Amsoil and the API

[illflem]

Originally posted by John

















illflem, Just because you dislike synthetic lubricants doesn't mean they don't work.

John I have no problems with synthetics, just Amsoil. I'm running Delo API certified 5w-40 right now. The Amsoil sales hype and the way it's users seem to have to constantly defend it scares me away. Oh, and did I mention price?

 

[Diesel Freak]

Think of it this way.



I operate a machine manufactured by an ISO compliant company. With this machine comes a set of ISO compliant operating and maintenance instructions.



The machine is guaranteed to operate for 4000 hours as long as the operating and maintenance instructions are followed and documented.



The machine fails at 3999. 99999 hours.



It is discovered that an unapproved lubricant has been used in the machine during its operation. Who is now responsible for the repairs? I am. Even if the lubricant has not caused the failure the company legally can and will refute a warrantee claim.



Also. . if I have a piece of equipment manufactured by an ISO compliant company and use it to manufacturer another piece that is also supposed to be ISO compliant, but my maintenance program is not ISO compliant... is my finished product ISO compliant?



The short answer in NO!



QA sucks, but it gaurantees traceability and accountability to provide product consistency and reliability... . everyone wins!



It all comes down to accountability... . I do what I say I do, and it does what it is supposed to do, and I have the documentation to prove it... ... . front to back and sideways for all the world to see. Can AMSOIL say that?

 

[Sled Puller]

illflem,

"the way it's users seem to have to constantly defend it scares me away. "

THAT is a good reason to not use it Bill. ---NOT! Personlly, I would rather use a product that people say is good!! Doesn't that make sense to you?



All you guys worry about what could happen, and if some salesman from another company would not have put the idea in your head, you would never have come up with it.

Some people are looking for reasons,ANY reason to not use Amsoil. Go figure. if you don't want to use it, fine! Why do you go out of your way to find reasons not to use it? So you don't feel guilty about putting normal oil in your baby?





If we had some record, court documents or something that Amsoil has ripped people off and caused engine failures since 1972, then maybe I would see your point.

I was using the government/API deal as a comparison.





ISO, you know, I don't know! Never had anyone ask me before.

I guess most people/companies I deal with are not concerned.



Of course, I never checked any oil before I used Amsoil,to see if it was ISO certified, HAVE YOU?



Gene

 

[Diesel Freak]

Originally posted by MGM

Of course, I never checked any oil before I used Amsoil,to see if it was ISO certified, HAVE YOU?



Gene

The oil is not certified..... the company is! or more specificly... the individual Plant or Process





I guess most people/companies I deal with are not concerned



you would be suprised, just look at the manufacturer of that huge piece of iron under your hood. Even better, check out the manufacturer of the Processor in the computer you are using to access TDR

 

[LSMITH]

Gene, I absolutely go out of my way to find reasons to not use products, and that goes for all products that I consider important. I do that so I know it is not going to fail me, so it will be there when I need it and I know it won't damage anything else it is used with. I like to think I am being responsible as a consumer. I suppose I could just throw blind faith at a product because someone said it is good. I unfortunately do not have the resources to do that, I must spend wisely to get the most value and quality for my dollar. I will continue to do so.



Hear me well, I have never posted that Amsoil was not a quality product. I have never said that Amsoil was ripping anyone off. I have posted that I would like some assurance that what I buy next month is the same as I got last time, that is all. I have not been provided with that information, or anywhere to get that information. I will save you the time, it is not on their website. I don't question for the sake of questioning, I ask because I want to know.



I have an email into Amsoil to see if someone there can answer what seems to me a simple question.



I also would like to point out why a lot of people distrust the positive points brought up by the Amsoil distributors and dealers, YOU have a vested interest in Amsoil as do some of the others that defend automatically when Amsoil is brought up in any context other than glowing praise. If you did not profit from it's use I for one would be more comfortable with your praise of it. That is understandable right? Would you not do that to the salesman that was trying to sell you on a particular product?

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

ISO Certification

I have been in companies getting certified, worked with and for companies that were/are cerified.



ISO Certification only ensures that there was a written procedure for a process, and that the proposed implementors had access and knowledge of the process WHEN THEY WERE CERTIFIED. It does not mean that the process is accurate or correct, just that it existed and was documented.



I have been to companies that were ISO certified and wondered where they bought their inspectors from because their processes were a joke and only referenced during inspections.



I know that ISO is WAY overrated , so API certification??? what is it really worth?



I run amsoil in my truck, you should too.

 

[Don M]

Amsoil is marketed in a way that many people get a little piece of the pie. After the pie of profits is cut up and divided, how much money does that leave to purchase quality base stocks and addditives? Generally the lowest bidder will get the contract.

The company is gonna get their money. The sales guys are gonna get their money and the guys under the sales guys and the guys under them and so on. How much money is left for a quality product after the profits are spiffed away?



Further, Amsoil is such a small piece of the pie in the oil market their purchasing power is much less than the big guys. The big guys could obtain a higher quality product at a lower cost than Amsoil. Amsoil could now be forced to shop for a base stock that is competitive to keep their product competitive in the market place. The big guys can either hydrocrack, isomerize or build from scratch their own synthetics. Amsoil is relegated to buy from them or other suppliers.



MACK trucks (who use 75% Cummins engines) wont approve the use of Amsoil synthetics in their engines. They do however approve one Amsoil product with the product code of PCO.

This is the blended oil consisting of nearly all dino base stock.

Amsoil by their own admission has stated that API certifying diesel engine oil is close to 500,000 grand just to get started. Why then would they not certify their top of the line and best selling fully snythetic? My guess is the fully snythetic cant hack the API certification process because the base stocks are constantly changing and the quality is inconsistant.



The API is not a government agency either Gene.



Don~

 

[LSMITH]

Mark, you can't be serious can you?



The companies that you are referring to are not using the standards for their intended purpose and are not compliant. They may be registered, but they are not compliant. Big difference. You are correct that it does not mean that the process is right, but the process must be accurate and followed exactly every time on time. Consistency, and traceability are the goals of ISO compliancy. The consistency word comes up again. IF you are compliant you can make the EXACT same product EVERY time regardless of who makes it and when or where it is made. ISO is not way over rated, it is way under utilized, make no mistake about that. I guess you need to understand what it is for and how it works to get the point.



"I run amsoil in my truck, you should too", this is the kind of garbage defensive retort that... ... well, it speaks for itself.

 

[Don M]

Mark said:

"I run amsoil in my truck, you should too".



I did run Amsoil in my engine and transfer case. After a few months they both now leak. The front main and pan gasket leak as well as the transfer case rear output seal and main case seal.

Good old regular Rotella and ATF served me well for less money and many more miles than Amsoil did. Oh, that daul bypass filter Amsoil sells will only accept their filters. I was forced to buy Amsoil bypass and full flow filters to use it. The aluminum base was very picky about how tight or loose the filters were installed. Too tight they would leak. Too loose they would leak. I had to constantly check out the filter for leaks and adjust for torque ,more or less. The fittings that attach the filter adapter to the hoses are torque sensitive as well. Amsoil had found themselves another sucker in me. No more.







Thanks for the advice.



Don~

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Don M

Why then would they not certify their top of the line and best selling fully snythetic? My guess is the fully snythetic cant hack the API certification process because the base stocks are constantly changing and the quality is inconsistant.

As I understand the situation, Amsoil are constantly reviewing their products and tweaking them to ensure they are of consistently high quality, so that the products exceed API specifications.



If they had all their lube oils API certified, they would not be able to tweak them. That is the end result of ALL standards: the resulting products are not as good as they could be, because they have to adhere to some standard generated some time in the past. Amsoil bypasses this by ensuring their synthetic lubes always exceed API specifications by a significant margin.



How can I paraphrase this... Ah. If Amsoil produced oil that merely *met* API specs, I would not use it, because it would be not be enough better to justify the price.



*I* use Amsoil lubes and am happy with their performance. If someone else wants information on Amsoil before trying it, I'll gladly find the info and communicate it. I will gladly provide info and allow the prospective user to decide for himself if he wants to use it or not. If he decides not to, I'll thank him for his interest and be gone. I won't try to change his mind.



Not all Amsoil dealers are the in-your-face type. Some of us will let you make your own decision and will respect it there-after.



Fest3er

 

[danandamy]

FDA certification? Oh I get it, "Fry Daddy Approved"



frydaddydan

 

[Don M]

fast3er said:



"As I understand the situation, Amsoil are constantly reviewing their products and tweaking them to ensure they are of consistently high quality, so that the products exceed API specifications. "



Why would Amsoil need to constantly change their formula or tweak a product touted as one of the best? I still think Amsoil base stocks are all over the graph and cant pass the API cert.

Maybe the additives as well. The API will allow a manufacture to change their product up to 15% in many situations. Is Amsoil changing their products more than 15%?

This goes back to my original idea that Amsoil cant hack the test.



What if Amsoil is not good enough to make the API cert? Would you still use it? MACK and Eaton wont allow the use for their extended drain programs. An Amsoil salesman just two weeks ago told me that Amsoil was one of the only oils to qualify for Eatons 750,000 mile extended drain transmission programs. After a call to Eaton and website check, I found out that Eaton does not allow this practice and that even the specially formulated Eaton lube is only good for 500,000 miles. Eaton has released a document for it customers on this very topic about using lubes for over 250,000 miles that do not make the list. Amsoil did not make the list, but salesmen for it still tell people "its ok".



Further, Amsoil and other synthetics have shown to cause early failure of the cooling hoses for the transmissions in Eaton products. Dont believe me... read it for yourself on the Eaton website.



On another note: if Amsoil has such a problem with using the API certification process for its lubes, why do they use the wording on the bottle "meets API specs" They are not allowed to use the API symbol, but can freely use the words "meets API specs"

Does the average customer know the difference between "meets API specs" and the API symbol? I sure as heck didnt. I picked up the bottle after knowing I needed an oil that was API approved and there were the words "meets API specs"

Amsoil will use the words or API as long as they dont have to pay for it huh?



Don~

 

[Sled Puller]

Don,I cleared up the gov thing in the last one, I was not clear.





THE FILTERS ARE THE IMPORTANT PART, Not the base!!!! SHEESH!



Oil filters need to be properly installed not to leak.



There are 100 other threads right now, talking about oil leaks, NON Amsoil related! GIVE IT UP.

You are always worried about cutting the money pie. That is funny. The CEO's Get 100 million dollar raises even though they lay off 10,000 workers. But you pick out Amsoil's marketing as too expensive to keep up quality control?!?!?!



Amsoil is still family owned, their NAME is on the bottle, they care about quality. The big boys do not care about anything except the bottom line.





I never checked to see if Cummins INC was ISO certified, I should have, eh? Would have made me buy it faster!



Is Joe Donnelly ISO certified? You buy his products.

DD? Piers? DDT? BD? Autowurks? Mitchell?

Mag-hytec, we all have their stuff, ISO? Anyone?





LSMITH,

I only bring up Amsoil when somebody is bad mouthing it, my favorite was the guy with coolant in his oil, but he blamed Amsoil for blowing his engine.

I suppose somebody would tell us the Amsoil caused the head gasket to leak.

Your assurance is their warranty.



As far as me saying good things because I sell it, you have to take my word for it as a Cummins owner that my word is good, and not cash related.

People all the time ask me if I use it! For cryin out loud, how could I sell something if I didn't use it?



How can vendors sell us parts if they don't have a Diesel and know what it is like? I don't trust gasser salesman.



The 5 speeds are a good example. If Amsoil would have ruined mine, I sure as hell would have let you guys know! I have talked plenty of people out of using it, you have to qualify the vehicle.

Gene

 

[LSMITH]

Gene, I just looked at their warranty today, not me man!! No way am I going for that. The stipulations are incredible, written approval and at the mercy of their decision of what caused the problem? Independant testing at my expense and fight them too? What makes you think that fighting them is any easier for the common man than fighting Exxon or Mobil? No warranty there as far as I am concerned. Still no answer to are they certified, and still no answer to WHY the formulation changes. I give up.

 

[Don M]

LSmith,



you sure dont wanna fight them. They keep attorneys ready and waiting for these things to pop up.



I have found out that Amsoil is involved with multi-level marketing lawsuits more than most would know.



here is an example:

http://mlmatty.com/nehra.html



He is one of the many attorneys that is at battle for this proud family owned business.

Some of his clients in Multi-level marketing include well knowns like : BioBoost, Watchers organic Sea Products, Zone Skin Care, Retire Quickly, and DoIt All Travel.

And my favorites Fuller Brush and Amway.



Don~

 

[Lurch]

Stop, you're killin me.



Lurch

 

[GLASMITHS]

AMSOIL OUT

Can anyone tell me which Redline rear oil 75W140 to use. It is coming time to change mine, as well as the transmission, and the Amsoil is going for good. I have used it since the first change; however, there has always been a nagging question about it; and this thread has certainly answered my questions.



Has it been good for me? I don't know! 75k is not much on this vehicle. There this guy a couple TDRs' back with over a million miles on Rotella,, DC lube, and DC filters, and NO BYPASS FILTER .



i do not feel it is necessary for dealers, oil, transmission, engines,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,should post as such, unless they are answering a question made by a member to them or generally asks a question. To get on here and flame somebody because they mention another product is pretty childlike.



API CERTIFICATION? *LL YES. iF YOU CAN'T RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS, JUST STAY ON THE PORCH



my 3c





George

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

I always get in on these hot discussions late . . .





Anyway, a little food for thought. Here is some "independent lab" test data produced by Lubrication Engineers that ends up making the Amsoil look pretty good when it comes to wear resistance. This info came to me in the mail from Mag-Hytek, which actually originated from Lubrication Engineers.



The wear numbers listed below were generated using the ASTM test #D-2670 (only the oil gurus know what that means). Basically it's the test with the little spinning falex pin squeezed between two Vee blocks that is put under controlled pressure by loading gear, yada yada yaaaa. The wear scar that is measured by the number of teeth the machine ratchets down. I think one tooth = . 0000556" of wear



Also there is the oxidation resistance test (doesn't give ASTM test number for this one). The longer it lasts under the applied conditions (whatever they are) means the higher oxidation resistance it has. The higher number in the table equates to higher durability/resistance.



These are in order based on wear scar performance:

Left Column = WEAR SCAR (lower number = better)

Right Column = Oxidation (higher number = better).

* = Synthetic oil



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



02 229 Amsoil HDD and Marine oil* (15W40)

03 311 LE 8800 15W40 engine oil

05 162 Cat DEO CH4

06 701 Royal Purple Long Rider* (whatever that is?)

07 289 Chevron Delo 400

09 150 Castrol Dieseall Plus (what the heck is this stuff???)

11 142 Valvoline Premium Blue*

12 829 Mobil Delvac1 5w40*

16 174 Sinclair Arctic Fire

16 374 Cat DEO 5w40*

18 275 Shell Rotella T

19 133 Valvoline Premium Blue



There were 3 or 4 other off-brand CH-4 and CG-4 diesel oils listed to stay away from, failed the falex pin test and bombed on the oxidation part. They were Chevron RPM, Mystic JT-8, & Exxon XD-3 (never heard of them).



I'll bet the oils that bombed out on these tests, like the Chevron RPM and Exxon XD-3, are API certified. I'll bet Pennzoil is too



Vaughn

 

[illflem]

Two links if you really want to get into it



Is Amsoil a cult?



Amsoil Products Not API Licensed?

 

[Briar Hopper]

The collective ignorance shown here in several of these posts is quite striking. Especially the guy that can't spell, saying he's convinced to quit using Amsoil because of this thread.

Consider the source and his motives. Don M started this thread. He has proven through several previous posts and threads that he has a personal agenda against Amsoil. He derives great amusement from hotly debated topics such as this.

My previous question in this thread was ignored. Why nitpick over API certification, when most of you, Don M included, in the past, have probably used regular motor oil without looking at the bottle to check for certification? And most of you might have tried Slick 50, or Duralube, without even knowing what's in it. Or without looking for certification on those bottles. All because of a very convincing TV ad. I used STP oil additives over 20 years ago, in an old car. Without questioning what was in the can of STP. The car had 120,000 miles on it. I drove it another 140,000 , before it was destroyed in a wreck.

Amsoil is a convenient target for petty guttersniping due to their marketing methods, and lack of certification on some grades of oil. Yet, they've been in business since 1972. The NAPA Auto Parts store in Daytona Beach,Florida has signs advertising Amsoil displayed in their windows. I stopped in to see for myself. The counterman said it is one of their best selling items, several hundred dollars worth a week, and a lot of racers have scooted over from the Speedway to stock up when they ran out. That's my most recent experience. I've seen other such examples around the country. That's a lot of fools. According to some people's logic.

When's the last time you checked the certification on that bottle of medicine, before you poured it in a spoon, and fed it to your child? Is your truck more valuable to you than your children? Mine isn't. Compared to my son, the truck is worth less than a piece of toilet paper. Oh, I forget, you leave that stuff to the wife, right? Well does SHE check?

When she takes the Caravan or Grand Cherokee or whatever to the local Express Lube, does she check for API certification on that drum of bulk oil that they use with a metering hose to fill the engine? Since you're not using Amsoil, do YOU check when you go there? How do you know THAT oil is any good? How do you know they're not surreptiously filling empty bottles to pass off as new?