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Amsoil and the API
- Thread starter Don M
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As I am starting to type this I am asking myself, "Self, why are you even wading in here ?". Well here goes... ... ...
I personally do not use Amsoil. My single reason is that I don't live in a climate where it is needed. The striking thing to me about all these test (wear ball or whatever) is that it is not listed at what tempature (the oil is) these test are done at. Is it room temp. , 100 deg. , 200 deg. , 500 deg. ,??? It probably should not matter, but with my limited engineering studies I bet it does.
We all know that MOST of us do not start our engines (gas or diesel) let the oil pressure build then take off like a bat out of he!!. How do we know NOT to do this, most by watching how others in your family drive or by reading the owners manual.
As others have stated, the API rating is a base to build from. It sets a minimum standard for different classes of oils. I am not versed in much more than this when it comes to the API so I will stop here with the rating.
With all products be they medicines or machine parts, they all have minimum (sp) standards. Is this good enough ??? For more than 95% of the cases yes it probably is. Is it good enough for you, again it all depends. I would venture to guess that 99. 5% of CTD owners will never stress their trucks to the point of truly needing anything that goes beyond API cert. Remember that the Govermant has their own standards for oils and fuels used in jets and tanks and the API works great for them!!!!
For me personally I would and do choose my oil based more on what type of climate it will be operating in the MAJORITY of the time with the coming cycle time of the oil change (you guys form Wiscon. and the Upper penisula know this). I will stay with my good ole dino oil until we use it all up.
Remember when you bought your truck, did you get a good deal??? You must have because you bought it. A good deal is defined as "the point at which both buyer and seller feel that their subconsicous needs have been satisfied. " Notice subconsicous needs. How did they become subconsicous??? It is called Marketing.
I personally do not use Amsoil. My single reason is that I don't live in a climate where it is needed. The striking thing to me about all these test (wear ball or whatever) is that it is not listed at what tempature (the oil is) these test are done at. Is it room temp. , 100 deg. , 200 deg. , 500 deg. ,??? It probably should not matter, but with my limited engineering studies I bet it does.
We all know that MOST of us do not start our engines (gas or diesel) let the oil pressure build then take off like a bat out of he!!. How do we know NOT to do this, most by watching how others in your family drive or by reading the owners manual.
As others have stated, the API rating is a base to build from. It sets a minimum standard for different classes of oils. I am not versed in much more than this when it comes to the API so I will stop here with the rating.
With all products be they medicines or machine parts, they all have minimum (sp) standards. Is this good enough ??? For more than 95% of the cases yes it probably is. Is it good enough for you, again it all depends. I would venture to guess that 99. 5% of CTD owners will never stress their trucks to the point of truly needing anything that goes beyond API cert. Remember that the Govermant has their own standards for oils and fuels used in jets and tanks and the API works great for them!!!!
For me personally I would and do choose my oil based more on what type of climate it will be operating in the MAJORITY of the time with the coming cycle time of the oil change (you guys form Wiscon. and the Upper penisula know this). I will stay with my good ole dino oil until we use it all up.
Remember when you bought your truck, did you get a good deal??? You must have because you bought it. A good deal is defined as "the point at which both buyer and seller feel that their subconsicous needs have been satisfied. " Notice subconsicous needs. How did they become subconsicous??? It is called Marketing.
Don,
You have just proven what Briar has said is true about you. All that link shows is that Amsoil has an Attorney, just like ANY OTHER COMPANY.
It does not say anything about defending lawsuits.
You deliberately try to mislead people.
What are you up to?
illflem,
Why do you study Amsoil so much, and pop into every thread to post your concerns?
I think there is a few other more interesting threads on that site, like:
"Castrol Syntec is Synthetic" or it's twin, "Castrol Syntec is not Synthetic"
LOL! Same fights!!!
Gene
Why do you study Amsoil so much, and pop into every thread to post your concerns?
I think there is a few other more interesting threads on that site, like:
"Castrol Syntec is Synthetic" or it's twin, "Castrol Syntec is not Synthetic"
LOL! Same fights!!!
Gene
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Briar wrote: "He has proven through several previous posts and threads that he has a personal agenda against Amsoil. "
Actually I would have to say I do not have a personal agenda against Amsoil. If you read back a few months you will see I have used or tried Amsoil in everything except my 5 speed transmission. The transfer case has started leaking as well as the engine. The daul bypass filter hoses and the housing the filters screw to. This is my personal experience with Ansoil. After this all started happening I wanted to know much more about Amsoil and started doing research.
Briar wrote: "Don M included, in the past, have probably used regular motor oil without looking at the bottle to check for certification?"
No, the statement I typed was that I DID look for the API print and found it on the bottle "meets API specs" I was ignorant at the time on what it took to get the API symbol. The Amsoil product does use the API wording but does not use the API symbol. I did not know the difference. I do now though after looking into it. the Amsoil "meets API specs" and the API symbol are two differng things. Amsoil has not earned the right to use the symbol on any but thre of its oils. BTW, Amsoil are the ones making the statement that the oil "meets API specs" NOT the API.
Briar wrote: "When she takes the Caravan or Grand Cherokee or whatever to the local Express Lube, does she check for API certification on that drum of bulk oil that they use with a metering hose to fill the engine? Since you're not using Amsoil, do YOU check when you go there? How do you know THAT oil is any good? How do you know they're not surreptiously filling empty bottles to pass off as new?"
This reminds me of a local gas station that would sell the same can of oil over and over to local old ladies. Remember the old metal and paper oil cans you had to puncture with the metal oil pooring spout. The would bring that same can of oil out to sell everytime someone pulled into the full service spots.
Im not the only person that wont use Amsoil anymore... MACK and Eaton say not to either. Im not sure which salesman posted that the Amsoil gear lube was wothy of the Eaton 750,000 miles drain interval program, but after speaking with Eaton and checking the website they do not even have such a program. The most they allow is the 500,000 mile interval and it is under certain conditions and with only a handfull of oils approved for such.
MGM, yeah I agree on that point about all companies have attorneys. The point I was trying to make is that the Amsoil attorney is also worked or working for other companies like Amway and Fuller brush. The MLM marketing thing is another part of my problem, but I will add that to a later thread.
Did you know that Amsoil has been sued by some of its own salesmen for MLM troubles?
Remember guys this is just a discussion. Not a personal thing. I do like to debate topics. All awile I have a smile on my face.
Newsflash: Don M, Briar Hopper, and MGM have the same political views for the most part. I hold no personal feelings about oil topics no matter which side you guys choose.
Don~
Actually I would have to say I do not have a personal agenda against Amsoil. If you read back a few months you will see I have used or tried Amsoil in everything except my 5 speed transmission. The transfer case has started leaking as well as the engine. The daul bypass filter hoses and the housing the filters screw to. This is my personal experience with Ansoil. After this all started happening I wanted to know much more about Amsoil and started doing research.
Briar wrote: "Don M included, in the past, have probably used regular motor oil without looking at the bottle to check for certification?"
No, the statement I typed was that I DID look for the API print and found it on the bottle "meets API specs" I was ignorant at the time on what it took to get the API symbol. The Amsoil product does use the API wording but does not use the API symbol. I did not know the difference. I do now though after looking into it. the Amsoil "meets API specs" and the API symbol are two differng things. Amsoil has not earned the right to use the symbol on any but thre of its oils. BTW, Amsoil are the ones making the statement that the oil "meets API specs" NOT the API.
Briar wrote: "When she takes the Caravan or Grand Cherokee or whatever to the local Express Lube, does she check for API certification on that drum of bulk oil that they use with a metering hose to fill the engine? Since you're not using Amsoil, do YOU check when you go there? How do you know THAT oil is any good? How do you know they're not surreptiously filling empty bottles to pass off as new?"
This reminds me of a local gas station that would sell the same can of oil over and over to local old ladies. Remember the old metal and paper oil cans you had to puncture with the metal oil pooring spout. The would bring that same can of oil out to sell everytime someone pulled into the full service spots.
Im not the only person that wont use Amsoil anymore... MACK and Eaton say not to either. Im not sure which salesman posted that the Amsoil gear lube was wothy of the Eaton 750,000 miles drain interval program, but after speaking with Eaton and checking the website they do not even have such a program. The most they allow is the 500,000 mile interval and it is under certain conditions and with only a handfull of oils approved for such.
MGM, yeah I agree on that point about all companies have attorneys. The point I was trying to make is that the Amsoil attorney is also worked or working for other companies like Amway and Fuller brush. The MLM marketing thing is another part of my problem, but I will add that to a later thread.
Did you know that Amsoil has been sued by some of its own salesmen for MLM troubles?
Remember guys this is just a discussion. Not a personal thing. I do like to debate topics. All awile I have a smile on my face.
Newsflash: Don M, Briar Hopper, and MGM have the same political views for the most part. I hold no personal feelings about oil topics no matter which side you guys choose.
Don~
Go to the source.
Before I would condem a product of quality like Amsoil,I would go to there web site and contact them like I have and let them explain it to you. I can not belive that the very company that introduced synthetics in the early 70's would compromise it's product's. Thats just my opinion,go and read the fact's for yourself.
Before I would condem a product of quality like Amsoil,I would go to there web site and contact them like I have and let them explain it to you. I can not belive that the very company that introduced synthetics in the early 70's would compromise it's product's. Thats just my opinion,go and read the fact's for yourself.
Amsoil being a synthetic should have mopped the floor with the other oils. Look at the LE oil. It is right there with the Amsoil in wear and has a much higher oxidation resistance and its a dino oil. Hmmmm.
At one time Wayne posted this to me:
DonM,
I can assure you that Amsoil has done, and continues to do "Real World" testing, such as large fleets, as well as lab tests, and they do cost a ton of MONEY! In fact, an independent test in the "Real World" of fleet testing of class 8 trucks using this product in the differentials obtained up to 4. 8 percent more MPG than the other trucks in the same trucks using another popular gear lube. This would tell me that the Amsoil 75W-90 was producing less friction, and of course less friction means less heat! I can also assure you that the gear lube in question (Series 2000 75W-90 )is approved for Eaton/Rockwell applications, which will allow for a drain interval of up to 750,000 miles.
Best regards,
Wayne
amsoilman
You say you can assure me !!!! Well Wayne , you are IN-FACT worng about the oil drain intervals for the Eaton transmissions. Eaton does not even have such a program. 500,000 miles is the max and under very specific conditions. Where did you get this information from? I am not saying you are mis-reprenting the product, BTW. Your sales brochures say this? Where did it come from? Hope your Eaton custmomers know that Eaton will void a warranty claim for their ten thousand dollar plus transmission for using an unapproved oil.
Further, Amsoil is not even on the approved list of oils to use in Eaton transmissions period. They have two programs (E500 and the E250) 500,000 miles and 250,000 miles respectively. Amsoil does not even make the E250 program. Eaton continues to say they have had continued trouble with synthetics that are not approved by them of oil colling lines that leak and oil coolers degraded by the aggressive additive packages they use. Castrol makes the list. The same oil you guys call overpriced junk.
Don~
At one time Wayne posted this to me:
DonM,
I can assure you that Amsoil has done, and continues to do "Real World" testing, such as large fleets, as well as lab tests, and they do cost a ton of MONEY! In fact, an independent test in the "Real World" of fleet testing of class 8 trucks using this product in the differentials obtained up to 4. 8 percent more MPG than the other trucks in the same trucks using another popular gear lube. This would tell me that the Amsoil 75W-90 was producing less friction, and of course less friction means less heat! I can also assure you that the gear lube in question (Series 2000 75W-90 )is approved for Eaton/Rockwell applications, which will allow for a drain interval of up to 750,000 miles.
Best regards,
Wayne
amsoilman
You say you can assure me !!!! Well Wayne , you are IN-FACT worng about the oil drain intervals for the Eaton transmissions. Eaton does not even have such a program. 500,000 miles is the max and under very specific conditions. Where did you get this information from? I am not saying you are mis-reprenting the product, BTW. Your sales brochures say this? Where did it come from? Hope your Eaton custmomers know that Eaton will void a warranty claim for their ten thousand dollar plus transmission for using an unapproved oil.
Further, Amsoil is not even on the approved list of oils to use in Eaton transmissions period. They have two programs (E500 and the E250) 500,000 miles and 250,000 miles respectively. Amsoil does not even make the E250 program. Eaton continues to say they have had continued trouble with synthetics that are not approved by them of oil colling lines that leak and oil coolers degraded by the aggressive additive packages they use. Castrol makes the list. The same oil you guys call overpriced junk.
Don~
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amsoilman
Staff Alumni
LSmith,
If what you are saying is true, why did the Consumers Report find in there study a difference in Quality , even to the point of chemical properties. They even reported the product was a different COLOR ! The Brand was the same, but the Contents were not! Is this Consistancy and Quality control?
Best regards,
Wayne
amsoilman
Well folks: Like it was said, it's getten good now: I've read the whole thing and must say some folks seem to love the goverment to run their lives. POLITICS... . Teachers Union, Ironworkers Local,Teamsters, you name it, somebody wants to rule. I'm am a non-union ironworker and will put my skill up against any of the same trade. You go to a "certified mechanic" ASE,get your truck screwed up. Do the work in your drive way and things work out. Home schooled childern consistantly score higher than goverment schools. Why do we need some organization to tell us things are OK? If I use Amsoil and an independent lab tells me it's working, why is that a bad oil?
When I buy an accessory from some co. , I don't look to see if they belong to an organization that will refund the product if that company goes out of business.
I buy tires from an independent co and rely on them to make it good. Same with the transmission problems I've been having. I've been using Amsoil for about 2 years and don't have a beef with the product. Why worry with the API deal? Look at the screwing we get from Dodge and we still are buying their trucks.
Now my thoughts. If it works, use it. If you see engines blowing up, don't use it. I really don't understand all the banter about the oil or the additives. If all that is neccessary for you don't use it. Otherwise have a good drive. .
. . Preston. .
When I buy an accessory from some co. , I don't look to see if they belong to an organization that will refund the product if that company goes out of business.
I buy tires from an independent co and rely on them to make it good. Same with the transmission problems I've been having. I've been using Amsoil for about 2 years and don't have a beef with the product. Why worry with the API deal? Look at the screwing we get from Dodge and we still are buying their trucks.
Now my thoughts. If it works, use it. If you see engines blowing up, don't use it. I really don't understand all the banter about the oil or the additives. If all that is neccessary for you don't use it. Otherwise have a good drive. .
. . Preston. .
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At $5. 00 a quart off the Amsoil website, it would cost $55. 00 to fill up the ram, and another $70. 00 to fill up the PSD Excursion. Since extended oil changes are not approved by either Ford or Dodge, who in there right mind would spend this kind of money to run Amsoil and still maintain there factory warranty. (The PSD is still stock) I became my own warranty station over things that give me more horsepower. Blowing a warranty over oil isnt worth it in my book.
I guess this boils down to a personal thing. I would rather go to Walmart and pick up 2 cases of oil without any personal contact with a salesman. But then again... . If I had Amsoil, I would probably get a sticker... .
(Sorry... Couldnt resist)
I guess this boils down to a personal thing. I would rather go to Walmart and pick up 2 cases of oil without any personal contact with a salesman. But then again... . If I had Amsoil, I would probably get a sticker... .
(Sorry... Couldnt resist)
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Thanks Amsoilman, my fault. I must have skipped over it. But looking at the info I don't know how!!!! I stand corrected... ... .
But this just starts me to wondering, would the test show much difference if done at more realistic temps. , say 150 to 225 deg. I don't run an oil temp gauge so I may be out of line with my temps but that would seem to mimmick the real world temp of the oil.
Again, I believe that you guys in the colder climates are more right than wrong using Amsoil. The lower pour points are more of a concern in the winter. Us guys in the sub-tropics don't let that bother us.
But this just starts me to wondering, would the test show much difference if done at more realistic temps. , say 150 to 225 deg. I don't run an oil temp gauge so I may be out of line with my temps but that would seem to mimmick the real world temp of the oil.
Again, I believe that you guys in the colder climates are more right than wrong using Amsoil. The lower pour points are more of a concern in the winter. Us guys in the sub-tropics don't let that bother us.
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Preston,
the API is not a governmental agency. I dont like alphabet agencies anymore than you do. Private, public, government, etc.
The API is a little bit of a guarantee that we are getting a consistant product. I feel that Amsoil is not a consistant product and cannot get the API approval done with its synthetics. An Amsoil salsemen on the other page just stated the product is continually tweaked or changed. Continually changing and tweaking does not add up to consistancy.
Expanding on JConleys post... Dc asks us to use an API certified oil right? From the DC owners manual:
This symbol on the front of the oil container means the oil has been certified by the API to meet all lubricating requirements specified by the Chrysler Corporation. Synthetic oils may be used provided that the oil requirements described above are met and the recomended maintenance intervals for oil and filter changes are followed. OILS THAT DO NOT HAVE BOTH THE ENGINE OIL CERTIFICATION MARK OR CURRENT SERVICE SYMBOL AND THE CORRECT VISCOSITY GRADE NUMBER SHOULD NOT BE USED.
Amsoil does not have the certification needed to even make the list of approved oils for regular maintenance levels much less extended drain intervals.
Don~
the API is not a governmental agency. I dont like alphabet agencies anymore than you do. Private, public, government, etc.
The API is a little bit of a guarantee that we are getting a consistant product. I feel that Amsoil is not a consistant product and cannot get the API approval done with its synthetics. An Amsoil salsemen on the other page just stated the product is continually tweaked or changed. Continually changing and tweaking does not add up to consistancy.
Expanding on JConleys post... Dc asks us to use an API certified oil right? From the DC owners manual:
This symbol on the front of the oil container means the oil has been certified by the API to meet all lubricating requirements specified by the Chrysler Corporation. Synthetic oils may be used provided that the oil requirements described above are met and the recomended maintenance intervals for oil and filter changes are followed. OILS THAT DO NOT HAVE BOTH THE ENGINE OIL CERTIFICATION MARK OR CURRENT SERVICE SYMBOL AND THE CORRECT VISCOSITY GRADE NUMBER SHOULD NOT BE USED.
Amsoil does not have the certification needed to even make the list of approved oils for regular maintenance levels much less extended drain intervals.
Don~
Shrimpy,
the oils were tested using a real world number close to 192 degrees. This is in-line with most operating temps we see. The amsoilman post read the temps in Celcius. ASTM standards generally follow this measurement.
Regardless the oil is not API approved or certified and the owners manual states the oil should not be used. Simple terms. No confusion.
Don~
the oils were tested using a real world number close to 192 degrees. This is in-line with most operating temps we see. The amsoilman post read the temps in Celcius. ASTM standards generally follow this measurement.
Regardless the oil is not API approved or certified and the owners manual states the oil should not be used. Simple terms. No confusion.
Don~
WELL SAID.
Can't get any more simple than that.
Can't get any more simple than that.
This is sort of the icing on the cake for me. A few months ago I posted about the lube oil specialist researcher one of the other MSU Ag Stations has working on canola lube oil. They have 22 Kubota engines running on different lube oils, formulations of canola oil etc 24/7. When I asked if they were testing Amsoil he replied that they couldn't because the product was too inconsistent for research purposes. He explained how the small company has problems acquiring base stocks of the price and grade required consistently as has already been discussed here.
I personally have to wonder what Amsoil does when the stock that has the required quality isn't available at the price they need. Do they raise the price of their product (not likely) or go for a lower quality base stock since they aren't bound by API certification? Or are Amsoil's profits padded so much they can use a higher priced base and still make money? Windfall profits when the base stock price is down?
Bottom line for me is if you have the money to blow on oil use Amsoil, it defiantly won't blow your engine. Whether there are any other benifits that that make it's use economical besides to the folks that make money selling it I highly doubt.
I personally have to wonder what Amsoil does when the stock that has the required quality isn't available at the price they need. Do they raise the price of their product (not likely) or go for a lower quality base stock since they aren't bound by API certification? Or are Amsoil's profits padded so much they can use a higher priced base and still make money? Windfall profits when the base stock price is down?
Bottom line for me is if you have the money to blow on oil use Amsoil, it defiantly won't blow your engine. Whether there are any other benifits that that make it's use economical besides to the folks that make money selling it I highly doubt.
Canola oil boys, yep, I'd take their word fer it .
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