ALPS (another lift pump story)

[David_VT]

ALPS (&field fix for no fuel after filter chg)

UPDATE: see further down the thread after you read this posting for my temporary field fix to no fuel after filter change. .



==========================================

ALPS= another lift pump story

Who knows how to cheat around a bad lift pump so I can prime my system and keep running... . (my answer, see below)

=============================the story... =====



Well,

Finally got off my tail and decided to spend a few minutes on this hot day in Vermont to change my fuel filter... ... .



hmm, first hint of trouble. . all that debris in the bottom of the filter canister. . brass looking stuff don't you know...



pay no attention, was running before the filter change, so must run afterwards, right.....



... cleaned out the canister and carefully replaced the filter... .



primed the system several times (as when I replaced injectors and those nice new bayonet fittings), as in the past and expected to be off on our next errand in a few minutes... .



That was several hours ago



Now that I've done some research in the TDR archives, I realize that my lift pump is toast and that debris in the filter was likely the last gasp of the lift pump...



So, here it is saturday afternoon in Northern Vermont. Guess I will be driving the old 'burban until monday afternoon unless someone knows how to cheat around a bad lift pump so I can keep running.



David

 

[MikeR]

Running two pumps at once,you really can't cheat through a dead pump. If you look at how the vanes work,they move in and out like sliding doors,anything flowing past can pull the 'door' shut closing off circuation. I tried this testing a pump off the truck.

 

[David_VT]

I primed from above....

Well, stuck with no pump source on a saturday afternoon, I did the following... .



First I found a local guy with a used but working electric pump with an internal regulator (shuts off at 7psi)



He gave me tubing, fittings for the pump, etc



I found a tubing cutter and laid under the truck for a long time thinking about it... .



I called Enterprise Engine Performance and talked about the kit they offer (pusher pump like Steve S. ). I wanted to cut the line in the same place as the kit which will be ordered on Monday... .



Then I laid under there thinking some more.....



=========

Finally I decided to see if the pump fittings would fit the test fittings on my 99's filter housing. . they did... .



So, I tried something less invasive first...



I put a 5 gallon jug of diesel on my valve cover. .

Rigged the new fitting into the test port. .

strung the tubing to the jug and used a cheapo siphon (complete with dog bite) to charge the line... .



Now with a fuel source plumbed to the right side test port, I ran the prime cycle on the lift pump..... (and crossed my fingers)



YAHOOO... On the third cycle, I could see bubbles going in the direction of the fuel jug on my valve cover. This told me that there was still some function left in my weak lift pump... . It was so weak that it could only run with fuel having been delivered from my jug. .

BUT it was enough to start the prime cycle...



I used a vise grip to crimp off this new diesel source and climbed into the cab. .



ON the first try the engine ran smooth, not even a cough!!



I removed my field fix and put the plug back in the filter housing.



On the first try after closing the hood, the engine again started just fine!!



So, try this and you might be able to start your truck if you have the same problem.



==

Footnote, I will order the kit from Enterprise on Monday and try to get a lift pump from DC also!Enterprise pump thread

 

[Snow man]

Dave,why would you knowingly run with a bad pump? You are lucky to have found it,so why risk your VP44,to use it this weekend,especially since you have backup transportation. If it were my truck,it wouldnt be run until the lift pump was replaced. I still feel that the lift pumps will burn up an injection pump,if run for any lenth of time.

 

[Bigsaint]

Originally posted by Snow man

Dave,why would you knowingly run with a bad pump? You are lucky to have found it,so why risk your VP44,to use it this weekend,especially since you have backup transportation. If it were my truck,it wouldnt be run until the lift pump was replaced. I still feel that the lift pumps will burn up an injection pump,if run for any lenth of time.

I have to agree, I, personally, wouldn't run the truck unless you have to. While it may idle just fine, Mr. VP44 will not be very happy trying to suck fuel during throttle up. I found this to be the case when my first Mallory 4150 was pushing daiseys. If the lift pump is truely dead, you will feel a very noticeable stumble/stammer when you attempt to accelerate, least I did.



Scott W.

 

[David_VT]

all good points

I appreciate the concern, really.



Actually the truck is running better with the new filter than before. No stumble at all and it was real bad prior to the filter change... Must have been all the brass shavings in the filter from the nearly dead pump.



To be clear, the lift pump is pushing fuel as witnessed by the siphon line pushing fuel back to the jug once it was properly primed.



I believe the pump degraded to the point where it could not overcome the air in the line and needed the liquid to help it prime itself.



This is exactly as my water pump works on the house when it looses prime. I just pour a bucket of water down the house side of the line and once it hits the pump the pump can create enough seal to start pulling water again.



to be sure, this is a temporary fix and only presented to help someone who is stuck be able to limp home. I would only run the engine when you see that prime has been established and that the weak lift pump is really pushing fuel.

 

[JEMOORE]

I like your way of thinking!

Great post! It's always a pleasure to learn and share ideas. I'll definitely remember this trick. I also agree with Bigsaint and Snowman, however I know that this is only a temporary fix and since the truck has been running for some time in this condition a little bit longer can't hurt much. I think and hope (expect) this engine and fuel system to be tough. If we have to worry about running out of fuel ruining the main injector pump I'll soon be looking at other brands of trucks. In my experiance if there is enough fuel to run the engine the injector pump should be built strong enough not to be damaged. But then who knows, I still can't believe the engineers didn't do a better job on the lift pump.



Almost forgot, if you can, when you take the old lift-pump off, take it apart and let us know what you find. Thanks again.



Jerry

 

[David_VT]

IF DC will pay for it on the extended warranty or under the engine warranty, I probably won't get a chance to tear it apart.



Otherwise I surely will tear it apart so I can send photos to DC with my complaint form...



Truck still running well with no stumble at all!!



But I still will call the dealer first thing in the AM monday.



This has made me rethink the entire extra / better / replacement pump idea. I was set to add the pusher pump that steve has, but I do not want to add a pump to the system that will fail as a block to fuel flow. (I don't know if that pusher Carter fails that way or not)



I would like to find a bellows pump that would work in our application. That way it should fail as an open, thus leaving the injector pump to fend for itself with the ability to pull fuel rather than leaving it to pull against a blockage...

 

[Mopar-muscle]

pusher pump ?????

david , if you are going thru the trouble of cutting the fuel line , why bother adding a second pump ? i would just install a pump back at the tank and be done . the jury is still out on 17 - 20 psi at the lift pump all the time . and my 398 hp at the rear wheels with 6 psi at WOT is enough to tell me that i don't need more ... maybe i do , can 450 be far away ???



i sent you the number for the pump i use .

 

[HVAC]

I Agree

MM, another friend of his suggested the same thing

-------------------------------------------------

I don't like Carter. I don't like the idea of one of the pumps dying and rendering the system inoperable.



I guess I don't buy into the multiple componenet concept. If your alternater were inadequate, would you install a second

alternater to run in parallel? If the water pump couldn't move enough water to keep the engine cool, would you add a second

water pump? I'm prone to finding a better component of another brand and replacing the offending piece altogether.



I prefer one strong pump relocated to the tank. The VP44 has a sliding vane pump in the front which can pull fuel. Installing a

strong pump at the tank is what most car companies do anyway. Most are actually within the tank. In a water well the pump

is located where? At the bottom of the well! Not up at surface level.



Cummins had a modular concept in mind when they outfitted the engine they way they did. Not sure it's the best mechanical

configuration. Simplifies some things I guess. This is why the ECM is bolted to the engine. I would bet the ECM would be

better off somewhere else. Somewhere where the temps might be more moderate and where less moisture exists.

-------------------------------------------------

JMO

 

[David_VT]

isn't any 'other' pump a 2nd pump??

If the expensive injector pump pulls with it's vane pump, isn't any other pump in the system really considered a second pump?



Since the answer is yes, why would we add any other pump that can act as a restriction to flow. Does that not just move the problem from the OEM lift pump to the new frame rail pump?



I am looking for a bellows type pump that will fail as an open rather than have the risk of loosing another electric vane pump that can fail as a blockage.



Can a bellows create enough flow to satisfy our engines? I don't know.

Who makes such a pump? I don't know.

Do I want to risk an engine warranty by showing DC that I destroyed the injector pump with my new fangled BOMB'd pump on the frame rail that lost power or worse... ... Can you say 'RESTRICTED'... ???



Full of ideas but not solutions (yet)...



========

And my trip to the dealer this AM did not give me the warm and fuzzy feeling regarding having the OEM pump paid for...

 

[JEMOORE]

thinking out loud

HVAC, I agree totally on every point you make in the above post, except maybe one. The water well pump. Most deep-well pumps are in the bottom of the well, but not all. For years we had a Ruth Berry on top of the ground with about 100 feet of pipe and a foot valve in the well. No problems. However you certainly make a good point and it is well taken. I just can't see how that short distance on our trucks can (should) make much differance in where the pump is located. Maybe I just hate the thought of having to change the lift-pump if it was located in the tank Seems to me we just need a more heavy duty pump. But do we know what is failing on the stock pumps? I don't. I've read it is mostly the motor. Also read about debris in the filter. That could be two seperate problems. We must be sure what is failing before we can figure out what to do. I guess that's the million dollar question I guess time will tell, but in the mean time??????



Sounds good David, but I have no idea about a bellows type pump. Too bad the fuel tank isn't mounted high enough for gravity flow. I think the fuel might siphon above half-tank, so keeping the tank topped off may take some load off the lift-pump

 

[David_VT]

'transfer pump' is covered, 'lift pump' is not

Well,

My wife got the call from the dealer.



It seems after exhaustive research on the part of the wonderful service team at my dealer, the lift pump is not a covered part after the standard warranty expires. Furthermore it is not covered on my extended drive train warranty.



BUT

After more exhaustive research and calling the part by DC's proper name "transfer pump", it is covered. Unfortunalty my wife did not ask if it was the engine warranty or the extended warranty.



I work in the computer industry, but don't you just hate when computers split hairs like that" Lift pump / Transfer pump



Ah well, good news for the LIFT PUMP on my truck!

 

[David_VT]

DC says 'TRANSFER PUMP OK'....

Well,

What did I really expect anyways?



The tech found the pressures in spec and thus could not replace the pump.



BUMMER



I did find that my HOT PE was left in 'red' mode. This after being dropped off in 'off' mode. Well at least he did not rat me out.

 

[csutton7]

JEMoore--it's well known that electric fuel pumps are great pushers and not suckers-thus putting a pump closer to it's source will help--there's a lot of dead lift/transfer pumps out there for one reason or another--most likely it's due to it's location on the engine--it's to far away from the source--every pump I've looked at says to locate no more than 3-4 feet from the tank and that it should be gravity fed--our trucks do not abide by either of these---I too think like HVAC--use one pump that will work and get it by the tank--I'm gravity fed with an Aeromotive pump(4 mos and counting-knock on wood-longest to date in my quest for the best pump)--anyway that's JMHO---chris

 

[Kingram]

Pumps

I am by no means an expert, or even very knowledgable, on these pumps. But, in all my dealings with other types of pumps (water, waste, oil, etc), the head is always MUCH greater than the lift(suction). I'd assume this is based on simple physics... .



Do the gas trucks have the pump in the tank? I think the filter is... .



My 2cents. May be worth less than that.



Chris

 

[Un-Hemi]

Yes, Kingram, gassers have their injection pumps in the tank, as well as a filter screen on the pickup.



csutton, I'm not familiar with the Aeromotive pump. Can you give more details? I'll try a search in the meantime.



There are one-way valves available that can be plumbed around a fuel pump such that when it fails, fuel can be pulled around it. It might be useful as a emergency limp-mode, but personally, if the lift pump fails, I would rather have a spare under the back seat along with the tools required for replacement. The VP-44 is too expensive to risk on a failed lift pump regardless of what its published capabilities are.



David_VT, it's shameful the way DC treats this lift pump problem. It'll be interesting to see what your experience is when you replace and/or augment your lift pump. Are you planning to install a fuel pressure gauge for future reference????

 

[Bigsaint]

C'mon Chris, let the cat outta the bag



I'll tell ya this much, TommyT, it REQUIRES a regulator with a return to the tank, very high psi's are possible. Chris told me about this pump when he first put it in, but didn't want to post before he had some test miles (or should I say pulls) under his belt.



Scott W.

 

[Max Wedge]

Aeromotive pump Here is my only experience with this pump. Received a clients drag car (’63 Dodge 330 sedan) last month with this pump on it—less than 1 year old and fuel pressures were very erratic—0 to 8 lbs, with 10 AN line to carbs and 6AN for bypass back to tank from pump. Disassembled pump and found brushes where not making contact evenly, and the vanes had some heavy wear on them. It is a great looking pump, but I was disappointed on the internal components. Called the company and they said to send the pump back to them for a check and possible rebuild—they were very friendly and knowledgeable. Pump housing is aluminum, and vanes run in a nylon shell.



I prefer the Mallory Comp 140 rotary style pump, seems for racing these things will swallow anything and keep working—though I have not put on the truck.



For what its worth



Max

 

[csutton7]

Big Saint is right--you'll need a regulator--this baby pumps out 500 gallons an hour and my pressure never goes below 13psi no matter what--SPA guages--it fluctuates between 14 and 17 basically--I'm gravity fed with a -10AN and after the pump it's -8AN--it's overkill, but I'm hoping it will last a couple of years(not a lot of hope with my track record and pumps)---



TommyT---Jegs or Summitt has them--use the Aeromotive regulator--the mallory one I had started leaking shortly after---chris