Amsoil not API certified

[dresslered]

Robin-

Somehow you always have a way of lowering blood pressure by at least 20-psi!

 

[lschultz]

And it goes on and on an on an on an on:-{}

 

[aconnors]

Does anyone have a CTD with high mileage (over 300,000) and has used synthetic oil and can comment on the benefits (engine wear, power, smoke)? In my gasser with 150,000mi the cylinders still look new using Dino oil (whatever was on sale). Convince me this synthetic stuff is worth the extra costs over the life of the truck.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by aconnors
Does anyone have a CTD with high mileage (over 300,000) and has used synthetic oil and can comment on the benefits (engine wear, power, smoke)? In my gasser with 150,000mi the cylinders still look new using Dino oil (whatever was on sale). Convince me this synthetic stuff is worth the extra costs over the life of the truck.

No one can convince you. *You* have to do the research yourself, figure out which questions need to be asked, find the answers, and then decide which way to go.

There are a lot of variables involved. The narrowest viewpoint involves looking at the engine and *only* the engine. If that is your viewpoint, then use the cheapest oil you can find and change it and the filter every 3000 miles, because that will be the solution that best matches that viewpoint.

Now, should you, instead, decide to integrate ancillary factors, you could consider:

• the cost of disposing of all that waste oil
• the cost of excess pollutants exhausted into the air
• the cost of extra fuel used
• the cost of manufacturing and transporting all that extra engine lube
• the cost of lower quality resulting from gigantic-scale production
• how long you expect to keep the vehicle
• how well organized and regimented you are, to remember to deal with these periodic things that pop up all too soon
• the overall cost to society in general of such large-scale use of potentially limited resources

These, and other factors, *could* induce you to decide that using synthetic lubes with bypass filtration and oil analysis is worth the extra initial expense out of *your* pocket.
But *I* cannot convince you to switch, nor will I try. All I can do is present you with documented facts and personal experience. It is up to you to decide.

Fest3er

 

[Pit Bull]

I have vacillated all over the place on this one. I wanted to run synthetic because I thought it was a better oil and would be better for my CTD. But price became a factor. I was willing to spend 2x's as much for the synthetic, that I thought I could buy at Wally world for around $12. 00 a gallon. No such luck. Where I live Delvac 1 synthetic cost $22. 00 per gallon and Rotella T synthetic costs over $18. 00 per gallon, can't even get the new Premium Blue Extreme. Fester your right you got to look at what is best for "you". I just bought good old Rotella T 15w40 and will continue to change it every 5K miles. It only cost me around $6. 00 per gallon. I can't see spending 3 to almost 4 times as much for synthetic. If I wasn't a retired guy on the old fixed income I might of gone for it "but" I am so I'm not. It is a personal decision and I don't think there is a wrong answer. Thanks everyone for the information.

 

[Peter Campbell]

About all those "costs" to society using more frequent than factory dino oil changes. What makes synthetic so expensive? How much raw material is used per quart of synthetic compared to dino oil? How many BTU per pound in total energy are required to produce synthetic VS dino oil? So it is not cut and dried that you are benefiting the world by using synthetic oil. Just like other "environmental" attitudes. Look at life cycle of your solution compared to the life cycle of what you are comparing it against. In Commiefornia they want zero emission vehicles. No such thing. Electric cars- Somewhere there is a battery plant with lead or cadmium downind/downstream- That car is resposible for a fraction of that pollution. Solar cells last say 30 years. When you count the hazardous waste to make them a properly run coal fired plant hurts the environment less. But it does not occur in california. The pollution is in mexico, or china or the electricity is made in nevada or washington. Zero emissions ?? where??. Someone built a solar house. When you figure what it took to smelt the triple glazed windows, Mix the hundreds of cubic yard of cement ( remember portland is made in a kiln), trucking this heavy material ( #2 oil),making the collectors (copper smelting), trucking the heavy windows. This house could not save any energy because it was all spent building it. Everyone has a point of view. Mine is that most amsoil is delivered in small quantites from a sinle factory. The wal mart or parts store gets several hundred cases at a time most likely regionally produced. Oil recycling is a mature business and the oil can be re-refined into lube oil or fuel oil. So quart per quart on the delivery side dino oil saves energy. I do not know the BTU/LBM TOTAL energy required for dino refining oil compared to synthetics but I think synthetics are re ore difficult $$$ to produce hence more BTU/LBM. And the mileage savings are assuming switching oil viscosities. If you stay with the factory reccomended viscosity I do not think the mileage is that much different. So the Wail that you are hurting the environment by not using amsoil is Commieforia mentality and only looking at one side of the equation.

 

[Texas Diesel]

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Peter Campbell
... So it is not cuta nd dried that you are benefiting the world by using synthetic oil. Just like other "environmental" attitudes. Look at life cycle of your solution compared to the life cycle of what you are comparing it against. ...

Everyone has a point of view. Mine is that most amsoil is delivered in small quantites from a sinle factory. The wal mart or parts store gets several hundred cases at a time most likely regionally produced. Oil recycling is a mature business and the oil can be re-refined into lube oil or fuel oil. So quart per quart on the delivery side dino oil saves energy. ...

So the Wail that you are hurting the environment by not using amsoil is Commieforia mentality and only looking at one side of the equation.

No, it is not cut and dried. All factors have to be weighed and considered.

And considering life cycle, in 55,000 miles, I have used about 20 quarts of oil, since I employ bypass filtration and oil analysis. Someone performing changes every 3000 miles will have used around 200 quarts of oil - ten times more than I have used. That's 50 gallons compared to my 5.

Now expand that to 1,000,000 cars each driven 100,000 miles over 8 years, changing the oil every 3000 miles. That works out to 42,000,000 gallons of waste oil. Now consider if those 1,000,000 vehicles had used bypass filtration and oil analysis. They would have used around 5,000,000 gallons of oil - eliminating the need for 35,000,000 gallons of oil.

Do you still think the aggregate numbers are insignificant?

As to Wailing, perhaps that statement should be re-worded. Calmy and politely noting that environmental concerns need proper consideration along with all other factors is not "Wailing". Noting that we individuals really are members of a large society, and that we should consider the impact our activities can have on society in general is not "Wailing".

As I've said, the choices we make are our own to make. A large purpose of these fora is to provide us with solid, factual data so that we can make *informed* decisions.

A wise man verifies the strength of the early-spring pond ice before he skates on it, even though his neighbor told him it was fine.

Fest3er

 

[Peter Campbell]

Oil recycling is a mature business-as you quoted me- the 42,000,000. gallons goes back in-just as used amsoil ( if you bring the old filter to the recycle center ) So the loss is only the reprocessing/ re refining waste percentage. Say 20%- (fuel oil end product ) so the waste is not 42,000,000 but 20% of it or: 8. 4 million gallons- but using the 35 million saved is 7 million saved. Again how many gallons of oil (or BTU'S ) go into this oil compared to dino oil. High end processes are not cheap in $ or in BTU's. That question was not answered. Is any of this extra energy seen when recycled compared to dino oil? Maybe whine was too harsh. To trash people for environmental irresposibility is a little harsh. I've heard a lot of resons that amsoil is great. this is the first time I was told I was essentilly irresponsibele for using dino oil. Again where is the full data. you have not given it. Just the user side of the energy equation. where is the producer side. How much oil is consumed crating and shipping 12 and 24 quarts shipments by small inneficient trucks ( UPS or USPS ) compared to 300 case shipments by large box trucks. How much to produce the product. Where is the data?? I do not know- but until someone says how many 55 gallon drums of energy equivalent go into each drum of synthetic compared to the energy of refining dino oil no one can prove or disprove either point of view. The 42,000,000 gallons of dino oil throughpu may take 84,000,000 gallons to make it GUESSES?? petro engineers?? if the 7,000,000 gallons of synthetic take 70,000,000 gallons of oil energy to produce then where are the savings- they would be essentially non existent. So give us the one needed fact to make an honest comparison . OBTW I do agree 3K oil changes are a waste. I run to 7500 and send off the drain sample. Quality control on engine and oil. If there is an internal anti-freeze or fuel leak 3K will not help. Detecting is what helps.

 

[amsoilman]

I do not know for sure how many oil re-cycling plants there are today, but a few years back, maybe 4, I read in one of the oil news magazines there were only 4 plant in the entire USA that did re-cycle oil into engine oils. The article reported that most used oil is used for heating using used oil in heaters specifically designed for such.



Personally, I have used the Amsoil brand synthetic along with their by-pass filtering system and oil analysis in my CTD for nearly 150,000 miles, and only drained the oil one time since installing the synthetic.



In that time I have used about 20 quarts for topping off, and the oil filters have been changed 4 times. These figures do not include the time I drained the oil.



Based on this, I would say I have saved many dollars, and the engine is in perfect condition! And how do I know? Oil analysis, wouldn't be without it! To each his/her own... ... ... ... . works for me.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by amsoilman







Personally, I have used the Amsoil brand synthetic along with their by-pass filtering system and oil analysis in my CTD for nearly 150,000 miles, and only drained the oil one time since installing the synthetic.



Based on this, I would say I have saved many dollars, and the engine is in perfect condition! And how do I know? Oil analysis, wouldn't be without it! To each his/her own... ... ... ... . works for me.



Wayne

amsoilman

Wayne, I think what your doing is the best way to get value from synthetic oil in our trucks. You can't do it changing every 7,500 miles. My conclusion is that if your not going to do it your way, you are better off using dino and changing based on DC's recommendation. That is unless $$$ is not a consideration.

 

[Texas Diesel]

The engine will last 1,000,000 miles (I read about one that did) with dino oil and normal service, why fool with high $ synthetics, then TRY to *justify* extended drain intervals to keep the cost of synthetic motor oil plus all the oil analysis' in line with the cost of dino oil and regular changes.



Lets see, oil analysis, $20, syn oil $9/qt, funky filters ?? PLUS you have to change the OEM filter at the same intervals intervals (which is most of the cost with a dino oil change)



--OR--





Oil @ $1. 50/qt, filter $10 and the feeling of CLEAN & FRESH oil in the ole Cummins.



Do whatever works for you, but *I* dont have any warranty issues (engine) because I am following the requirement for API compliant oil AND the warranty requirement for CHANGING the oil.



I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong or bad just it is not warranty friendly.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Peter Campbell
... Again how many gallons of oil (or BTU'S ) go into this oil compared to dino oil. High end processes are not cheap in $ or in BTU's. That question was not answered. ...

I have a query in to Amsoil about the energy required to produce synthetic lubes vs. that required to produce dino lubes.

As to why synthetic costs so much more than dino oil (asked in another post, or even a different thread entirely!), perhaps a fair analogy would be to compare the price, quality and durability of SK tools, for example, with the majority of tools imported from the People's Republic of China. Or go back 40 years and compare the price, quality and durability of domestic products with those of products imported from Japan. Or compare the price, quality and durability of a $100 Schwinn bicycle with that of a $2500 Trek.

Fest3er

 

[Peter Campbell]

I was only going on about energy use and environmental impact- your topic. Not $ or where it was produced. Please stay on your original topic. If the higher price involved paying for excessive energy to run the production process, then some of that energy savings( gallons of oil )was bought by energy consumption ( gallons of oil). Where did PRC or cheap tools come into this?? I want and others want to make sound decisions. That cannot be done with inadequate or erroneous data and analysis of only one side of a process. Sound data has yet to be provided as to the life cycle energy cost of synthetic. That was the original complaint against admittedly excess ( wastefull) oil changes in autos and trucks every 3K. There should be some petroleum process engineers out there that can at least tell us the energy cost of DINO lube oil refining. Purer raw materials and the processes to get them there are expensive in terms of energy. Whether it is six pack joe refiner or child slave labor in PRC making the same oil the process is the process. Energy equivalents and chemistry do not chage across borders. Units of measure and quality might. If the data is not available then it is not available. Then no one knows how many gallons of oil equivalant energy went into each quart of synthetic over that of dino. Then no one can for sure say they are actually saving anything overall. And no one could criticize the decison for using dino oil at factory recommended intervals wasting energy or oil. Where is the hard data??? Or do we hear sales oriented obfuscation; when asked a hard question bring up unamericanisms like tools from PRC or foriegn labor. When the original question was to look at environmental impacts of the path you took.

 

[Pit Bull]

I'm glad you guys are looking out for the environment I'm just interested in bang for the buck and diminishing returns for the $$'s invested. Personal stuff. I do have to admit that your discussion is interesting. Could you guys also figure out how we can attain world peace while your waiting on the data for this oil problem?

 

[Peter Campbell]

ROTFLMAO! good to lighten it up. No if I really cared deeply about the environment, I would NEVER use my truck empty. I would have a honda hybrid- or that VW car with 235 miles/gallon when commuting. I would also die the first time I made a driver error resulting in an accident. I believe if the resources are scarce, then the $ to buy it go up and we conserve- Simple. If I choose to drive a CTD and fuel it with money I earned- That is my choice. If I choose to trade $ for gallons that is also my choice (am I talking about fuel buying or lube oil buying???- yes ) . I do not think I am being irresposible or damaging the environment. If I am causing environmental damage that is OK- There is not a human endeavor that does not have an environmental impact. I refuse to stop breathing due to the CO2 I exhale ( an environmental impact ). I will not stop enjoying my truck either. I am always on the lookout for a world class piece-- Oh you said world peace!

 

[amsoilman]

TexasDiesel,

Lets see, oil analysis, $20, syn oil $9/qt, funky filters ?? PLUS you have to change the OEM filter at the same intervals intervals (which is most of the cost with a dino oil change)

Several TDR issues back (issue 26) I wrote an article that covered my first 100,000 miles on my truck.



The figures I used were Retail Figures using Cummins Blue synthetic oil and Mopar brand Oil filters



This is how it came out based on

4000 mile oil drains for the conventional NORMAL drain interval and 11 Quarts oil capacity.



Conventional



25 Oil changes X 11 Quarts = 275 Quarts/68. 7 Gallons

69 Gallons Cummins Blue Oil @ $8. 54 = $589. 26

25 Mopar Oil filters@ $9. 00 = $225. 00





Total cost Material only= $814. 26



Amsoil Synthetic with By-pass system



1 Oil change X 11 Quarts = 11 Quarts/2. 75 Gallons

3 Gallons of Amsoil @ $18. 20 = $54. 60

1 By-pass System = $159. 00 (But I can re-use it on another truck)

3 By-Pass spinon filters = $84. 00

3 Full-flow filters = $50. 70

10 Oil Analysis kits @ $10. 50 = $105. 00

3 Gallons make-up Oil @ 18. 20 = $54. 60



Total Cost = $507. 90



The big difference here is that I was getting Oil analysis! This not only tells the condition of the oil, but better yet the condition of the engine, as well as any contaminants, such as fuel, water, glycol, acids, or dirt.



Remember too, that the prices quoted are retail prices!

I am a dealer, so the costs associated with the Amsoil products would be much less.



As you say, TexasDiesel use whatever you please. I do, and I have never had the dealer question the way I do it, and it was in for some repairs and TSB's when it was under warranty and they new what I was doing, and still do, so there was never any question on my warranty. As a matter of fact, my TCC went out at 69,000 miles (just under the 70,000 mile warranty) and they replaced the TCC with a BD TC, and re-filled the transmission with Amsoil Synthetic ATF, which I supplied.





Best Regards,



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Texas Diesel]

All I said in my original post was that AMSOIL WAS NOT API certified. It still isnt.



And that your engine warranty REQUIRES API certified oil.

It still does.



My choice is still dino oil and regular changes, nothing I've seen in this thread has changed my mind. Infact, there is considerable support staying with regular oil and regular servicing, and they know their Cummins will outlast them.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The one *SIGNIFICANT FACT* Amsoil fans LOVE to overlook in the above sort of $$$ comparisons, is that SYNTHETICS *do not* have the market cornered on extended drain intervals!



HERE, let me REPEAT that!



SYNTHETICS DO NOT HAVE THE MARKET CORNERED ON EXTENDED DRAIN INTERVALS!



It's been shown in past threads that conventional dino oils can EASILY be extended in drain intervals as well, out to about 32,000 miles, and STILL be well within proper lube specs!



NOW, like it or NOT, DC - nor ANY automaker *I* am aware of, authorize extended oil-change intervals, regardless of whether dino OR synthetics are used - MOST, if not ALL domestic makers STILL specify the SAME oil change mileage!



Yeah - we all know (we're NOT dummies ya know!) that using DC recommended oil change intervals for the dino oils, and some arbitrary EXTENDED interval for the synthetics HAS to be done to make the synthetics LOOK better by comparison - but it's not very honest...



Jeeze guys aren't ya confident enough of the QUALITY of the synthetics, to NOT feel as tho' ya hafta stack the deck TOO?



SO, when making these sort of comparisons, instead of using rather slanted methods, let's try a bit harder to keep the playing field level, and if yer gonna use extended changes for the synthetics, have the integrity and be honest enough to do the SAME for the dino oils...



Wanna re-calculate the above "demonstration"?

 

[Hammer]

AGAIN.....

I'll ask a simple question and make the same comment I have already echoed more than once in these wonderful threads...



Why are you guys continually playing the warranty white knight stuff as most of those here that have already bashed Amsoil in this thread HAVE no warranty left due to modifications on their respective rides and some have even gone as far to admit the warranties are null and void. .



Boy there are lots of BAD things to void the warranties of your motors according to D-C and not just the API deal either. You gentlemen will not accept any data that has already been posted by the users on their respective findings in extended drain intervals, you just go back to the same old song and dance.



So if the Amsoil not being API certified is a problem for you and you prefer dino oil,by all means run it,its your truck not mine. I base my decisions on real life data and what I have seen in the use of this product as most who use it do. I myself have seen the results of this oil in many applications I use it in and it has saved me alot of headaches and money in parts that would have failed with conventional oils. Ever see what dino oil looks like after a radiator gets blocked from dirt in a sprint car in a 30 lap feature and the temps,oil and water go off the scale??,I have and I also know in the same instance the number of finishes we have using synthetics that do not succumb to breakdown when the temps go off the scales. WHAT,this does not relate,why certainly it does. Think of it,middle of the Mohave,110 degrees + and towing your 10,000lb+ trailer,water temps soaring as are the oil temps,your dino oil in the motor,how long can you trust it when oil temps get near or over 250 degrees??.



I've seen the benefits of synthetics in use in our trucks and the larger n-14's I drive at work(yep,sorry gang I am part of our companies commitment to Cummins and other vendors tests) in all conditions. My choices are made by product performance and not by D-C brainwashing. Like I said before,your truck your choice,mine has been made... ... . Andy