-
TDR Magazine subscribers receive more than the magazine! You also gain additional forum privileges!
Details here: TDR Privileges
Subscribe to TDR Magazine here: https://www.tdr-online.com/
Amsoil threads
- Thread starter danandamy
- Start Date
Attention: TDR Forum Junkies To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.
Thanks, TDR Staff
- Status
Dan has DEFINATELY had some good ones in here the last few years.
Dan, it would have been a BETTER joke if it would not had been so Anti-Amsoil, it needed a dig at the Antis to be more PC.
Keep in mind, the Antis barge in on any thread complaining if anyone mentions the product, and whine about another Amsoil thread.
Go figger.
Dan, it would have been a BETTER joke if it would not had been so Anti-Amsoil, it needed a dig at the Antis to be more PC.
Keep in mind, the Antis barge in on any thread complaining if anyone mentions the product, and whine about another Amsoil thread.
Go figger.
I use Amsoil in my front and rear diffs and transmission. Never noticed one bit of difference. No MPG increase. I think the other stuff was lubricating as well. But I am just a crazy farmer. I never get into these Amsoil threads because well... ... . I just don't care. I put in anything once.
StakeMan:
I think the answer to that is when I was a smaller person, like 12, we did have pi$$ing contest. I usually won but I quit it cause I grew up. Some of us just haven't.
Still like Amsoil though.
I think the answer to that is when I was a smaller person, like 12, we did have pi$$ing contest. I usually won but I quit it cause I grew up. Some of us just haven't.
Still like Amsoil though.
Why?
Because it always seems the antis just have to rush in and throw their misinformed views on things they know nothing about, and generally just bash a good company unfarely.
A thread will be going along just fine, and one of the antis will throw a slam out, and I go in and defend it. Sorry.
Gene
Because it always seems the antis just have to rush in and throw their misinformed views on things they know nothing about, and generally just bash a good company unfarely.
A thread will be going along just fine, and one of the antis will throw a slam out, and I go in and defend it. Sorry.
Gene
To answer your question, StakeMan, it degenerates into a less than friendly exchange when anyone attacks a good product, or what many of us know to be a good product. And does so with less-than-ethical methods, such as an extreme number of posts that twist words around, and find a hundred different ways to say the same thing. Some people reading these forums are obviously so focused on the subject content of the posts, that they fail to sit back and take in the big picture, and make an effort to discern the nature and intent of the person who started the thread. The malicious nature of that person is only obvious to those reading with an open mind, or to those who have a financial stake in the product that is being denigratred.
The shame is not in the fact that this person attacked a fine product unfairly, but in the fact that precious few of you called him on it. Today it's Amsoil. Tomorrow, what product will it be?
This is why the big vendors stay away from the TDR.
Instead of an intelligent exchange of valuable technical information, all we have now is an overabundance of expressed opinions.
Letting this kind of thing continue will only keep the real big dogs from jumping in here and sharing information with us.
That's too bad. The early days of the TDR were quite enjoyable for me and others. I doubt I'll be seeing the quality of those days again.
The shame is not in the fact that this person attacked a fine product unfairly, but in the fact that precious few of you called him on it. Today it's Amsoil. Tomorrow, what product will it be?
This is why the big vendors stay away from the TDR.
Instead of an intelligent exchange of valuable technical information, all we have now is an overabundance of expressed opinions.
Letting this kind of thing continue will only keep the real big dogs from jumping in here and sharing information with us.
That's too bad. The early days of the TDR were quite enjoyable for me and others. I doubt I'll be seeing the quality of those days again.
That is exactly what I'm talking about Briar. The TDR is suppose to be an open exchange of ideas and information. That can lead to heated discussions. I expect that to happen. My concern is that in the last year these kinds of discussions have become common. I for one am tired of this. To the point that I may let my subscription to the TDR lapse.
YES AMSOIL IS API and SAE certified...at least that's what the compant prints on ever
It has been brought to my attention that the statement I made above is innaccurate. I DO have a bottle of the product I was referring to and IT is certified... as I stated. However, apparently ALL of AMSOILS products are NOT certified so the statement "EVERY SINGLE BOTTLE" was not accurate. I hope I didn't upset anyone, or mislead anyone with my innaccuracy... I appoligize. Ed3
It has been brought to my attention that the statement I made above is innaccurate. I DO have a bottle of the product I was referring to and IT is certified... as I stated. However, apparently ALL of AMSOILS products are NOT certified so the statement "EVERY SINGLE BOTTLE" was not accurate. I hope I didn't upset anyone, or mislead anyone with my innaccuracy... I appoligize. Ed3
Egarwood - I'm not personally familiar with each and every Amsoil product = would you mind telling us WHICH Amsoil product you were stating you were looking at that DID have the API certification?
Which THEN brings up yet ANOTHER question:
WHY is AMSOIL so resistant and indifferent to API certification on their MOTOR OIL, but DO have other selected products API certified? If anything, it would SEEM that their motor oil would be the big seller and profit line - yet they pay the money for the less profitable stuff to be API certified rather than the motor oil?
Doesn't make sense to me
Which THEN brings up yet ANOTHER question:
WHY is AMSOIL so resistant and indifferent to API certification on their MOTOR OIL, but DO have other selected products API certified? If anything, it would SEEM that their motor oil would be the big seller and profit line - yet they pay the money for the less profitable stuff to be API certified rather than the motor oil?
Doesn't make sense to me
Well Gary I dont know either. Someone made a reference to UL in one of these threads somewhere, and it reminded me of the products we make.
We dont bother with UL approval. Yet all our products are designed to exceed UL specs. Why? Because our customers dont demand it. Our marketing folks have determined the cost of the initial approval, plus the follow on inspections and all that is not worth the few extra units we MAY sell. So we simply dont bother because it does not make business sense.
Yet at the same time we get the European CE mark. Why? because they do demand it. The loss of sales would be significant.
Not that this applies to Amsoil, as it would seem they could sell enough additional oil to over come the costs. Maybe they are happy with how much 15w-40 HDDM they sell and are not interested in more customers. Really dont have a clue, just upping the post count.
We dont bother with UL approval. Yet all our products are designed to exceed UL specs. Why? Because our customers dont demand it. Our marketing folks have determined the cost of the initial approval, plus the follow on inspections and all that is not worth the few extra units we MAY sell. So we simply dont bother because it does not make business sense.
Yet at the same time we get the European CE mark. Why? because they do demand it. The loss of sales would be significant.
Not that this applies to Amsoil, as it would seem they could sell enough additional oil to over come the costs. Maybe they are happy with how much 15w-40 HDDM they sell and are not interested in more customers. Really dont have a clue, just upping the post count.
Which Ones?
Gary, and anyone else who cares... First off let me say that I am NOT the kind of guy who will blindly follow a product simply because I sell it. Fact of the matter is ... the amount of Amsoil products I sell a year come to about a $1000 order ... per year. This is enough to keep my two Dodges, a friends 69 Chevelle 396SS, and my uncles 71 MACK Tri-axle Dump, Amsoiled-up. The people I buy for,choose to spend the extra money on Amsoil products because, first, they took my word for it that Amsoil lowers operating temperarture, and increases fuel mileage. Based on these two obsevations alone I recommended Amsoil to them. They continue to buy it from me because they have also witnessed the above reaction a vehicle has to Amsoil. Based on these two things, and knowing just a little about the internal combustion engine... It tells me Amsoil is REDUCING ENGINE WEAR, PERIOD. THIS is why I choose to pay extra for thier product... NOT because it's certified, not because I can wait longer to drain it, not because it's more econmical, Because it does what I want REDUCE WEAR. Having said this, the only product I have that IS API CERTIFIED, is, Amsoils XL-7500 10W-30 Motor Oil... It has an API Rating of SJ/CF for 7500 Mile Drain Interval. I use this in my 97 Dodge Ram Gasser, and my freind uses it in his 69 Chevelle. The other products I use that are NOT API Certified are:
Series 3000 5W-30 HD Diesel Motor Oil. On the back of this bottle it says: API Service CH-4,CF,CF-2,SJ... This is apparently where I made my mistake, it says API Service, NOT API Certified, what the difference is I couldn't tell you. I also use Series 2000 75W-90 Gear Lube. . On the back it says:API MT-1,GL-2 thru GL-5,
Mack GO-J,GO-J PLUS, MIL-PRF-2105E. I also use Series 2000 2 Cycle Racing Oil in all my 2 cycle applications. I personally saw an increrase of 5-7 MPG in my 95 CTD when I switched THE WHOLE TRUCK over to Amsoil at about 30,000 miles. That being said I hope this helps with any puzzlement going on out there. Ed3
Gary, and anyone else who cares... First off let me say that I am NOT the kind of guy who will blindly follow a product simply because I sell it. Fact of the matter is ... the amount of Amsoil products I sell a year come to about a $1000 order ... per year. This is enough to keep my two Dodges, a friends 69 Chevelle 396SS, and my uncles 71 MACK Tri-axle Dump, Amsoiled-up. The people I buy for,choose to spend the extra money on Amsoil products because, first, they took my word for it that Amsoil lowers operating temperarture, and increases fuel mileage. Based on these two obsevations alone I recommended Amsoil to them. They continue to buy it from me because they have also witnessed the above reaction a vehicle has to Amsoil. Based on these two things, and knowing just a little about the internal combustion engine... It tells me Amsoil is REDUCING ENGINE WEAR, PERIOD. THIS is why I choose to pay extra for thier product... NOT because it's certified, not because I can wait longer to drain it, not because it's more econmical, Because it does what I want REDUCE WEAR. Having said this, the only product I have that IS API CERTIFIED, is, Amsoils XL-7500 10W-30 Motor Oil... It has an API Rating of SJ/CF for 7500 Mile Drain Interval. I use this in my 97 Dodge Ram Gasser, and my freind uses it in his 69 Chevelle. The other products I use that are NOT API Certified are:
Series 3000 5W-30 HD Diesel Motor Oil. On the back of this bottle it says: API Service CH-4,CF,CF-2,SJ... This is apparently where I made my mistake, it says API Service, NOT API Certified, what the difference is I couldn't tell you. I also use Series 2000 75W-90 Gear Lube. . On the back it says:API MT-1,GL-2 thru GL-5,
Mack GO-J,GO-J PLUS, MIL-PRF-2105E. I also use Series 2000 2 Cycle Racing Oil in all my 2 cycle applications. I personally saw an increrase of 5-7 MPG in my 95 CTD when I switched THE WHOLE TRUCK over to Amsoil at about 30,000 miles. That being said I hope this helps with any puzzlement going on out there. Ed3
Egarwood thanks for your very thorough response - I *do* appreciate it!
Something else I have noticed when taking time to read oil container labels, is that pretty much all the "heavy hitters" add the statement that their diesel service oils "meet Cummins, Caterpillar, Mack, etc. ,etc. spec # such-and-such... " That, in ADDITION to API certification - so I assume that these engine makers establish/publish strict lubricant requirements and standards of their own. I wonder if those standards are stricter, or looser than the API's, and if Amsoil provides any similar statement on THEIR oils in place of the API certification? Perhaps Amsoil meets specific engine manufacturer specs, even if they don't carry API certification? I wonder what differences there ARE between engine manufacturer specs and API?
Something else I have noticed when taking time to read oil container labels, is that pretty much all the "heavy hitters" add the statement that their diesel service oils "meet Cummins, Caterpillar, Mack, etc. ,etc. spec # such-and-such... " That, in ADDITION to API certification - so I assume that these engine makers establish/publish strict lubricant requirements and standards of their own. I wonder if those standards are stricter, or looser than the API's, and if Amsoil provides any similar statement on THEIR oils in place of the API certification? Perhaps Amsoil meets specific engine manufacturer specs, even if they don't carry API certification? I wonder what differences there ARE between engine manufacturer specs and API?
is that all you got...?
Enough is enough guys. Let it go, both sides. This thread was started as a joke, and look what happen to it. :{ :{ :{ :{
Andrew
Enough is enough guys. Let it go, both sides. This thread was started as a joke, and look what happen to it. :{ :{ :{ :{
Andrew
Gary, since you asked, here's what's on the label of the Amsoil 5w-30 HDD oil:
SAE 5W-30
API Service SL, SJ, SH, CH-4, CF-2, CF
ILSAC GF-3, GF-2
Ford M2C153-G, M2C171-C
GM-4718M, 9986137
Chrysler MS-6395J, MS-9767
DB 229. 3, 229. 1, 228. 3, 228. 2
VW 502. 00/505. 00
EMA LRG-1
GLOBAL DHD-1
Cummins CES20076, CES20077
Mack EO-M+
Detroit Diesel 7SE270
Volvo VDS-2
MTU Type 2
MAN 271, M3275
Scania LDF
ALLISON C-4
Sorry TxDieselKid,
I was typing and didn't see your plea for mercy in time.
You remind me of the movie "Clockwork Orange. " The guy started out liking sex and violence - until they clamped his eyes open and make him watch it 24 hours a day. By the end, he couldn't stand it any more.
Think maybe we're getting that way about oil discussions?
I was typing and didn't see your plea for mercy in time.
You remind me of the movie "Clockwork Orange. " The guy started out liking sex and violence - until they clamped his eyes open and make him watch it 24 hours a day. By the end, he couldn't stand it any more.
Think maybe we're getting that way about oil discussions?
Manufacturers Specs
This is a very interesting question. . and one I don't have an answer for, but maybe the answer would put to rest alot of the bickering going on here on TDR. I know my last post was long-winded, and I appologize,but as before since I have some of the products in question in front of me, and feel I am nuetral in the debate, I will post what it is printed on the back of the bottle of
Series 3000 5W-30 HD Diesel Motor Oil... since this is probably of most interest. Here goes:
SAE 5W-30
API Service CH-4,CF,CF-2,SJ
For Gasoline or Diesel Engines
Recommended for applications requiring the following specifications:
Energy Conserving
Fuel Efficient
MIL-L-2104G, Caterpillar TO-3, Allison C-4, Mack EO-L, EO-L Plus, EO-M, M. A. N. 271, Mercedes Benz AG 227. 1, AG 228. 1, 228. 3, Scania Long Drain, Volvo VDS, VDS-2, VW 505. 00, ILSAC GF-1,GF-2
Compatible with petroleum and synthetic motor oils.
It also shows a wear scar test done by an independant lab in January 1996
Four-ball wear test (ASTM D4172B)
(40kg. pressure@150*C, 1800 rpm for 1 hour duration)
Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30... . 0. 391
Delvac 1 Synthetic 5W-40... . 0. 431
Delo 400 15W-40... . 0. 599
Rotella T 15W-40... . 0. 683
CumminsPremiumBlue15W-40... . 0. 707
Wear Scar Diameter, mm.
If anyone knows if Amsoil gets their oils tested by the manufacturers or if #'s above mean they've met or exceeded the manufacturers specs for thier recommended oils, jump in and show us some data. Thanks Ed3
This is a very interesting question. . and one I don't have an answer for, but maybe the answer would put to rest alot of the bickering going on here on TDR. I know my last post was long-winded, and I appologize,but as before since I have some of the products in question in front of me, and feel I am nuetral in the debate, I will post what it is printed on the back of the bottle of
Series 3000 5W-30 HD Diesel Motor Oil... since this is probably of most interest. Here goes:
SAE 5W-30
API Service CH-4,CF,CF-2,SJ
For Gasoline or Diesel Engines
Recommended for applications requiring the following specifications:
Energy Conserving
Fuel Efficient
MIL-L-2104G, Caterpillar TO-3, Allison C-4, Mack EO-L, EO-L Plus, EO-M, M. A. N. 271, Mercedes Benz AG 227. 1, AG 228. 1, 228. 3, Scania Long Drain, Volvo VDS, VDS-2, VW 505. 00, ILSAC GF-1,GF-2
Compatible with petroleum and synthetic motor oils.
It also shows a wear scar test done by an independant lab in January 1996
Four-ball wear test (ASTM D4172B)
(40kg. pressure@150*C, 1800 rpm for 1 hour duration)
Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30... . 0. 391
Delvac 1 Synthetic 5W-40... . 0. 431
Delo 400 15W-40... . 0. 599
Rotella T 15W-40... . 0. 683
CumminsPremiumBlue15W-40... . 0. 707
Wear Scar Diameter, mm.
If anyone knows if Amsoil gets their oils tested by the manufacturers or if #'s above mean they've met or exceeded the manufacturers specs for thier recommended oils, jump in and show us some data. Thanks Ed3
EGarwood,
I will do my best to show you what is going on with the labeling. Glad you have a small stake in the oil biz and you stated you have an open mind.
First, I think you know the difference in "meets API specs" and actually being API certified, but in case you dont let me tell ya...
"Meets API specs" is an opinion of Amsoil that the oil will meet all the specification set forth from the API. These specifications include real -time engine testing for verification that the oil will perform as required. The 'rub' begins when Amsoil states that they do not do actual engine testing. They have stated that they do no such testing. They do bench top tests like the four ball wear scar test (which, BTW was originally developed for lubricating greases, not engine oil) Second, part of the API licensing or certification process is to make sure the oil stays consistant from bottle to bottle. They have a strict auditing process to make sure that oil marketers adhere to the consistancy from bottle to bottle. From Amsoils own admission... Amsoil does make tweaks to the oil that would move the oil out of spec.
Another 'opinion' of Amsoil is that it is approved for all the manufacturers listed on the back of the bottle. That 5w/30 oil is NOT approved from ANY of the manufacturers listed on the bottle.
Many manufacturers do extensive oil testing with real engines and they decide which oils are approved and which are not.
Example: The Mack EO-M plus spec on Amsoils bottle clearly leads you to believe the oil is suitable for use in a MACK engine requiring that specification. The next 'rub' is that that particular oil from Amsoil is NOT approved from MACK at all. MACK has either tested the oil and it failed or Amsoil did not bother to submit the oil for testing. The funny thing is... Amsoil did have one oil it offers approved for EO-M plus and it is the blended oil with the product code of PCO.
The next thing I would like to bring up is the "energy conserving" part of the label. "Energy Conserving" is another specification from the API. In order for an oil to have the "energy conserving" API starburst is to submit the oil to the API and prove the oil is in fact energy conserving. Amsoil not only wont get the API licensing on the oil they forgo the energy conserving portion as well. Another 'rub'. Amsoil is allowed by law to have the text "meets API specs" and "energy conserving" as long as they do not have the API donut or API starbust labels.
Another example of Amsoil twisting and saying an oil is approved for an engine it is not, is the Detroit Diesel label on the back of the HDD 15w/40 oil. This oil is NOT approved by Detroit for any of their engines. Not even one of them. Yet Amsoil is allowed to hold the "opinion" that the oil will meet the spec. If it will or not has yet to be determined by the real engine tests required by the manufacturer.
The four ball wear scar test is just abench top test that is run for one hour. The real engine tests the manufacturers run last over some 300 hours in many cases and really test the oil to see what actual wear it makes in an engine. Not a scar measured in a one hour bench test. This wear scar test is rediculous when put next to a real engine test in a controlled environment.
The Cummins test 20077 last 300 hours in some very tough conditions. First all the parts that wear are weighed to see their original mass. The engine test is performed and the engine is dis-assembled and the wear parts are re-weighed again. If the oil passes or fails is determined how much weight they parts have lost. Its an extremly fair test for any oil. How much mass is lost from each componenet is how well the oil performed in a real engine.
Amsoil does no engine testing and publishes no engine testing data to show how well their oil peforms against others for the consumer to see. They dont even particiaspte in the manufacturers programs like the API.
Hope this sheds some light on why I and others are insistant on having some real engine test data from Amsoil. I have asked for it from every single Amsoil salesman and never received a thing.
It is hard to make a good decision of how well it performs or to compare it to other oils without such data.
Don~
I will do my best to show you what is going on with the labeling. Glad you have a small stake in the oil biz and you stated you have an open mind.
First, I think you know the difference in "meets API specs" and actually being API certified, but in case you dont let me tell ya...
"Meets API specs" is an opinion of Amsoil that the oil will meet all the specification set forth from the API. These specifications include real -time engine testing for verification that the oil will perform as required. The 'rub' begins when Amsoil states that they do not do actual engine testing. They have stated that they do no such testing. They do bench top tests like the four ball wear scar test (which, BTW was originally developed for lubricating greases, not engine oil) Second, part of the API licensing or certification process is to make sure the oil stays consistant from bottle to bottle. They have a strict auditing process to make sure that oil marketers adhere to the consistancy from bottle to bottle. From Amsoils own admission... Amsoil does make tweaks to the oil that would move the oil out of spec.
Another 'opinion' of Amsoil is that it is approved for all the manufacturers listed on the back of the bottle. That 5w/30 oil is NOT approved from ANY of the manufacturers listed on the bottle.
Many manufacturers do extensive oil testing with real engines and they decide which oils are approved and which are not.
Example: The Mack EO-M plus spec on Amsoils bottle clearly leads you to believe the oil is suitable for use in a MACK engine requiring that specification. The next 'rub' is that that particular oil from Amsoil is NOT approved from MACK at all. MACK has either tested the oil and it failed or Amsoil did not bother to submit the oil for testing. The funny thing is... Amsoil did have one oil it offers approved for EO-M plus and it is the blended oil with the product code of PCO.
The next thing I would like to bring up is the "energy conserving" part of the label. "Energy Conserving" is another specification from the API. In order for an oil to have the "energy conserving" API starburst is to submit the oil to the API and prove the oil is in fact energy conserving. Amsoil not only wont get the API licensing on the oil they forgo the energy conserving portion as well. Another 'rub'. Amsoil is allowed by law to have the text "meets API specs" and "energy conserving" as long as they do not have the API donut or API starbust labels.
Another example of Amsoil twisting and saying an oil is approved for an engine it is not, is the Detroit Diesel label on the back of the HDD 15w/40 oil. This oil is NOT approved by Detroit for any of their engines. Not even one of them. Yet Amsoil is allowed to hold the "opinion" that the oil will meet the spec. If it will or not has yet to be determined by the real engine tests required by the manufacturer.
The four ball wear scar test is just abench top test that is run for one hour. The real engine tests the manufacturers run last over some 300 hours in many cases and really test the oil to see what actual wear it makes in an engine. Not a scar measured in a one hour bench test. This wear scar test is rediculous when put next to a real engine test in a controlled environment.
The Cummins test 20077 last 300 hours in some very tough conditions. First all the parts that wear are weighed to see their original mass. The engine test is performed and the engine is dis-assembled and the wear parts are re-weighed again. If the oil passes or fails is determined how much weight they parts have lost. Its an extremly fair test for any oil. How much mass is lost from each componenet is how well the oil performed in a real engine.
Amsoil does no engine testing and publishes no engine testing data to show how well their oil peforms against others for the consumer to see. They dont even particiaspte in the manufacturers programs like the API.
Hope this sheds some light on why I and others are insistant on having some real engine test data from Amsoil. I have asked for it from every single Amsoil salesman and never received a thing.
It is hard to make a good decision of how well it performs or to compare it to other oils without such data.
Don~
O.K.
Its good, its thee best I know this cause you told me so and you sell it so it must be good. WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP . If this wonder oil is so great why does it not sell it self? The names have changed but the spew is the same... . no "meaner".
I will promise to go and buy this stuff if you start to PROVE anything rather than use these threads as your toilet!
Mike (still '956wheel)
Its good, its thee best I know this cause you told me so and you sell it so it must be good. WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP
. If this wonder oil is so great why does it not sell it self? The names have changed but the spew is the same... . no "meaner". I will promise to go and buy this stuff if you start to PROVE anything rather than use these threads as your toilet!
Mike (still '956wheel)
- Status
Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
Turbo Diesel Register
Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
