ABS is dangerous on icy roads

[RottnDogue]

I have to say while waiting, and waiting, and aiting ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... for my truck to arrive I have been renting trucks. I know they are not the Heavy Duty trucks we are talking about. I know they weigh much less. But for comparison purposes, I bring them back when they get dirty. About every 2½ - 4 weeks and I have been in the Ford, Chevy, and Dodge.

OK being a rental and waiting on a $50k truck I figure this is my last chance for a while to be immature so I have tried all the braking systems. I have to say Dodge's ABS compared to the Chevy's Stinks. Not even close. I had ABS in my old truck (rear only), and it stunk. So in my opinion some ABS systems work better than others, some work pretty well actually. The Dodge's is not one of those. Oh yeah I have been renting for almost 2 years (another story) so I have been in a lot of new vehicles in that time.



Darren

 

[DarcyWood]

I have read a lot of opinions on this thread and I am not in one bit trying to argue with anyone. But I may be able to add some ideas I believe are correct and may help to shed some light on the situation. Please bear with the length.



1. There are two types of friction; sliding and static. Sliding friction is the friction between two surfaces once they have started sliding on one another. Static friction is the friction between two surfaces that are not sliding and is usually much stronger than sliding friction. A good analogy is when you are young and a bigger kid made you pull them on a toboggan. It is really hard to start moving them because you must overcome the static friction. As well, you must also supply a little more force to accelerate the unmoving mass, but it can be applied over a long period so it may be minimal. However, once you get them moving, it is much easier to keep them moving because to only have to overcome sliding friction.



2. When the wheels are sliding on a surface such as ice, all there is is sliding friction to provide some traction, although it is not exactly traction. You have to let off the brakes long enough for the wheel to gain enough rotational speed to regain traction. Heavier wheels (big tires especially - I've done that), heavy axles, etc. make this more difficult. They all have inertia when stopped and do not "want" to spin. Once the wheels finally regain their rotational speed, you are back to the superior static friction (no slippage).



3. If you are on ice, you can indeed stop fastest if you ease into the brakes and prevent wheel slippage. There is no arguement here, ABS or no ABS (not from me, at least). The ABS system will not have kicked in yet.



4. Once the wheels start to slide, you are in trouble. Physics explains friction well. You must work to regain traction. I cannot tell the instant one tire breaks loose, but once it does, the three remaining tires are trying to do the work of four and they are likely to let go very soon. The ABS system can tell that one tire has broken loose and braking pressure must be reduced to it and does so far quicker than we can, perhaps before the other three go too. (ABS reacts quicker - always)



5. Whether we let off the brakes or the ABS does so for us, it will take the same amount of time before that slipping wheel(s) is brought back up to speed and we can reapply pressure. The ABS can probably sense the speed of the wheel a little quicker than we can and reapply quicker. (I know GM systems can read a 1 mph difference in the front wheels going around a corner at 45 mph, I watched a SnapOn diagnostic testor for a mechanic on a test drive. )



6. Once traction is regained, we or the ABS start the braking cycle again and hopefully do better.



Consider these two points though:



1. ABS helps to prevent (not perfectly though) loss of directional control. A very hard stomp on the brakes with ABS can result in a loss of steering control. But in 5 vehicles with 4 wheel ABS, I've never had this happen yet.



2. ABS only kicks in when at least one wheel has lost at least partial traction (but this means we've already lost the stronger static friction and are now relying on sliding friction). Sorry, but that means that we have overdriven the road conditions (ice, bumps, potholes, whatever) and have only ourselves to blame.



In a Jeep GC, Chevy K1500, GMC K1500, Honda Accord, and this 2004. 5 Dodge 3500, the ABS systems have all seemed to do remarkably similar jobs. Remember that with our tire and axle weights it is harder to get the wheels turning again, ABS or not.



My suggestions are to spend a little money getting some good tires (cheap compared to our trucks), slow down a bit, and slow down some more. I've been on ice, snow, and freezing rain for the last three months (we've had a bad fall in northern Alberta) and I have had the ABS come on a number of times to remind me of my own misjudgements.



Again, sorry for the length. No insults intended anywhere in what I have posted. And I really hope I have added some positive ideas. I know I read TDR for a few years before we bought our CTD because there are a lot of good ideas and I hope I can continue the trend.

 

[JPM]

Dieselman,quote..... As a matter of Fact, Most People Drive in 4WD on icy roads when they should be in 2WD,.....





I disagree, my wife cannot even drive my truck in 2WD in icy/rainy conditions. (I'm the speed demon,she's not !)Its all over the road, with the LS rear axle and modern diesel torque its too much for the tires to take.

So is it (ABS) a tire issue maybe? Different tires made a huge difference on my ole rear ABS equiped '91. I slid through intersections until I changed tires, in 1993. Maybe we should take a poll? It seems my brakes work nice on my 2003.

 

[amsoilman]

DarcyWood,

You have contributed a very fine definition and explaination of how the ABS systems work! Thanks.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

" Sorry, but that means that we have overdriven the road conditions (ice, bumps, potholes, whatever) and have only ourselves to blame. "



THAT is the crux of this issue! ^^^^^^^^^



It is misleading, or outright WRONG, because it suggests that a driver with ABS MUST and SHOULD assume that EVERY stop they make *might* involve an unexpected/unseen piece of gravel or wet leaf, and therefore MUST timidly and with great caution approach each and every stop with white-knuckle fear!



Otherwise, what SHOULD (and WOULD BE, with NORMAL braking!) be a routine stop just MIGHT leave them with only partial braking as one or more wheels are now non-functional, even as the rearend of the vehicle in front of them looms steadily closer - of course, they COULD lift off the brakes, and lose what little brakes they DO have in hopes they will regain effectiveness of the lost brakes in time - but sure doesn't SEEM the right choice when that car ahead is now only a few feet in front of you - and it SURE wouldn't look good on an accident report that there was clear evidence that they had abandoned any attempt at stopping their vehicle just before impact!



We shouldn't HAVE to constantly assume we will lose half or more of our braking at EVERY stop to be a "proper" and "careful" driver!



There's MORE to effective use and application of ABS brakes than the mere ability to continue in a straight line in poor traction circumstances - unless you somehow cherish the ability to hit the guy in front of you SQUARELY instead of at an angle!



"Well gee officer, sure, I hit the guy when I lost partial braking and was unable to stop in time, but look at how neatly and SQUARELY I did it... "

 

[BHolm]

Well Gary and CJ, If you guys are so convinced that the ABS in these trucks is no good, just friggen unplug it and get on with your lives. Why is there any continued discussion at all? There are clearly two camps here, those who think the ABS is no good and those of us who think it is just fine. It is pretty obvious that nobody is changing any minds on this.



Exaggerate all you want... . "We shouldn't HAVE to constantly assume we will lose half or more of our braking at EVERY stop to be a "proper" and "careful" driver! " I firmly believe that either it was a tire choice issue or simple drivers error.



One question that hasn't been asked of CJ is whether or not the trucks computer has been updated for the larger tires fitted? If not, that is a big part of the problem. The ABS computer is getting bad info from the wheel speed sensors. Just another possibility, other than... the system is "dangerous" HA!

 

[WyattEarp]

no abs, not good.

I agree with some, different areas of the country require different driving habits and technique, i know with my truck when the front brake pads needed replacing the abs let me know due to there being space in the brake lines from the calipers being extended out further due to low pads, on dry pavement i had no control at 30mph the rear wanted to meet the front end i can only imagine what a wet road would have proved, ie the 30mph was a test i did after realizing i had no abs, i thought something had went astray with my braking system other than the abs.

We have roads here where i live which 18 wheel trucks are forbidden to be on and i do live in the Mountains and during winter i have had no trouble with the abs on the truck, also i learned when i first got my license about driving with a rear wheel drive car in snow, pple say front wheel drive is the way to go i disagree but thats a whole other scenario. You basically have to drive at a snail pace and thats how you get home safely, stay off the brakes as much as possible and usually depending on the road and weather condition im usually in 4wd, OD- off and in 1st gear, maybe slow getting home but i do get home.

As for the tires the factory 265's that came with my truck they helped toss me into a creek with the help of about 2 inches of sleet, its wasn't frozen just slushy and i was using the above driving habit as always, so those tires got tossed quickly and went to a taller, more narrow tire and haven't had any trouble sense, but this is just my 2 cents for what its worth, maybe it might help someone out this winter.

We finally getting our first taste of winter today, snow flurries off and on all day, its right around the corner :-laf

 

[WyattEarp]

sorry i misread the post

I see know your talking about ice, to be honest i won't drive when its like that or at least give the road crews some time to throw sand or something down to help with traction, but i also can't remember having any trouble with my abs on ice other than the fact that with the torq our trucks make at even the stock level sometimes it goes against us in those situations. I do apologize for misreading the post, sorry fellas, forgive me if you can :-laf

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

No need for upset here, OR insult - I for one, have had NO problems or complaints with the ABS in my '02 - but the '91 was a different story - SAME driver, DIFFERENT truck!



My primary complaint is those who insist those of us experiencing problems or dissatisfaction with ABS must not know how to drive, or don't understand how to properly use ABS, and THAT is nonsense!



Like I said, *I* have had 2 DIFFERENT trucks with ABS - the old one stunk as far as the ABS was concerned, the current one is fine - and I merely suggest some posters here recognize the faint possibility there just MIGHT be other factors involved OTHER than lousy drivers!



I sincerely hope EVERYONE here is enjoying a happy THanksgiving - CHEERS!

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

Thanks Darcy for the substantive contribution.



The common theme remains the ABS system could use improvement. Okay, how to improve it? What makes the ABS in the vehicles where opinion holds it is a better system? If Marco and others can reprogram a ECM what does it take to improve the "brains" in the ABS? What would it take to toggle the ABS off in situations where is less desirable, e. g. icy?



Hope you are enjoying your Thanksgiving.

 

[BHolm]

Gary, Off of the offensive here I don't think it is such a stretch to assume that many drivers don't always know what they are doing. Not having ridden with any of you guys obviously makes that an impossible judgement. EVERYBODY thinks they are a good driver, we all take pride in that. At the risk of being called a "know it all" again, I have had substantial extra drivers training. I also used to think I was the best driver in the world :-laf After training for a class A CDL my eyes were opened a little more. After four years of professional instruction on racetracks I really started to realize how little I actually knew about car control. A long weekend at a winter car control clinic with pro instruction really helped cement my opinions on ABS in the winter. The week long clinic in Moab with the guy who teaches our special forces to drive off road taught me more yet. Point is, there is a whole lot more to driving than the crappy drivers training in high school and 20 years "experience" can teach you. So, it is my opinion that the vast majority on the road are really under trained for the task at hand ie; there are a lot of "bad" drivers.



Some reprograming on the system is a possibility. I do think it was mentioned earlier that the large heavy wheels and tires on a truck have an effect on the responsiveness of the system. Once they lock, getting them rolling again, especially on ice, is going to take that extra second or so.



I bet with a little poking around you could fit an ABS defeat switch. One of my Mercedes G-wagens has that switch. It is desinged for when you are on a loose road surface like gravel, or in deep snow. Just find the circuit and wire in a dash mounted switch. That would be the perfect solution as long as you are willing to deal with the liabilities if there were an accident. Of course, nobody would likely know unless you told them anyway.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"EVERYBODY thinks they are a good driver, we all take pride in that. "



Undoubtedly true - I've run into that myself on auto related boards quite a few times - the teens and younger generations seem most likely to assume they are great drivers, amd possess immortality...



Not that us "old coots" are immune, either!



BUT, that said, ABS was designed PRECISELY as a tool to bridge the gap of poor judgement and/or ability in less than ideal conditions, and PROPERLY designed and functioning, SHOULD be an improvement in those circcumstances, NOT an additional handicap!



A perfect example encountered with my '91 truck, was a downhill rural road that came to a stopsign. That road had developed a significant washboard surface from constant vehicle braking for the stopsign during warm weather - and was sometimes further compromised when sand or gravel was on the surface - not uncommon in rural areas.



I had several "close encounters of the unwelcome kind" when what started as a normal stop INSTANTLY became a panic situation as the washboard surface, perhaps mixed with sand/gravel, caused a rear wheel to lift and engage the rear ABS... THIS immediately COMPLETELY removed ALL braking from the reat axle, and left only the front discs to bring the truck to a halt - and believe me, when that occurs unexpectedly as you are already nearly upon the vehicle already stopped ahead of you, it sweat time!



And once rear braking was turned off by ABS, I *never* observed it to return on it's own until I completely let up on the brake pedal - and I had that same thing happen on long downgrades where there was PLENTY of time for normal braking to return if it was ever going to!



Naturally, I came to anticipate that stretch of road and take extra precautions - but we can't ALWAYS be in familiar driving territory, nor is it reasonable to be forced into constantly taking that level of precaution due to an ABS system that CREATES problems, instead of countering them as it is supposedly designed to!



I eventually disabled the ABS on that truck, and that area and others like it, were never again a problem! NOR has that effect EVER been noted on my '02 truck on that same road...

 

[BHolm]

Prior to this, I have not made any statements relating directly to the Dodge truck. Today however, we had about a foot of new snow. Naturally I had to use the new truck when running errands today. I tried the brakes on snow covered gravel, snow covered pavement, heavily compacted snow very near glare ice. I also tried most of these places in 2 and 4wd. I guess I don't find anything wrong with the system on MY truck. It works as it should, the lengthening of stopping distances seems minimal, as it should be with a good ABS system. I dunno? I sure am glad it is on my truck

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

One positive out of this thread. After doing some internet searching I took the inititive, and flaming arrows , while my family was together in Billings for Thanksgiving to recite the statistics about fatalities and ABS.



Bottomline appears to be knowing what the ABS brakes feel like, what to expect, how to use the different types, what ABS can and cannot do, and practice in a safe area to get the feel before you really need them.

 

[jchapin]

Short Rant... ...



ABS or Not, there is no excuse, none, for rear ending another vehicle or blowing a Stop Sign, only stupidity is to blame, not your brakes. Idiots who can't control themselves or their vehicles are why we have ABS today.



Sept 25, 1982 I was rear ended by an idiot with an excuse, 20 years later, and $192. 00 garnished dollars per week later, this idiot is still paying me, and will be for five more years.



ABS has its weaknesses, deal with it, Slow Down and get off my *****, I have ABS and a Lawyer and another kid ready for college, inflation you know.

DM

I was just reading through these posts and came upon this. Do you mean to say that you understand everybody's situation so well that you're able to draw this absolute proof? Man, you must live in another dimension, able to see each and every accident and fully understand the dynamics. I don't know you but your post is extremelly ignorant, I only hope that in real life you are not, and the man paying you was for something extremelly unkind or inexcusable, not a simple mistake, as like the rest of us, you also make from time to time.



Computer aided braking is a support mechanism, there to help when it's appropriate, but not an end-all solution in all situations. Not everybody has the desire to be a competent driver and ABS really helps those with limited skills. In fact, I would not recommend to anybody that they disengage ABS unless I'm sure they fully understand threshold braking and can react with calm precision.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Please avoid personal attacks and name calling guys - there's no need. Just stick to the facts of your arguments or positions and leave that stuff out.



-Steve St. Laurent

Lead Moderator

 

[DIESELMAN]

Steve - I have thick skin, in my 40++ years, Ive seen and trounced many idiots, I saw the post before you edited, no big deal.



JChapin - The man paying me, no excuse, absent minded, rear ended me, no insurance either, hence the judgement, I WAS THE NICE ONE, allowed him 25 years to make good, other choice for him was prison.



I am stating a justified opinion, if you strike another vehicle, you are not in control of yours, unless some other unforseen action caused it. If you spin in the snow, and yes I have many times, you are going too fast, braking too hard, steering while braking excessively, whatever, just not in complete control. If you drive this way normally, on the edge that is, you deserve the consequences of your actions.



I was out in my 04. 5 this weekend, and tested the ABS very well, IT IS BETTER than my early '03, and it works well..... in 2WD, it is worthless in 4WD. The pulse rate is very high, the rear end could not be locked on a smooth snow covered road at 40 MPH panic stop, it stopped very short, and very, very straight, steering was never lost. On a stutter bump gravel road with some snow and ice, I could lock the axles up, front and rear, and the ABS didn't respond, when it did, the stops were predictable and straight, pumping the brakes when the rear was grabby and under ABS influence, drastically lengthens the stop and has the rear jumping all over the place.



I did 15 + stops like this, best results every time were pedal to the floor until stopped, every time. Pumping the brakes will lock the wheels and cause the rear end to come around, very fast once.



In 4WD, and I only did this on the road which was smooth and snow/ice covered, the front axle interacts through the transfercase/drivelines and resulted in very erratic response, I also have LS rear and this may compound the problem. If the rear locks, then the ABS rates drastically increase the stopping distance, and braking over a cattle guard at 35MPH causes the front to lock, and buzzes the pedal, ABS, but it is slippery enough to turn sideways 20 degrees or more.



I do agree that there needs to be a way to disable the ABS for offroad use though. The 03 can be terrifying on a steep downhill with snow, the ABS just pulses the brakes but it is just not enough to stop the truck, but I know and expect this behavior, I just don't like it. Taking the same hill under about 5MPH, the ABS never trips, and I can slide down the hill, under my control, but if the speed exceeds 5 MPH, the ABS will kick in every time.



As for desire to be competent, you mean certain people are incompetent, and choose to go through life that way, THATS why there is ABS and LAWYERS.

 

[TBrennan]

Just to add my two cents.



I had the case this evening where I was traveling at 60 mph and someone in front of me decided to turn without signaling. I was following a little too close for the speed we were traveling (my fault I know) but after getting fairly hard on the brakes the ABS allowed me to swerve around the stopping vehicle without further incident.



The brakes on these new HD Rams are awesome compared to most trucks I have driven. I can stop this truck much better than I could my '96 half ton. As far as ABS goes, I think it helps more than it hurts. Kind of like air bags, they may injure or even kill a few people in certain novell situations but save far more than they injure.

 

[Pawpaw]

I am stating a justified opinion, if you strike another vehicle, you are not in control of yours, unless some other unforseen action caused it. If you spin in the snow, and yes I have many times, you are going too fast, braking too hard, steering while braking excessively, whatever, just not in complete control. If you drive this way normally, on the edge that is, you deserve the consequences of your actions.

That "unforseen action" is where the rub comes in. In my accident (which I posted earlier), I WAS being cautious. I WAS driving slow. I WAS braking gently, with what should have been way more than enough room to stop. If I had been driving like one of the "idiots" you describe, I would've wiped out several vehicles.

I've been driving for 40 years and never, repeat NEVER, struck another vehicle (or any other object) until that day. There was no valid reason my ABS should've kicked in, but there it was. A wet asphault road is a long way from ice but for me, that day, there was no difference.

My wife would've been the first one to jump my case, had I been driving too fast or in any way unsafe -- ESPECIALLY with two grandchildren in the truck. This day, she looked at me and calmly asked, "How did that happen?"

I do not intend to condemn ABS in general, and I'm not ready to condemn it in the 3rd Gen Rams, either. I am simply left dumbfounded by what happened that day. Maybe my ABS malfunctioned. I suspect I'll never know.

No flames here, just my personal experience and maybe a little hurt pride over your somewhat over-generalized comments. For what it's worth, I would probably have agreed with you... three months ago.

Bob