so he's not a mental giant in matters of this sort. He's obviously confusing GCWR numbers with towing numbers. I did not argue with him in the interest of family harmony; the damage had already been done.



I ABSOLUTELY believe in personal respopnsibilty. I did not say he should sue anybody or anything and he shouldn't. I researched the snot out of this subject before I bought the truck in my sig (don't have a trailer yet) a lot of that on this forum. I looked up the Fed and Ca state regs and tried to make sense out of it all. That's how I ended up with a 3500 dually. It's enough truck for what I want to do (5th wheel, 15k or less, in the 33-35 foot range).

 

[HBarlow]

*****************************************************
Geeezz. Sorry I wasn't clear. I don't for ONE MINUTE believe people like this guy are NOT responsible for situations like this , ultimately. He bought the truck first and THEN went looking for a trailer. If he pulls into the RV lot in an F250 and says he wants a 17000lb 40 footer, it would be nice if the sales folks pointed out to him that he didn't have enough truck or license to do so. If they do and he insists then it's all on him. I'll also bet a lot of people don't even know there are regs for stuff like this. Mr Furd in this case thinks his truck "... can tow 26000lbs. . " He actually said that to me, after all the above took place, so he's not a mental giant in matters of this sort. He's obviously confusing GCWR numbers with towing numbers. I did not argue with him in the interest of family harmony; the damage had already been done.

I ABSOLUTELY believe in personal respopnsibilty. I did not say he should sue anybody or anything and he shouldn't. I researched the snot out of this subject before I bought the truck in my sig (don't have a trailer yet) a lot of that on this forum. I looked up the Fed and Ca state regs and tried to make sense out of it all. That's how I ended up with a 3500 dually. It's enough truck for what I want to do (5th wheel, 15k or less, in the 33-35 foot range).

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts on the matter. You and I are on the same page. I guess we all have a friend or family member who makes similar decisions and hold similar points of view.

The numbers of Furd Sick. Ohhs sold is solid proof of the numbers of uninformed buyers among the general population.

 

[JKloppe]

Small hills become big hills at this weight.

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