ABS is dangerous on icy roads

[6 2 Carl]

I am enjoying 4 weeks of job training in Louisiana right now, but when I left Canada two weeks ago I had the pleasure of driving in my first snowstorm with my Ram. I did some experimenting on some very icy roads and was very disappointed with the abs on this truck. When I tried to stop in 4WD I did not slow down at all! It seemed like the abs on the front and rear axles were fighting each other. The front and rear axles would lock and unlock at different rates, causing torque to wind up though the drive train. When I shifted out of 4WD, the ABS felt better, and I actually started to slow down a bit, but it still took a very long time to stop. I know I could stop a lot quicker if I didn’t have abs. The first thing I am going to do when I get back to Canada, is disable the abs.



I hope I can just pull a fuse to disable the abs, or is it more complicated than that?



How does everyone else like their abs, during the winter?

 

[Fireman Dave]

I agree. I don't like the 4 wheel ABS on my wife's car. I could stop better on snow or ice without it. My truck only has it in the rear, so it isn't as bad. I guess I'm just too used to driving without it all these years. Heck, I remember when every car had rear wheel drive - that's when we really knew how to drive in the snow!

 

[bpenrod]

Must be an 04 thing? My 03 stops great in the ice both in and out of 4wd. Wonder if they changed something between the years???

 

[CLAYTON]

Must be an 04 thing? My 03 stops great in the ice both in and out of 4wd. Wonder if they changed something between the years???

Diddo... mine stops like a champ.

 

[Yo Hoot]

Could have something to do with the 315's you're running.

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

I had the pleasure of driving in my first snowstorm with my Ram

This might have had something to do with it too.



Plus, as previously mentioned, fat tires do not do well on ice and snow. I liked 7. 00 x 15s or 7. 50 x 16s in the olden days. Nowadays the 235 are my choice. Oh yeah, imho, because I know there will be a bunch of folks trying to defend phattys.



Personally, I have had several real life abs tests with large hoofed critters and a rapidly approaching fence and I credit the abs for not having a messed up rig.

 

[Casey Balvert]

Mine works great. Of course I only drove it the first winter I had it. Since then it has been stored in the winter. Maybe the ice is just more slippery this year.



Casey

 

[6 2 Carl]

This is my first time driving my ram in the winter, but it most definitely not the first time I have driven in poor winter conditions.



Quote:

"Could have something to do with the 315's you're running. "



The larger/heavier tires could very well be the reason that the ABS did not work properly in 4wd, but I have not driven a vehicle equipped with ABS, that actually improved stopping distances during the winter. I won’t disagree that abs works well on dry pavement or even wet pavement, since most people don’t know how to modulate brakes, and just panic and lock up the brakes in any situation. It just seem like ABS systems are not set up for really slippery conditions.



Quote:

"... fat tires do not do well on ice and snow. I liked 7. 00 x 15s or 7. 50 x 16s in the olden days. Nowadays the 235 are my choice. Oh yeah, imho, because I know there will be a bunch of folks trying to defend phattys. "



I run either studded winter tires, or BFGoodrich All-Terrains every winter. I will admit that the 315’s may be too wide for winter, and that’s probably why the 315’s are the only All Terrains that are not rated as a snow tire. If someone made a quality narrow 17” studable snow tire in a 33” or 35” size, I would buy a set tomorrow, but there doesn’t seem to very much available for our trucks yet. I hope that now that some trucks are coming with 285/70/17 tires. (Nissan Titan, Dodge Power Wagon), that some one will make a snow tire in that size.



Carl

 

[RKohn]

It has nothing to do with the 315's...

I've tested it with several sizes/styles of rubber. DC's ABS system is basically crapola. I can stop a lot quicker with it off, wet or dry. It's just not suited for our application (works fairly well on the wife's minivan though). If you hit a couple little bumps while it's on, it'll fully release and it takes way too long to re-engage. DC's explaination is that it "allows you to maintain the ability to steer and control the vehicle". I can steer if I don't even apply the brakes too; but steering doesn't mean squat once you've rolled through the intersection.

 

[fox]

When I had my y2k 2500, I almost hit a guy in a panic stop. The guy next to me had his window down and asked my why I lifted the brake!! I was about 18 inches from him. I could have gotten it stopped about 50 ' sooner using experience. The road was dry but had sand on one side of the lane.

I found a way to defeat it but if you get into a bad accident you could be in real trouble.

PM me if you have to know. This does require some lnowledge and some soldering.

 

[SilverFox]

I have expressed my dissatisfaction with the ABS system on this forum before. When it releases on a bump it does take forever to come back and when it releases while towing on a smooth surface, it never recovers to what I would consider good braking. My '99 power stroke would also release after a bump but immediately came back and a straight ahead stop felt good all the way through. Even with the poor braking and headlights, I love this truck. And no, I won't disable the ABS. I have learned to think "evasive action" rather than take my chances on a quick stop. The braking is what it is and we'll just have to learn to live with it. This is one thing that the after market boys aren't likely to fix.

 

[realsquash]

Welcome to ABS on a pickup truck people! You should have ridden in my 2000 Chevy K3500. One bump and the brakes were practically gone for a few seconds. And yes, that had 4 wheel ABS.



This truck stops great in 4 wheel drive, without even using ABS. If you rely on ABS for anything in the winter I hope you stay the hell away from me.



Andy

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Guess its just too bad the R&D engineers in the automotive industry didn't consult with you guys before they wasted all that time, energy, and money conjuring up ABS braking systems... deep sigh.



Psst, please don't let this get out to the insurance companies. I get a discount for four wheel ABS. If they knew the REAL story I probably would get penalized. Those dupes.



Perhaps its operator problems? I've learned to "squeeze" the brakes under slick conditions. To me this means easing down on the ABS to the just before the skid point, or backing off slightly if the ABS kicks in. In essence seeking that sweet spot in between. Albeit, this is different than a panic stop when you hit the binders and let ABS do its thing. Maybe if you dumped the phatties for some snow tires and went out to a snow covered parking lot and practiced a bit - who knows.



Oh well, to each his own. PS: watch out I'm coming down the road.

 

[jchapin]

WARNING: Even MORE dangerous on frost heaves

My first introduction to the dangers of ABS braking happened while slowing on a steep downhill pitch into a 4-way busy intersection on the bottom. Being typical New England roads, there was a succession of frost heaves at the braking zone. With nothing in my bed, the rear hopped on the frost heaves..... as soon as the wheels left the ground the sensors are tricked into believing you're in a skid and decide to relinquish braking until wheels start to spin again... . I essentially had no brakes, so truck maintained speed and continued to hop as I plowed through the intersection... . luckily the drivers had piece of mind and came to a screeching stop at my doors, anouncing thier frustrations with loud horns... (prolly assummed I was asleep at wheel or sumpin'). I was going for emergency brake at time but once I got my foot on it the coast was clear so I moved on (well, until the next turnaround because I originally had intended to turn right).



The next morning I showed up at dealer: "I want these ABS brakes disconnected"... "but sir, why? You just need to learn how to NOT pump brakes", "I said disengage them and I'll pay you whatever it takes, no discussion"



They did it for free after I told them what happened. I've been trained how to threshold brake with race cars and have learned how to do it in truck so no more ABS for me, thank you. There is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent above from happening, so I'm better off.

 

[ChrisOlson]

I am going to chime in here I live in Alaska the land of the black ice My last chevy 4x4 had ABS and my wifes 2000 durango has ABS we are looking at a new jeep liberty the only ones in the dealer lot do not have ABS, we Are ordering a new one with ABS in an informal poll of 5 women in her office who have ABS on there vehicles all of them say they they would not have a vehicle without it I personally found the ABS on the Durango very helpfull just my thoughts



have a great day

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Okay, a couple more common sense suggestions.



Don't be driving so freak'n fast that if you hit a bump you rear end leaves the ground. This ain't T-Rex baja time of the year, so adjust accordingly. :-laf Or for those in Rio Linde - slow down.



Most of us snow country folks are accustomed to putting substantial additional weight in the rear of the truck for the winter time.



Bottomline seems to be under the vast majority of situations ABS is superior stopping and steering if used properly. For the few-and-far-between circumstances where non-ABS would be better... well stuff happens. Oh, did I mention, to each his own. Drive on.

 

[6 2 Carl]

Quote:

"If you hit a couple little bumps while it's on, it'll fully release and it takes way too long to re-engage. "



I have experienced this several times on rough gravel roads, it really doesn't inspire a lot of confidence about the stopping ability of my truck.



Quote:

"If you rely on ABS for anything in the winter I hope you stay the hell away from me"



After the first snowfall of the year I always go out and test my truck (on a empty road of course). I purposely put my truck into a skid and try to regain control. I also do several panic stops as well. By learning were my limits are and how my truck responds at the limit, I will control my truck much better in an emergency situation.



Quote:



"Perhaps its operator problems? I've learned to "squeeze" the brakes under slick conditions. To me this means easing down on the ABS to the just before the skid point, or backing off slightly if the ABS kicks in. In essence seeking that sweet spot in between. "



I tried threshold braking several times as well, and it works until a tire locks up, then the abs kicks in and releases the brakes for a second, lengthening the stopping distance. The "sweet spot in between" would be much easier to find if the abs didn't keep kicking in.



If you still have to threshold brake with abs doesn't that defeat the purpose of abs? I was always told to press the brake as hard as possible and let the abs do the work, but as I found out the abs doesn't slow down my truck at all on ice when I do that.



Quote:

"Bottomline seems to be under the vast majority of situations ABS is superior stopping and steering if used properly. For the few-and-far-between circumstances where non-ABS would be better... well stuff happens. Oh, did I mention, to each his own. "



I have not had one situation were the abs has saved my ass, instead I have already had several situations that the abs could have potentially gotten me in trouble.





Quote:

"Guess its just too bad the R&D engineers in the automotive industry didn't consult with you guys before they wasted all that time, energy, and money conjuring up ABS braking systems... deep sigh.



Psst, please don't let this get out to the insurance companies. I get a discount for four wheel ABS. If they knew the REAL story I probably would get penalized. Those dupes. "



Who decided that we need abs on our trucks? I have never owned a vehicle with abs brakes, and I have always been able to stop in all types of weather. I cringe when something as important as brakes can be controlled by a computer. The abs system can't be programmed for maximum braking performance in all types of road conditions. There has to be some compromises. And that could make all the difference in an emergency situation.



Carl

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Quote:

"I tried threshold braking several times as well, and it works until a tire locks up, then the abs kicks in and releases the brakes for a second, lengthening the stopping distance. "



Same thing typically happens without ABS, i. e. the wheels lock up, you go into a slide, and therefore the operator releases the brakes (or panics and keeps on sliding out of control), and then manually pumps the brakes.



Quote:

"If you still have to threshold brake with abs doesn't that defeat the purpose of abs? I was always told to press the brake as hard as possible and let the abs do the work, but as I found out the abs doesn't slow down my truck at all on ice when I do that. "



In my limited understanding, having a much better handle on how to stop a recalcitrant mule, the idea behind ABS is twofold. On dry pavement panic stops it enables the operator to maintain control of the vehicle. On slick roads it simulates the old school pump the brakes, except more efficiently since the computer/brakes can react quicker then the operator. It also prevents the operator from panicking, locking up the brakes, and sliding out of control in slick situations.



Quote:

"I was always told to press the brake as hard as possible and let the abs do the work. . "



Yes, and no. depends on the circumstances. A panic stop for the little kid, or small puppy, dashing out in front on a dry road - dynamite the suckers. (This may not count for house cats, lions, or wolves depending on your perspective). For icy conditions you will need to take the time to learn how to squeeze or theshold brake. Alternately, you may exercise your purchasing power and buy a non-ABS rig or have it disabled.



Quote:

"I have not had one situation were the abs has saved my ***,"



Maybe not my *** yet, but my rig yes. I've had a face off with a quickly approaching fence (my mess up not realizing it was as slick as it was) and several elk and deer standing in the middle of where I wished they weren't. Made me a believer. Otherwise I wouldn't be spending the time expressing my opinion on a topic I am far from being a qualified expert.



Quote:

"Who decided that we need abs on our trucks?"



I maintain that the engineering and testing that has occurred over the last decade of ABS has confirmed to the automotive and insurance folks that ABS is worthwhile. If it wasn't the lawsuits and expense would have forced them to can it long ago. The option still exists to have the ABS disabled or purchase a rig without.



Next topic: That crazy power steering. Durn confound modern doodaws anyway. :-laf

 

[Yo Hoot]

Guess its just too bad the R&D engineers in the automotive industry didn't consult with you guys before they wasted all that time, energy, and money conjuring up ABS braking systems... deep sigh.

:-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[fox]

I believe there is a large difference between models of Dodge trucks as far as ABS goes.

My Y2K 4X2 was a death trap. A 30 mph panic stop would take 2 X the distance to stop with it than without it.

My 02 4X4 is not real bad but I still don't like it.

The truck will get bent because of it.

If it was not enabled until say, 35mph, then I could see the purpose.

You guys that are having fun with us would feel the same if you drove that Y2K truck.