ABS is dangerous on icy roads

[SilverFox]

Before this thread gets buried and forgotten I'd like to say for the record that I do think ABS is good in most vehicles. My other Damiler-Chrysler product has ABS coupled with Continental high performance H rated tires and huge brakes. The ABS works just fine on that car and in over 15000 miles I have never doubted that it would stop in a very short distance. When I'm behind the wheel of that car I only worry about the guy behind me being able to stop, never about my stopping ability.



Fox mentioned that maybe the ABS should deactivate below about 35 MPH. That reminded me when ABS first became available on commercial aircraft in the late fifties, the procedure was to turn it off below 50 knots. All taxing was done with Anti-skid off and was only turned on after the airplane was lined up on the runway for take off and was turned off again before the plane departed the runway after landing. Now, on the present generation of airplanes, it's left on all the time.

 

[CJEliassen]

I do not like these ABS systems. I was going doing a hill with snow and began to brake when all of a sudden the ABS engaged and I started sliding faster. On my old truck, I simply needed to let up a little to get the wheel rolling. On this one, the ABS does not disengage until you completely disengage the brake AND then it doesn't disengage for about a second afterwards! Holy crap, what a stupid system. I almost when off the road at the T and hit a tree. I am going to disengage the system ASAP as it is a very dangerous system. I would have been able to simple maintain a constant rolling friction and turn the corner, but the ABS prevented this.



Despite popular belief, a proficient driver maintaining a constant rolling friction will stop in a short distance than ABS. ABS is designed for the people that can't "feel" the road or know if they are locked up or not. It was originally designed for use on aircraft where the pilot is a hundred feet or more in front of the main wheels and has no way to "feel" the condition the brakes and wheels are in.

 

[SilverFox]

CJEliassen,



IMO you are 100% correct about the ABS brakes. But I won't disconnect mine because of the liability issue. This issue may or may not be true but if you had an accident and someone found out that the ABS had been disconnected, it could make a difference in the out come of a lawsuit. And I agree that you are more likely to have an accident with this ABS engaged.

 

[EEdmondson]

PLEASE!!! Anyone who has had a bad experience with their ABS, please report it to the NHTSA. This sounds like the start of a safety recall that could save lives. We don't want to lose any TDR members, do we?

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/hotline/

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

 

[jsimpson]

Ol Trail Dog said it better than I ever could! Slow down and quit trusting ABS to get you out of trouble you never should have been in!

 

[SilverFox]

EEdmondson'



Thanks for the web sites. For what it's worth, I made my feelings know.

 

[CRuth]

I haven't had a chance to test mine on ice yet, but I keep thinking of the people I know who won't wear seat belts "because I don't want to get trapped in the vehicle".

 

[Deezal Man]

Funny you should ask

While I am no expert, I have thoroughly tested the functions of ABS in various vehicles. Unfortunately a 3rd Gen Dodge has not made it on that list, but I think that is "somewhat" irrelevant. . I will explain the "somewhat" later in my story.



My testing was done mostly on purpose and some accidental. I am here to tell you that your "thought" of being able to stop quicker is mearly an illusion and one I also had. I can only recommend for you to play with it and prove to yourself. After all, talk is cheap. .



Disable the ABS if you can and see if you can actually stop quicker. I'm betting you can't. Oh, and check your lines. . I can guarantee you cannot stop straigher without ABS. While that might not seem all that important at first thought. . it will become so when you are along side a 3' deep drainage ditch or embankment.



I used a big empty snow covered parking lot as my test bed. Naturally you should use cones to mark your test areas. So that you don't prematurely hit the brakes and foul up your test.



As for myself, I proved this in my old 90' Acura integra. It was easy to disable the ABS on that car. I'm not sure how to do it on a 3rd Gen Dodge.



Long story short, I regret not spending the extra cash on my 98. 5 to get 4 wheel ABS instead of just rear. I've had a few times where the front end really got loose on me and could have resulted in a bad situation. ABS prevents 95% of that.



Oh, and some people are under the illusion that ABS provides some magical braking effect. In reality, ABS can only work as well as the grip of the tires and the available friction of the contact surface.



(I said I would explain the "somewhat"). 4wd and locking diffs adversely affect ABS's ability to work properly. ABS requires independent control of each wheel. In theory, this condition locks three of the four wheels via drivetrain. So I am somewhat unsure of how the two systems interact with each other. I suspect they end up fighting each other to some degree. This is where AWD is better because each wheel is somewhat independent due to the transfercase clutches.



BTW, Traction control is basically ABS used in reverse. . and YES that is something our TRUCKS SHOULD have. . because they would then be almost unstoppable. I simply cannot believe how incredible that feature has been in my wife's car.

 

[RustyJC]

My wife's 2000 Durango SLT+ has just about every option available - except ABS. She bought it off the lot and just had to have that one!



I won't drive the thing in the rain (a pretty common occurrence here on the Texas Gulf Coast), and I cringe at the thought of her out on the Houston freeways in the thing. My 1996 dually had rear wheel ABS (not worth much!) - the 2002 has 4 wheel ABS, as does my 2003 Acura 3. 2 TL-S. I guarantee you - my wife's next vehicle will have 4 wheel ABS as well!!



(And, yes, I know about snow and ice - we lived in central Ohio for 22 years!)



Rusty

 

[CJEliassen]

To all of you who think you know the situtaiton, I suggest you shut up and keep your comments to yourself.



I was doing about 10 miles per hour down a hill I had gone down several times earlier and later. This was the only time the ABS kicked on and they would not turn off. And yes, I can stop in a short distance than ABS. I have done tests myself. So, ABS is for people who can't drive. Not for proficient drivers. ABS isn't going to get you out of trouble, but it may get proficient drivers into trouble. So, Olddog, Deezal Man, and Jsimpson. If you want to come out to Colorado and learn to become a proficient driver, let me know.



From Transport Canada:



Is the stopping distance shorter with ABS?



No! From early commercials, it may have looked like you could stop on a dime. That instantaneous stop is not realistic. When braking on dry or wet roads your stopping distance will be about the same as with conventional brakes.



You should allow for a longer stopping distance with ABS than for conventional brakes when driving on gravel, slush, and snow. This is because the rotating tire will stay on top of this low traction road surface covering, and effectively "float" on this boundary layer.



A non ABS braked vehicle can lock its tires and create a snow plow effect in front of the tires which helps slow the vehicle. These locked tires can often find more traction below this boundary layer.



http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/tp/tp13082/abs2_e.htm

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I have done ABS/non-ABS tests a number of times and specifically bought a 98. 5 with rear wheel only ABS because of it. My last truck was a 94 GMC Sonoma with 4w ABS and I never did like how the ABS acted - a number of times I almost blew threw stop signs because if there were ripples in the pavement just before the stop the tires would momentarily lock and the ABS would release the brakes and the truck would coast before reapplying them whereas without it the tires would have just chirped. After rear ending a car that I am 100% sure that I would have stopped in time (I was stopping hard right at the threshold when I went over it momentarily about 15 feet from the back of her car and the ABS released the brakes) I decided to figure out how to disable it and do some tests. I ended up wiring in a switch to turn it on or off because the cruise control worked off of the same fuse so I would turn it on if I wanted to use cruise. This made it easy for me to test it on or off in varied conditions. In ALL conditions I was able to beat the ABS brakes. Anywhere from 10%-50% depending on conditions.



Now on the other hand I have driven cars with excellent ABS systems - the Corvette for example. There's absolutely no way that I could beat those brakes - they brake so hard and the ABS reacts so fast that I don't think anyone could. Not all ABS systems are created equally and thus far I have yet to find a truck that had ABS brakes that I liked.



Now I used to roadrace motorcycles and spent some time on tracks in cars as well (earned my scca competition license) so I am very familiar with braking at the threshold. IMO, if instead of spending the money we do putting systems into cars to make them "smarter" and spent that on REAL driver training to make the drivers smarter we'd have a MUCH bigger improvement in safety. I think that all drivers should be required to take a performance driving school so that they could learn the skills they'll need in emergency or poor road conditions. Instead our current system teaches people to drive when the conditions are perfect and they are "told" what to do if certain things happen - and when those things happen MOST people just lock up.

 

[RustyJC]

To all of you who think you know the situtaiton, I suggest you shut up and keep your comments to yourself.

And you have a nice day as well!



Rusty

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

CJ

In summary the ABS does as well on dry and wet. A little longer on ice or snow pack according to your link. So if we add the steering in a straight line there are definate advantages to ABS. Thanks for the offer for schooling but since I've always lived in snow conditions (MT and WY) I will pass.



I actually had a ABS experience last night in BZ on snow/ice. Candidly, it did seem to take longer to stop (a non-ABS experiment not being a possibility). I purposely keep the pedal down just to see how long. However, the stop was in a straight line and in my lane I will acknowledge some ABS systems may be better than others. However, for you city slicks and flatlanders from CO, I'm glad your trucks come with ABS. :-{}



Now how about some substantive information on how to toggle the ABS for those who prefer the non-ABS approach.

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Okay, I take it back.

 

[SilverFox]

Those who have had actual experience with the Dodge ABS really should go to the web site mentioned earlier by EEdmondson and fill out the report. It won't take over 10 minutes and if you make a wrong selection on the form, along the way, just go ahead and finish and you will have a chance to correct it at the end. The ABS on my ’99 Ford PS wasn’t very good but it was better than my Dodge. I’ll say it again; I love my Dodge and wouldn’t trade it for a brand new Ford.

 

[CJEliassen]

CJ

However, for you city slicks and flatlanders from CO, I'm glad your trucks come with ABS. :-{}

Spoken like a true know it all Old Dog. FYI, I live at 9,000 feet and I drive 60 minutes to work with a 3,500 feet total change in elevation. Sounds like you need some geography lessons at the very least.

 

[EBottema]

4wheel ABS is the most worthless thing you can have on a truck/car in my opinion.

I do feel the ABS unit that most 2nd gens have (rear only) do work well. It is a small trouble free unit that compliments the brake system since they normally is no weight in the rear of our trucks so it keeps the truck from sliding.

It seems from all the 4 wheel ABS cars I have been in offer a soft and worthless brake pedel. My dad got in an accident with his 96 Yukon and he stepped on the brakes in rush hour traffic and the thing would not stop, why? ABS didn't allow all that pressure to each of the brakes.

The whole ABS unit is expensive to replace and overcomplicates the engine comp and the brake system. I feel it is not needed...



Erik

 

[amsoilman]

4wheel ABS is the most worthless thing you can have on a truck/car in my opinion.

I do feel the ABS unit that most 2nd gens have (rear only) do work well. It is a small trouble free unit that compliments the brake system since they normally is no weight in the rear of our trucks so it keeps the truck from sliding.

It seems from all the 4 wheel ABS cars I have been in offer a soft and worthless brake pedel. My dad got in an accident with his 96 Yukon and he stepped on the brakes in rush hour traffic and the thing would not stop, why? ABS didn't allow all that pressure to each of the brakes.

The whole ABS unit is expensive to replace and overcomplicates the engine comp and the brake system. I feel it is not needed...



Erik

Even the "Bluebird" School Bus (5. 9L Powered) I drive every day has all wheel ABS, and it saved my butt one day! Very glad I had it!



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[DIESELMAN]

Short Rant... ...



ABS or Not, there is no excuse, none, for rear ending another vehicle or blowing a Stop Sign, only stupidity is to blame, not your brakes. Idiots who can't control themselves or their vehicles are why we have ABS today.



Sept 25, 1982 I was rear ended by an idiot with an excuse, 20 years later, and $192. 00 garnished dollars per week later, this idiot is still paying me, and will be for five more years.



ABS has its weaknesses, deal with it, Slow Down and get off my *****, I have ABS and a Lawyer and another kid ready for college, inflation you know.



DM

 

[CJEliassen]

Another person who thinks they have experienced everything and know the situtation.



I have a perfect driving record, and ABS almost changed that. So, until you know everything, stop with the freaking comments people.