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6th gear noise under load only

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I have an issue with an 04 4x4 with a 6 speed... 6th gear... only when I have a pretty good load on the truck and pulling up a grade. I noticed it a couple years ago when the truck was loaded down and going up a pass in CO. when I would accelerate or just have a pretty good load on the drive train the truck would make a pretty load "grinding noise" if I let off the accelerate a little to change lanes due to traffic and also when down shifting as I would unload the drive line to shift to 5th. I figured it was the clutch but I had a new clutch installed this year and the noise was worse and I quite using 6th in hard uphill pulls all together due to the increase. Anyone know what it might be... I did a search but didn't find anything that sounded like what was going on with mine. :confused:
 
What is the fluid level like? Changed recently? Anything on the magnet in the bottom of the trans?
 
not lugging it does it around 1500 to 1600. did change fluid last year, clean oil came out no sign of excessive ware on plug... its due now will change soon. my trans has always been hard to get into reverse as well... and I have noticed the shifting has become a little more difficult between gears. I have 158k on the truck... also have bully dog stays in tow mode.
 
I have hauled many loads in many different conditions (and in many different types of equipment/trucks) and IMHO when you get below 1400rpms that's what I would call lugging. 1800 is much better I will admit that. someone with a little more knowledge and info should have the torque curve on this engine which may change my mind :eek:. I have made the same trip for 18 years and in this truck since it was new. I have never had a problem hauling AZZ up any of the passes with pretty much the same load until the last couple years and this one in particular because I didn't like the sound of the transmission in 6th. no problems in 5th at the same RPM's. sounds to me like it is coming from the bell housing area that is why I initially thought it was the clutch. I have inspected the exhaust to see if maybe the torque under load was causing some sort problem there but have found nothing wrong there.
 
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04 peak tq is 1400 and 04. 5 is 1600, Cummins doesn't want sustained full load below peak tq, which is 1 definition of lugging. The other is when more fuel doesn't equal more rpms, which can happen at any rpm.

I will pull at 1600 or so sometimes in 6th but it makes more trans noise than if I am at 1800 plus, so I just downshift. . that also makes for cooler EGTs, coolant, more oil pressure, etc.
 
The Cummins engine in your truck produces maximum torque in a flat band from 1600 up to about 2700 or 2900 rpm, I've forgotten which. Applying heavy throttle at 1400 rpm is not a good plan.

Using full throttle at low rpm as you are doing is rattling the gears in the NV-5600 with the low rpm power pulses. It's not a good practice for long transmission life. Downshifting would be better.
 
not lugging it does it around 1500 to 1600. did change fluid last year, clean oil came out no sign of excessive ware on plug...



If your actually driving in that range your lugging it right into the torsional harmonics range that is the most damaging. NEVER run that trans under load under 1800 rpms or you will trash it, they do not like it at all. You have probably damaged 6th gear and thats what the noise is.
 
I put 325,000 miles on an '01/HO six speed towing heavy trailers with it for the majority of those miles. The large bearing that commonly fails without additional lubrication was worn and got noisy at 300,000 miles so Standard Transmission in Fort Worth rebuilt it at 305,000 miles.

All trucks of that era would rattle the transmissions, even day one with zero miles, if the driver allowed the engine to idle down to low rpm when turning a corner or entering a parking lot and then accelerated, even gently, in third gear.

I ran that '01 325,000 miles allowing it to pull hard at 1600 rpm, not below, but at 1600 rpm or above, at full throttle, under heavy load. If it would hold 1600 rpm I let it pull at full throttle. That truck climbed thousands of grades like that. As long as it could hold 1600 rpm or gain engine speed slightly and EGT did not exceed 1325* I kept my foot in it.

The engine produces full torque at 1600 rpm and the Cummins manual for that engine encourages using it. I believed the Cummins engineers not TDR self-proclaimed experts and used the full power band.
 
i have never seen/let my EGT go over 1200 that I'm aware of... ( have the triple dog with monitor ) the truck pulls great and after this trip I was curious about the total weight. . pulled it on the scales here at work and truck trailer loaded down with gear was 20,960 (2500 crew cab 4X4 LB SRW with a 20' two axle trailer) i do want to instal an exhaust brake and airbags on the rear after this last trip... ive been meaning to for a few years just havent don it :rolleyes: but the transmission issue needs to be addressed ASAP!
 
Similar situation with the NV4500 (5 -speed). Lugging in 5th gear would actually vibrate the nut loose that held that gear in place. Previous owner of my '98. 5 had it tack welded in place!
So keep it simple, drop to fifth and feed her the coals!! You won't hurt anything.
 
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The engine produces full torque at 1600 rpm and the Cummins manual for that engine encourages using it. I believed the Cummins engineers not TDR self-proclaimed experts and used the full power band. <!-- google_ad_section_end --> <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

True, true, and true. However, the engine producing full torque at xxxx rpm and what's healthy for your drivetrain are two entirely different things... and unfortunately the Cummins engineers didn't design the drivetrains.

While the 5. 9 Cummins can produce full torque at 1600 rpm, that's on the low end of what the transmission likes under load. As you increase torque above stock levels, you need to raise your full throttle lower rpm limit. For example, in my '06 with torque exceeding 1200 ft-lbs, I don't go full throttle until over 1900 - 2000 rpm.

--Eric
 
Installing a better harmonic balancer will get rid of 80-90% of the rattling at those lower speeds in 6th. I'm not saying that makes it ok to run under those conditions but it is a lot more healthy for the drivetrain.
 
The engine produces full torque at 1600 rpm and the Cummins manual for that engine encourages using it.



What an engine can produce and what it does produce is are 2 very different things. I have yet to see ANY experienced Cumnins tech, engineer, etc, advocate trying to roll loads at that rpm as a constant.





Installing a better harmonic balancer will get rid of 80-90% of the rattling at those lower speeds in 6th.



Rotational yes, torsional no. The hard rattle zone of 1500-1700 has never been fully resolved. A DMF and engine TQ management is the attempt to mitigate the results, but, it is impossible to completely remove.
 
what is going on with my truck does not sound like an engine issue/rattle I am convinced it's from the bell housing back guys :D



Understood. What we are talking about originates with the engine and manifests in the drive line.



The torsional harmonics have always been an issue on these LD trucks. It has been well established where these rattle zones are and steps needed to avoid them and the consequences.
 
Understood. What we are talking about originates with the engine and manifests in the drive line.



The torsional harmonics have always been an issue on these LD trucks. It has been well established where these rattle zones are and steps needed to avoid them and the consequences.



cerbersuiam,



Well put.



But I think you can go back as far as the OPEC oil embargo for a starting or transition era for going away from cast iron and 85W140 to the alloy cases (NV5600 is the last cast iron case gearbox I think in a P/U) and anything but 85W140 for gearboxes. Fuel economy IMHO was a big trigger for the increase in complexity in this area of the driveline. Less weight throughout the vehicle, increased power output etc. and in our powerful Dodge Ram's we want gobs of TQ and HP but a quiet comfortable fully featured cab enviroment.



Clutch disc torsion dampers in the 70's used to be a classic 5 spring or maybe a 5 spring outer with 5 inner springs and not much else. I was looking at a disc from the mid 00's and it had about 20 springs in it, these often have idle stage or predamper sections to further reduce noise at idle, want to test it, next time at the drive thru, roll your window down, trans in N and push the pedal down and up several times, hear the transmission? It also changes with trans temp.



The device used to manage the creation of noise in the transmission is called a Torsion Damper, explaining how it works or what it does can hinge on the listeners experience or background. They are usually made with a series of springs, usually being activated in progressive stages, you don't need to hit the 600 lb/ft stage right off of idle and they have some sort of internal friction element applied to the slight rotation of the splined hub. Think of the damper springs as carrying the load and the friction elements as the shock absorbers, not carrying the load but at some ranges slowing the rate of change in hub rotation. As I discuss it with Tech Callers, I often re-name it to a filter rather than damper. Most everyone can understand that we want a filter to remove something un-wanted from what we do want, be it oil, air or even electricity. The spikes from firing impulses and compression cycles that any engine creates are delivered to the F/W then clutch, and then transmission, with these rapid changes in RPM you get the chance to excite the gears into making an undesirable noise. But the role of the damper is not to stop it from being created at the source (the engines output "signature") but to try to filter it from the output and make everyone happy. Next time you are at a county fair with an old engine display, look at those single cylinder thumper engines, notice them generally moving in place and a massive F/W? Try directly connecting that to a gearbox! Those of you that are A/T specialists, don't torque convertors have a damper built into the lockup piston?



In my time working with clutches, getting the pressure plate correct, not a huge challenge for the OE guys, but a big challenge to the engineers that put together the torsion damper section of the disc. My first exposure to this was back in the mid 80's but today with the advanced data acquisition electronics and others, it has come a long way from lets try this combination of springs next.
 
cerbersuiam,



Well put.



But I think you can go back as far as the OPEC oil embargo for a starting or transition era for going away from cast iron and 85W140 to the alloy cases (NV5600 is the last cast iron case gearbox I think in a P/U) and anything but 85W140 for gearboxes. Fuel economy IMHO was a big trigger for the increase in complexity in this area of the driveline. Less weight throughout the vehicle, increased power output etc. and in our powerful Dodge Ram's we want gobs of TQ and HP but a quiet comfortable fully featured cab enviroment.



Clutch disc torsion dampers in the 70's used to be a classic 5 spring or maybe a 5 spring outer with 5 inner springs and not much else. I was looking at a disc from the mid 00's and it had about 20 springs in it, these often have idle stage or predamper sections to further reduce noise at idle, want to test it, next time at the drive thru, roll your window down, trans in N and push the pedal down and up several times, hear the transmission? It also changes with trans temp.



The device used to manage the creation of noise in the transmission is called a Torsion Damper, explaining how it works or what it does can hinge on the listeners experience or background. They are usually made with a series of springs, usually being activated in progressive stages, you don't need to hit the 600 lb/ft stage right off of idle and they have some sort of internal friction element applied to the slight rotation of the splined hub. Think of the damper springs as carrying the load and the friction elements as the shock absorbers, not carrying the load but at some ranges slowing the rate of change in hub rotation. As I discuss it with Tech Callers, I often re-name it to a filter rather than damper. Most everyone can understand that we want a filter to remove something un-wanted from what we do want, be it oil, air or even electricity. The spikes from firing impulses and compression cycles that any engine creates are delivered to the F/W then clutch, and then transmission, with these rapid changes in RPM you get the chance to excite the gears into making an undesirable noise. But the role of the damper is not to stop it from being created at the source (the engines output "signature") but to try to filter it from the output and make everyone happy. Next time you are at a county fair with an old engine display, look at those single cylinder thumper engines, notice them generally moving in place and a massive F/W? Try directly connecting that to a gearbox! Those of you that are A/T specialists, don't torque convertors have a damper built into the lockup piston?



In my time working with clutches, getting the pressure plate correct, not a huge challenge for the OE guys, but a big challenge to the engineers that put together the torsion damper section of the disc. My first exposure to this was back in the mid 80's but today with the advanced data acquisition electronics and others, it has come a long way from lets try this combination of springs next.



Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!
 
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