Amsoil not API certified

[Pit Bull]

I did a little cost benefit analysis and now I'm stuck using Rotella T 15/40. This is my problem. I'm in my early 50's and my truck has around 50K miles on it, and I drive around 20K miles a year. It's going to take me over 20 years to get this truck to 500K miles and Rotella T has done that for trucks featured in the TDR. The stuff is just to cheap and it works and it is sold everywhere. I am going to upgrade to the microglass type filter I would like to try the synthetic but it is almost 4 times more expensive

 

[fj40charles]

Another thing to consider... . IMHO, extended drain intervals do nothing for the guys that are somewhat heavily bombed. Do you really want to drive 20-25K with all of the soot being produced when you smoke? I don't have a bypass filter and like looking under the hood from time to time to check for any leaks/problems.



I feel comfortable draining my dino oil at 3K miles.



Pit Bull, excellent point about high mileage vehicles running

plain old dino oil. The real benefit of synthetics for me would be

better oil flow in extreme cold temps.



Charles

 

[RustyJC]

I'm in somewhat the same situation as Pit Bull. I've owned my truck for over a year, and it only has 8,300 miles on it. It's used almost exclusively to tow our 13,500 lb 5th wheel RV. It might go out on a 600-700 mile trip, then sit in the garage for 1-2 months.



Although I've used synthetics exclusively in my other vehicles since 1985, the operating profile of this vehicle is leading me to continue using dino oil (Delo 400 15W-40 to date) even after I pass the 10,000 mile break-in threshold.



Right now, I'm changing oil and filter every 3,000 miles. For a vehicle that sits up as much as ours does, I really don't care to have weak combustion acids sitting in the crankcase for extended periods of time as I would if I used a synthetic with extended change intervals - these acids are eliminated with the 3,000 mile oil change intervals. Although I could still do this with a synthetic, the cost/benefit analysis just doesn't work out.



The moral of my story - different horses for different courses. Each individual has to decide what works best for him/her.



JM2CW



Rusty

 

[JJW_ND]

Use what makes you happy.

I have used Amsoil engine oil for over almost 200K miles. I am trying Delvac 1 now to see how it does not that Amsoil was not doing just fine. I switched to full synthetics at a time when I was changeing every three weeks with 6K intervals. No bypass filter but I did extend oil drains out to 24K. I have grabbed a sample every 6K since about 20K. I have yet to have a sample come back saying change the oil. This is with dino oil and synthetics. I also moved to synthetics because -30 degree cold starts will get your attention with the oil presure delay. With out a doudt the 5W synthetics provide the quickest oil pressure with extreme cold starts. Even 15W40 synthetic was slow!



My recomendations up here where we have winter to new diesels drivers is: if you drive more then 30K per year, or your truck sets out side in the winter (very cold starts) I would run a 5W synthetic even yearround. If your truck is a garage every night, drive 10 - 20K per year run Delo! But even with Delo I would not waste oil with anything less then 5K oil changes. I would only do 3K oil changes if you only do 3K or less per year.



It is interesting to see Cummins is fully endorsing the new Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme 5W oil which is CI rated. http://www.valvolinehd.com/onroad/blue2000.html This looks to be a very good oil. Base stock ????? I recently picked up some more Delvac 1 and found the PBExtreme almost have the price of Delvac 1.



If one has any engine related problems (warrenty) it will not be a result of a fully synthetic diesel engine oil. Modern engine oils (Fully API certified or not) are just to good.



jjw

ND

 

[amsoilman]

I know this issue has been beat to death, but I can't resist responding.



As long ago as October 1995, there was a SAE Technical Document #952553 that addressed Synthetic oils and their ability to extend oil drain intervals. I will once again post a part of the document. Keep in mind, this was in 1995!



A Synthetic Diesel Engine Oil with Extended

Laboratory Test and Field Service Performance





ABSTRACT



This paper describes the engine test and extended oil drain field performance of new synthetic engine oil technology developed for use in North American low-emission heavy-duty Diesel engines. The resulting formulation utilizes an advanced additive system specifically tailored for synthetic base stocks which exceeds current industry and engine builder targets in critical performance tests. Use of synthetic base stocks allows the formulation of engine oils with a unique combination of performance characteristics, which include meeting SAE 5W-40 viscosity requirements for cold starting benefits while maintaining low volatility loss at high temperature for oil consumption control. In addition to meeting API CG-4, CF-4F, CF-2, CF, SH and EC requirements, this technology has also demonstrated exceptional performance in extended-length Diesel and gasoline engine tests. Furthermore, it has also performed very well in extended service interval field tests.

At drain intervals up to four times those normally recommended, excellent engine wear, deposit protection, and oil consumption control have been consistently demonstrated. Additionally, fuel economy benefits in excess of 4% relative to SAE 15W-40 conventional mineral oils have been documented.



The desire to reduce costs associated with the operation of heavy-duty diesel engines has prompted considerable interest in extending the mileage and/or time between engine and vehicle service intervals. Extended service intervals for engine and other vehicle lubricants offer the potential) for multiple cost benefits. Lower cost for consumable materials (lubricants and filters), reduced labor costs for scheduled

maintenance, less out-of service time for engines and/or vehicles, and lower expenses for disposal of used oil and filters are several potential benefits that could be realized by extending service intervals. As operating costs rise, the incentive for fleet operators to extend engine service intervals increases. It is critical, however, that extension of engine service intervals does not negatively impact engine reliability and durability since increased repair costs and engine down-time would rapidly offset cost benefits gained by extending service intervals.



At the same time that engine operators are recognizing the benefits for extending service intervals, diesel engine manufacturers are producing updated emission controlled engines with significantly higher specific power output than the older engines they replace. Therefore, operating conditions for engine oils are likely to be more severe due to potentially increased thermal and load stresses. Engine builders and operators also expect improved durability from modern diesel engines, further increasing the performance demands on engine oil technology. Combining a move to extended oil drain intervals with the introduction of engines with higher power densities and longer service lifetimes increases the challenges for developing engine oils capable of providing the level of protection needed to prevent lubricant related engine problems.

The objective of the work described in this paper was to develop a high performance diesel engine oil with the capacity to provide the maximum level of engine protection at extended oil drain intervals.



PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY



The performance benefits of well balanced engine oils formulated with synthetic polyalaolefin (PAO) base stocks have been well documented in the literature (1-4); therefore, this was considered as the preferred approach to develop the best possible premium diesel engine oil. A number of Synthetic diesel engine oil formulations, based on specially developed additive technology, were used as the starting point. The additive components were selected to optimize the heavy-duty diesel engine performance of the final product while maintaining a high level of gasoline engine test performance. For example, the ashless dispersant and metallic detergent systems were carefully balanced to minimize formation of diesel piston deposits. Additionally, the viscosity of the base stock system and concentration of viscosity improver polymer were selected to provide a product meeting SAE 5W-40 viscometrics. This viscosity grade was

considered to be optimum for this application since it allows for exceptional low temperature properties while maintaining the high temperature viscosity at a level typical of modern Diesel engine oils. Some of the characteristics of the resulting synthetic heavy-duty diesel engine oil (SYN-DEO) are summarized in the following section.



Many units have operated on SYN-DEO in heavy-duty, long-haul service at extended oil drain intervals, with some units on drain intervals beyond 100,000 miles. Even under these conditions, SYN-DEO has consistently provided measurable benefits in terms of improved engine performance.

Fleet tests with SYN-DEO are being conducted in Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel and Mack engines.



CONCLUSIONS



An SAE 5W-40 synthetic heavy duty diesel engine oil exceeding CG-4, CF-4, CF-2, CF, SH, and EC performance specifications has been developed. Results from this study indicate that formulating an optimized high performance additive system utilizing synthetic base stocks provides a product with a combination of unique physical properties, and laboratory and field engine performance attributes. The high level of performance documented for SYN-DEO in standard and extended-length engine tests was further demonstrated in field testing using greatly extended oil drain intervals. The successful performance of SYN-DEO in severe fleet service confirms the potential for premium synthetic diesel engine oils in extended service applications. Application of this technology offers numerous significant benefits to engine

users.



The extraordinary rheological characteristics of SYN-DEO make it well suited for applications where low temperature engine operation or high temperature oil stability are of concern. The outstanding pumping and cranking performance of this product offers excellent low temperature starting performance. At the same time, the synthetic base stocks provide a product with kinematic and high-temperature high-shear viscosities at levels typical of premium SAE 15W-40 mineral oils. Additionally, the high temperature volatility of SYN-DEO is well below that of most multigrade diesel engine oils.



2. When used at standard oil drain intervals, SYN-DEO will provide a substantial performance reserve in the areas of soot dispersancy, viscosity stability, sludge and deposit control, engine wear, and oxidation stability, with reduced Oil consumption and improved fuel economy, all of which should contribute to extended engine life.





This has nothing to do with MLM! Just plain facts!



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Mike Ellis]

My logic (and yearly driving mileage) are pretty much identical to Pit Bull's, for that reason I've stuck with Rotella. Gotta love that smell.



I've used synthetic lubes for some applications, but I am not as gung ho on brand loyalty as some folks are. Rotella is stocked at the store I go to, so I use that. If they had Delo instead, I'd probably be running it and would expect to get the same results. If I shelled out extra $$$ for synthetics I'd expect the wear to be less and fuel economy greater, doubt I would run greatly extended drain intervals though.



This sort of argument has been going on every since Davy Crockett and Daniel Boone had a fistfight over bear grease vs. possum lube for their flintlocks. The argument is probably still burning hot somewhere and tempers along with it, although today you are more likely to see WD-40 vs. "current wonderlube for guns", or synthetics vs. dino. If people can't find something to argue about, they'll invent something in short order.



Extended drain intervals... hmmm. Wonder if my aversion to them is due to my urge to keep things clean, or because of old memories of Dad whizzing by the service stations at 80 mph while my back teeth were floating?? I'm just glad he had never heard of bypass filters back then. . !

 

[Kimrey]

I have a solution to all the argument. www.schaefferoil.com/data/700.htm This is the oil I use, and it meets all the specs as you can see.

 

[Texas Diesel]

We are all indanger of this:



http://skepdic.com/testimon.html



I think it is called brand loyality



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Kimrey, looks like awesome stuff:



Supreme 7000 SAE 15W-40 meets and exceeds the following manufacturers’ specifications and requirements: Military Specifications MIL-PRE-2104G and A-A-52306A, API Service Classification CI-4/CH-4/SL, Global Specification DHD-1, JASO DH-1, Mack EO-N and EO-N Plus, Allison C-4, Caterpillar, Caterpillar TO-2, Cummins CES 20078, CES 20076, CES 20071; Detroit Diesel, Detroit Diesel/MTU Types Categories 1 and 2, International Harvester, Navistar, John Deere, JI Case, Komatsu Dresser, ACEA E5-99, E3-96, B3-98, B4-98 A3-98; Duetz, Damiler Chrysler MB228. 3, Damiler Chrysler MB228. 5, MTU MTL 5044 Type 2; MAN 271,Renault, Scania, Volvo VDS-2 and VDS-3, and Volkswagen VW 502. 00 and 505. 00.



How much is it?

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Kimrey - nothing different between the Schaeffer oil and Amsoil



Schaeffer:

Supreme 7000 SAE 15W-40 meets and exceeds the following manufacturers’ specifications and requirements: Military Specifications MIL-PRE-2104G and A-A-52306A, API Service Classification CI-4/CH-4/SL, Global Specification DHD-1, JASO DH-1, Mack EO-N and EO-N Plus, Allison C-4, Caterpillar, Caterpillar TO-2, Cummins CES 20078, CES 20076, CES 20071; Detroit Diesel, Detroit Diesel/MTU Types Categories 1 and 2, International Harvester, Navistar, John Deere, JI Case, Komatsu Dresser, ACEA E5-99, E3-96, B3-98, B4-98 A3-98; Duetz, Damiler Chrysler MB228. 3, Damiler Chrysler MB228. 5, MTU MTL 5044 Type 2; MAN 271,Renault, Scania, Volvo VDS-2 and VDS-3, and Volkswagen VW 502. 00 and 505. 00.

Amsoil:

AMSOIL Synthetic Heavy-Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil is Recommended for Applications Requiring the Following Specifications:



SAE 15W-40

API Engine Service CF, CF-2, CG-4, CH-4, SH, SJ

MIL-PRF-2104G, MIL-L-21260D* (*Rust Protection and Acid Neutralization Test)

Allison C-3, C-4

Mack EO-L, EO-L+, EO-M, E)-M+

M. A. N. 271

Mercedes-Benz AG 227. 1, 228. 1, 228. 3

Scania Long Drain

Volvo VDS, VDS-2

VW 505. 00

Cummins CES 20071, 20072, 20076

MTU

EMA LRG1

In both cases the two companies are stating that their oil meet or exceeds the specification of the appropriate API ratings - in both cases neither one is API certified. In past threads it's been pointed out that Amsoil makes both API certified oils (that they don't mention extended drain intervals) and non-API cetified oils that they state meet or exceed the API specs (that do allow extended drain intervals). To each his own, you have to decide whether to believe them or not.

 

[illflem]

Texas Diesel, the testimonial link was right on.



I have long felt that when a person pays too much for a product they will often subconsciously justify the higher cost by thinking the product is better when in fact a cheaper product is just as good. They will often carry this a step further by trying to convince others of the superior value of the product. Nobody wants to admit they got burnt.

 

[Texas Diesel]

Steve St. Laurent, I dont understand, "Supreme 7000 meets and exceeds " blah blah "API service classification"blah blah is not the same as saying " AMSOIL Synthetic Heavy-Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil is Recommended for Applications Requiring the Following Specifications blah blah"



Recomended by who?



I'm not arguing with you, I just dont see the two statements as equal.



I guess it comes down to this, isnt there a site that the API has that indicates whose oil is certified by API?



Is certification different than simply "meeting or exceeding" ?

 

[illflem]

I think all Schaeffer oils are API certified. Maybe this will prove it

http://www.api.org/cgi-bin/eolcs_li.cgi?n=schaeffer

 

[Pit Bull]

It is interesting to see Cummins is fully endorsing the new Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme 5W oil which is CI rated.



Do they sell this at the Cummins service locations? The reason I ask is that I have a Cummins shop close to me and might try this stuff out for this winter if it is available. Any body else have any experence with this stuff?

 

[gsbrockman]

Pit Bull :

I work at an S&S Tire in Lexington, KY. Apollo Oil in Winchester, KY. is our supplier of case goods and bulk oil. I was told that the old Premium Blue 2000 was being discontinued and that the 5W40 Extreme was its replacement. I've never had any problem with the old handy-dandy 15W40 Rotella-T using OE filters and 4000 mile change intervals. Our cost on the 5W40 Extreme is $14. 40 per gallon. $39. 60 in oil (11 quarts) excluding the filter would make for a quite expensive oil change; however, I may try it this winter. Shell also has a new 5W40 full synthetic as well. Hope this helps !



dmurdock: Your image cracked me up... ... ...

 

[Riflesmith]

And the point of this entire thread is what?



It seems obvious to me that not one of us is going to change our minds about our choices in lubricants.



It is just as obvious that most of the people who are criticizing Amsoil have never used it. Did it ever occur to some of you that Amsoil has nothing to gain and everything to lose by marketing a sub-standard product? People who use Amsoil and swear by it do so for a reason---it has worked for them in the past and they will trust it to work for them in the future.



If I were to tell someone he made a poor choice by buying brand xyz injectors when I have no experience with brand xyz injectors, how much credibility would I have?



Everyone who is critical of Amsoil's lack of API certification, stating that "DC might not honor an engine warranty if it is used" should take a good look at their trucks and see if all their injector mods and fueling enhancement devices would meet with DC's "approval" when it comes to warranty issues.



As for me, DC (and the API) can make my choices concerning my truck right after they start making my payments for me.

 

[amsoilman]

This post is forMike Ellis.

Extended drain intervals... hmmm. Wonder if my aversion to them is due to my urge to keep things clean, or because of old memories of Dad whizzing by the service stations at 80 mph while my back teeth were floating?? I'm just glad he had never heard of bypass filters back then. . !

Here is a picture taken of my valve train. The picture was taken when the engine had 129,000 miles and the oil has only been drained once since installing the Amsoil synthetic and the By-Pass oil system and that was done when the engine had 8,000 miles!



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[amsoilman]

Steve,

The two Amsoil Diesel Synthetics also carry the latest API ratings of CI-4/SL as well just to keep everythng in perpsective.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Kimrey]

Good Morning, I see that I struck a nerve last night. Schaeffers is API certified, If I have to take a picture of it on the bottle, I will. That link will let you browse the whole web sight. I'm not trying to sell it, and I'm not a dealer, I just like the stuff!!



Kimrey

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by gsbrockman

Pit Bull :

I work at an S&S Tire in Lexington, KY. Apollo Oil in Winchester, KY. is our supplier of case goods and bulk oil. I was told that the old Premium Blue 2000 was being discontinued and that the 5W40 Extreme was its replacement. I've never had any problem with the old handy-dandy 15W40 Rotella-T using OE filters and 4000 mile change intervals. Our cost on the 5W40 Extreme is $14. 40 per gallon. $39. 60 in oil (11 quarts) excluding the filter would make for a quite expensive oil change; however, I may try it this winter. Shell also has a new 5W40 full synthetic as well. Hope this helps !

gsbrockman, I'm with you, been using Rotella T, but I thought I would try a synthetic for this winter if it was easily available locally. I will give my Cummins dealer here in town a try, if they don't have it I will stick with Rotella T 15w40. Thanks for the input. If your cost on the extreme is $14. 40, then retail will be around $20. 00 or more . Lets see I can get the Rotella for around $5. 50 a gallon, so the Extreme would be almost 4 times more expensive WOW, wonder if it would be 4 times better for my engine? NOT

 

[lschultz]

:-{} :--) :-{} Where is Doc?We need him for the last word.