6.0 Powerstroke vs. 5.9 Cummins

[smartineau]

biased yes, get the cummins!!!!! every mechanic i have ever asked has said that a diesel should be an inline configuration, not a 'V'



As far as a guinea pig goes sure we 03 owners are guinea pigs. I just finally picked mine up today. Almost every model year they (the manufacturers) do some sort of upgrade, some are good some really suck. My mom had a 93?(first year) chevy 6. 5 not problem one and they towed a 29' fifth wheel and put on over 150,000 miles. The next year chevy modified something and it had tons of problems. In 95 chevy supposedly put everything back to the ways things were in 93' my brother bought one of those. He has been stranded many times and had more shop time than one can add up. Please don't be mad but I believe that luck of the draw plays a large part in if you have a long lasting trouble free vehicle.



In 1985 I bought the first new body style VW GTI, I was a 20 year old GI at FT Benning GA and ran the living pee out of that car. I changed oil every 10,000 or so miles, did plugs cap and rotor at about 120,000. It just kept running, I did do brakes and tires also. I sold it with about 160,000 on it, sometimes the first model year is not a bad thing.



steve

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by smartineau



I believe that luck of the draw plays a large part in if you have a long lasting trouble free vehicle.

steve

I think your right, especially when your dealing with a quality vehicle like the Dodge Cummins. I think if there are any common problems Dodge will take care of them without a hassle. From reading most of the posts on this site for the last couple of years and considering you will hear negative comments much more often the positive. The Dodge CTD is one well made vehicle.

 

[R.E. Miller]

Just the old .02 c

I have two first generation rotary cummins/dodge trucks at my house, and I am very happy with them, the engines are very durable considering the way they are used, and the power is right where it is nice.



I have a little different perspective then most since I spend every day working on the brand of diesel that is under our hoods. I would have to say that mechanical durability wise, between the big three, the cummins rates highest right next to the PSD, haven't seen/heard enough about the GM product yet. I do have concerns about the single cam bushing that the "B's" have, but it doesn't seem to phase them. The piston cooling nozzles on the "B's" are a bit annoying, it wouldn't have been to hard to make them better, like the ones that are used in the 03' high Hp product, or the bigger engines. If you ever break one and have to remove the crank to fix it, you'll get the idea. The old fuel systems on the "B's" were fundamentally bullet-proof. For the PSD, this is where I hold a high regard, the HEUI injection system, although electronically complex (not really, anymore/ but comparatively speaking) is what I would say new age bullet-proof. I just see it being more proven, in more applications, and not as sensitive as the VP-44 and CAPS pumps that the Cummins use. Not that things aren't changing, but I think, here goes the opinion again, that the 24v would have been an excellent engine had there been one of things done differentlly. A: Run a better ECM with "fail-safe features" to help alert operators of adverse conditions regarding pump operation(i. e. Not just an idiot light that says check engine, one like "fuel restriction" or "fuel temp high" with optional auto shut-down. ) Or, my personal favorite, an ISB or ISC with a HEUI injection system, the total engine would be much more simple. I do realize that this would have required revamp of head and fuel system, but man how nice? This might seem off subject, but it is important, the competition is always solving the same problem differently, sometimes good, sometimes... . All in all, I would buy a PSD if it were in an application that was servicable, had a/I would be able to make a better oil filter set-up that wouldn't shower you with oil, had no glow plugs, and that is about it. I am just tired of seeing in-line six diesels that mechanically are fine, but are subject to the "You are the weakest link" with the finger pointed right at the fuel system.



Russell



P. S. Just a clarification here, this is just engine speaking here. I would have to just say no to paying money for another Ford. I have my justified reasons, I am not just another flame starter. Honestly, Ford MD/HD trucks are designed to be run and junked, mechanical construction standpoint. I worked on a Ford yesterday, that was built so that you would be better off throwing the truck away then trying to put an engine in it... . drives me nuts :-{}

 

[Jeremiah]

Re: Just the old .02 c

Originally posted by R. E. Miller

I have two first generation rotary cummins/dodge trucks at my house, and I am very happy with them, the engines are very durable considering the way they are used, and the power is right where it is nice.



I have a little different perspective then most since I spend every day working on the brand of diesel that is under our hoods. I would have to say that mechanical durability wise, between the big three, the cummins rates highest right next to the PSD, haven't seen/heard enough about the GM product yet. I do have concerns about the single cam bushing that the "B's" have, but it doesn't seem to phase them. The piston cooling nozzles on the "B's" are a bit annoying, it wouldn't have been to hard to make them better, like the ones that are used in the 03' high Hp product, or the bigger engines. If you ever break one and have to remove the crank to fix it, you'll get the idea. The old fuel systems on the "B's" were fundamentally bullet-proof. For the PSD, this is where I hold a high regard, the HEUI injection system, although electronically complex (not really, anymore/ but comparatively speaking) is what I would say new age bullet-proof. I just see it being more proven, in more applications, and not as sensitive as the VP-44 and CAPS pumps that the Cummins use. Not that things aren't changing, but I think, here goes the opinion again, that the 24v would have been an excellent engine had there been one of things done differentlly. A: Run a better ECM with "fail-safe features" to help alert operators of adverse conditions regarding pump operation(i. e. Not just an idiot light that says check engine, one like "fuel restriction" or "fuel temp high" with optional auto shut-down. ) Or, my personal favorite, an ISB or ISC with a HEUI injection system, the total engine would be much more simple. I do realize that this would have required revamp of head and fuel system, but man how nice? This might seem off subject, but it is important, the competition is always solving the same problem differently, sometimes good, sometimes... . All in all, I would buy a PSD if it were in an application that was servicable, had a/I would be able to make a better oil filter set-up that wouldn't shower you with oil, had no glow plugs, and that is about it. I am just tired of seeing in-line six diesels that mechanically are fine, but are subject to the "You are the weakest link" with the finger pointed right at the fuel system.



Russell



P. S. Just a clarification here, this is just engine speaking here. I would have to just say no to paying money for another Ford. I have my justified reasons, I am not just another flame starter. Honestly, Ford MD/HD trucks are designed to be run and junked, mechanical construction standpoint. I worked on a Ford yesterday, that was built so that you would be better off throwing the truck away then trying to put an engine in it... . drives me nuts :-{}

I think I know where you are coming from, Russell. A friend of mine owns Sturman Industries in Woodland Park, Colo. He is a engineering genius and has a contract of some sort with Navistar. My friend invented a computerized valve (there will be no mechanical valves in the new engine) that will allow triple the fuel mileage vehicles get today. He urged me to buy a Ford diesel because, as he put it, you are out of business if the single cam (or was it a valve of some sort - I dunno) fails on a Cummins engine. He said pressures inside the Cummins are enormous; he also said the Ford will keep right on running if the same part fails in it. Now, I am not a mechanic and I am not even sure I said that right, but I'm sure you get the picture. Did I follow his advice? I did not because I wanted a Dodge w/the Cummins engine! The '03 HO is awesome!

 

[Jeremiah]

Originally posted by smartineau

biased yes, get the cummins!!!!! every mechanic i have ever asked has said that a diesel should be an inline configuration, not a 'V'



As far as a guinea pig goes sure we 03 owners are guinea pigs. I just finally picked mine up today. Almost every model year they (the manufacturers) do some sort of upgrade, some are good some really suck. My mom had a 93?(first year) chevy 6. 5 not problem one and they towed a 29' fifth wheel and put on over 150,000 miles. The next year chevy modified something and it had tons of problems. In 95 chevy supposedly put everything back to the ways things were in 93' my brother bought one of those. He has been stranded many times and had more shop time than one can add up. Please don't be mad but I believe that luck of the draw plays a large part in if you have a long lasting trouble free vehicle.



In 1985 I bought the first new body style VW GTI, I was a 20 year old GI at FT Benning GA and ran the living pee out of that car. I changed oil every 10,000 or so miles, did plugs cap and rotor at about 120,000. It just kept running, I did do brakes and tires also. I sold it with about 160,000 on it, sometimes the first model year is not a bad thing.



steve

I know this is a Dodge/Cummins board but I thought I'd mention that my wife is still driving a '90 Accord with 324,000 MILES ON IT! Same engine, same clutch, same everything it came with! All I've done is routine maintenance and change oil and filter ever 3K.

 

[WadePatton]

Originally posted by Jeremiah

I know this is a Dodge/Cummins board but I thought I'd mention that my wife is still driving a '90 Accord with 324,000 MILES ON IT! Same engine, same clutch, same everything it came with! All I've done is routine maintenance and change oil and filter ever 3K.

The pickup I replaced with the CTD has 329,000 on it with original 302/5-speed -just installed the third clutch. It's a '90 as well. It'd have 350,000 on it if I were still driving it.

 

[D808]

Every time I see a brand X, the words "Chinese copy of a Dodge" come to mind!!! But that's just my humble opinion.



Federal Man

 

[R.E. Miller]

Re: Re: Just the old .02 c

Originally posted by Jeremiah

I think I know where you are coming from, Russell. A friend of mine owns Sturman Industries in Woodland Park, Colo. He is a engineering genius and has a contract of some sort with Navistar. My friend invented a computerized valve (there will be no mechanical valves in the new engine) that will allow triple the fuel mileage vehicles get today. He urged me to buy a Ford diesel because, as he put it, you are out of business if the single cam (or was it a valve of some sort - I dunno) fails on a Cummins engine. He said pressures inside the Cummins are enormous; he also said the Ford will keep right on running if the same part fails in it. Now, I am not a mechanic and I am not even sure I said that right, but I'm sure you get the picture. Did I follow his advice? I did not because I wanted a Dodge w/the Cummins engine! The '03 HO is awesome!

This is another good point, most are not aware of what International has been working on for quite some time... . the cam-less engine. In the sense of infinite control on timing for both emissions and power, there will be no equal. Think about it, no more hi-po cam installs, a chip could give you that idle grunt of a high lift cam when cruising the town, then you couls change it for economy when rolling down the road... . real cool. Another rumor is that International is working on a starter-less diesel too... . a lot of less here Hybrid glow plugs, smart ecm, real good cam posistion sensor, yeehaw, until it doesn't work in the cold, remote, location that you are at, I'm just a mechanical man, electronics will get me some day



Russell

 

[Pit Bull]

Re: Just the old .02 c

Originally posted by R. E. Miller



For the PSD, this is where I hold a high regard, the HEUI injection system, although electronically complex (not really, anymore/ but comparatively speaking) is what I would say new age bullet-proof. I just see it being more proven, in more applications, and not as sensitive as the VP-44 and CAPS pumps that the Cummins use.

Russell, It's interesting that you would say this, when I go to the Ford site all they talk about is how screwed up their full systems are and the Cackle problem. That they claim damages the engine.

 

[Pit Bull]

Re: Re: Just the old .02 c

Originally posted by Jeremiah

I think I know where you are coming from, Russell. A friend of mine owns Sturman Industries in Woodland Park, Colo. He is a engineering genius and has a contract of some sort with Navistar. My friend invented a computerized valve (there will be no mechanical valves in the new engine) that will allow triple the fuel mileage vehicles get today. He urged me to buy a Ford diesel because, as he put it, you are out of business if the single cam (or was it a valve of some sort - I dunno) fails on a Cummins engine. He said pressures inside the Cummins are enormous; he also said the Ford will keep right on running if the same part fails in it. Now, I am not a mechanic and I am not even sure I said that right, but I'm sure you get the picture. Did I follow his advice? I did not because I wanted a Dodge w/the Cummins engine! The '03 HO is awesome!

Jeremiah, he maybe a genius but it does not sound like he has much common sense . In sales we called what your friend was saying "FUD" theory. (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). It normally has a limited bases in real world fact, but it will help support the speakers position until they can come up with something that really works. Glad you did not fall for it and bought the Cummins

 

[kshimizu]

I found an interesting article about the new Ford King Ranch Dually that has a few different test vs Dodge and Chevy. There's a chart in the article that shows the Dodge is 0. 5 db quieter at idle outside but about 4-5 db louder in the cab while idling. They also did a towing test pulling 12500# and the standard output Dodge with an auto was barely beat by the Chevy. Anyways here's the article I found http://www.horsetrailers-online.com/home/mrtruckarticlesNov02.asp and if you do some browsing around www.mrtruck.net there are some other articles to read.

 

[737driver]

Does anybody know if the 03 3500 with the SO and auto trans has a trans cooler?



Thanks

 

[Prairie Dog]

Yes 737driver, they have an enormous one mounted just above the also large engine oil cooler. combined, these two they cover the entire surface of the radiator. To top that all off they have a thermal/electric fan like the big rigs do!

 

[Jeremiah]

Originally posted by kshimizu

I found an interesting article about the new Ford King Ranch Dually that has a few different test vs Dodge and Chevy. There's a chart in the article that shows the Dodge is 0. 5 db quieter at idle outside but about 4-5 db louder in the cab while idling. They also did a towing test pulling 12500# and the standard output Dodge with an auto was barely beat by the Chevy. Anyways here's the article I found http://www.horsetrailers-online.com/home/mrtruckarticlesNov02.asp and if you do some browsing around www.mrtruck.net there are some other articles to read.

Thanks for the post. I will check out those sites. Tell me about your Hadley bully air horn. Where did you get, was it difficult to install, and I wonder whether it will fit under the hood of an 03.

 

[Jeremiah]

Re: Re: Re: Just the old .02 c

Originally posted by Pit Bull

Jeremiah, he maybe a genius but it does not sound like he has much common sense . In sales we called what your friend was saying "FUD" theory. (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). It normally has a limited bases in real world fact, but it will help support the speakers position until they can come up with something that really works. Glad you did not fall for it and bought the Cummins

I will quote from another web page referred to us by another writer: "Two more valves per cylinder have been added to this all-new cast iron Power Stroke diesel for improved breathing and a new efficient digitally controlled hydraulic injector cranks out 26,000 psi of pressure to atomize the fuel for a cleaner more powerful combustion that is quieter do to pilot injection and more powerful than the 7. 3L Power Stroke it replaces. The engine's new hydraulically actuated G2. 8SV injectors will be sourced from a new U. S. joint venture with Siemens AG. The digital actuators, were developed by Navistar in a joint venture with the Colorado-based Sturman Engine Systems (Eddie Sturman, pres. ). The digital valve actuator, without the spring that a conventional solenoid actuator has, is faster using residual magnetism. This new digital valve accounts for some of the improvement in NOx emissions, and quieter pilot fuel injection timing. The whole Sturman digital valve story can be seen in the news section of MrTruck.net. "

 

[Pit Bull]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Just the old .02 c

Originally posted by Jeremiah



This new digital valve accounts for some of the improvement in NOx emissions, and quieter pilot fuel injection timing. The whole Sturman digital valve story can be seen in the news section of MrTruck.net. "

I guess it depends on what is important to you as a buyer? I bought the last of the 2002's because I like my diesels (loud). The improvement in NOx is a good thing, but not a selling point to me. Now the new Cummins is muted and the new Cummins meets the current NOx standard or they could not sell it. Why was your friend saying to buy the Ford??? I'm not a fan of technical complexity, that I know is necessary to meet the new government standards. I wish our diesels were more like the 12 valve (mechanical versus electronic). I am sure the new Ford is a great engine, its just not for me and it looks like it was not for you By the way what did your friend say when you bought the Cummins

 

[Jeremiah]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just the old .02 c

Originally posted by Pit Bull

I guess it depends on what is important to you as a buyer? I bought the last of the 2002's because I like my diesels (loud). The improvement in NOx is a good thing, but not a selling point to me. Now the new Cummins is muted and the new Cummins meets the current NOx standard or they could not sell it. Why was your friend saying to buy the Ford??? I'm not a fan of technical complexity, that I know is necessary to meet the new government standards. I wish our diesels were more like the 12 valve (mechanical versus electronic). I am sure the new Ford is a great engine, its just not for me and it looks like it was not for you By the way what did your friend say when you bought the Cummins

He doesn't know I bought it yet. OTOH, in an era where we've put a man on the moon (decades ago) and have made huge strides elsewhere, it doesn't make sense that engines would still have metal parts flying in one direction that suddenly stop and fly in another direction just because valves open and shoot fuel into a cylinder so it can explode in order to drive wheels that turn and rods that push in order to haul around several thousand pounds of steel. Very inefficient. I guess this sounds like a push for the old rotary engine, huh? Not really. But just as the jet (and turbine) engine began to replace the reciprocating engines of the 1940s, sooner or later we WILL come up with SOMETHING to replace automobile engines as we know them.

 

[geusterman]

I was in Israel last week and rode in a 1995 Mercedes diesel (inline 5) taxi with 640,000 km's and still original engine and auto trans. Granted, it was a little noisier than new but running fine. George

 

[Jeremiah]

Originally posted by geusterman

I was in Israel last week and rode in a 1995 Mercedes diesel (inline 5) taxi with 640,000 km's and still original engine and auto trans. Granted, it was a little noisier than new but running fine. George

H-m-m-m. 397,000 miles, huh? Those little engines just go and go. I owned a 1969 220D and it ran like a top. I sold it because the maintenance inspections and upkeep got too expensive for my budget.

 

[MattSt]

Originally posted by kshimizu

I found an interesting article about the new Ford King Ranch Dually that has a few different test vs Dodge and Chevy. There's a chart in the article that shows the Dodge is 0. 5 db quieter at idle outside but about 4-5 db louder in the cab while idling. They also did a towing test pulling 12500# and the standard output Dodge with an auto was barely beat by the Chevy. Anyways here's the article I found http://www.horsetrailers-online.com/home/mrtruckarticlesNov02.asp and if you do some browsing around www.mrtruck.net there are some other articles to read.

Good comparison. It's nice that they tested them with some weight behind them. One thing I wish they would have listed was the current mileage of each truck. My brothers 01 HO CTD was a real dog till it hit about 5000 miles. Then it was like the flood gates were opened. My new 03 feels strong even though it only has 250 miles on it and I'm trying to take it easy. But I know there is more potential just waiting to get broke in. Mine has a odd dead spot from 2500-2900. I'm sure it's nothing a chip and exhaust can't fix.



Also to answer the question. I like the looks of all of the listed trucks. I bought the CTD for power WITH reliability. A friend of mine has a 01 PSD with 420 hp 1000+ tq at the rear wheels. It only has 20,000 miles and I could have bought it for $32,000. I had nightmares of the crank breaking in half and all the interior rattles/poor fit and finish that you get with a Ford.