Amsoil.. What's the difference?

[JConley]

How is Amsoil any better than Mobile 1? Is the linear molecular chain in the Amsoil any different than the linear molecular chain in Mobil 1? If someone could tell me the difference between Amsoil and the other commercially available (i. e I can get them at Walmart) synthetics at the molecular level, this would help me determine fact from hype.

I dont want to hear about tests, past history, blah blah blah, Just the (molecular) facts.

Thanks




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98 QC 2500 2WD 12 Valve Automatic, 3. 54 Mag-Hytec transmission pan. DTT Valve Body. Wrap around black Grill Guard (BIG solid steel one. AFC controller adjusted, Mopar mud flaps, Camper package, 2001 Tow mirrors, Cat ran away, No Muff
My Mustang
My Ram
The Wrecking Crew web site for Junkyard Wars
Go Aggies!!!

 

[PAYCHECK]

Ido not believe mobil 1 is diesel rated. maybe you mean delvac?

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01 2500HD Q. C. 4X4,241HD,SLT+, SB,3. 54,5spd,jacobs e-brake,tow pack,camper pack,all black,all leather,fully loaded,htd power mirrors,htd seats,full rhino lining bed and rocker panels,265/85r16 BFG ATs ko,nerf bars,everthing black,4'' Jardine,Westach boost & EGT gauge,License plate-1 CUMN,

 

[TowPro]

Mobil 1 is CF rated. then they came out with CG-4 in 1998 to work on our trucks which have more soot thanks to the EPA causing lower compustion temps, to lower NOX.

 

[COBRAJET]

Mobil 1 does not carry both the SH and CG-4 rating. It is not suppose to be in a diesel. DELVAC is... . CJ

 

[klenger]

But where can you actually buy Delvac?

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Ken Lenger
On Order - 2001. 5 2500 QC 4X4 SWB SLT, ETC/DDX 5 Speed, 3. 55 (no antispin), camper group, trailer folding mirrors, RBR CD/Radio, LT265/75R16E AT OWL tires, trailer tow group, Patroit Blue / Agate,
Replaces 98 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8 which is for sale.
Trailite 21' Travel Trailer, ~4000 lbs loaded.

 

[1tuffram]

conleyjo,

I can't give the detailed scientific data about the different base stocks and additives used, but I can tell you not all synthetic oils are created equal. Just like petroluem oils, synthetics have "cheap" inferior grades also. If you think the $2. 00/qt Penzoil, Quaker State, etc on the shelves at Wal-mart is just as good as Amsoil, Mobil, LE, Red Line, etc you will be sadly dissapointed. I believe this is one case where you do "get what you pay for".

 

[JConley]

I am just using Mobile 1 as an example, but 1tuffram, you hit the nail on the head. What defines a cheap inferior grade? All synthetics use a linear molecular chain. How is a cheap synthetic any different from Amsoil if they share the same molecular properties?

This is just like the fuel you buy at the gas station. A friend of mine who is a Texaco distributor, made the comment to me once about "cheap" gas down the street. I informed him that his Texaco fuel came out of the same hose as the Diamond shamrock fuel at the distribution point, so what made his fuel any better. He didnt have an answer. Obviously Amsoil will have more additives added to the base stock than the cheaper synthecics (I am assuming), but additives will not add anything to the lubrication properties.

 

[BigCarl64]

Gary,

You are absolutely right. I don't believe the extra cost of those "warm and fuzzy feeling" oils are worth the cost. I read a study awhile back that was done by an independent testing company on the different oils. This study was done on cabbies in New York city, and each cab used the exact same car, and all started with new cars at the same time. After a year and thorough analysis of the oils and engines, no significant differences were found that would in any way justify the added expense of the more expensive oils. I will try to find the study and post it here.

 

[SlyBones]

So Gary,

What kind of oil do you run and how much do you pay?

I believe there is proof that 100% synthetic oils are better than petrolium based products.

Buying 100% synthetic brands at my local walmart or autoparts store cost 3. 59 - 3. 99 a qt. And we can get Amsoil 15-40 HDD&M from the group purchase site at 3. 90 a qt.

Seems to me like walmart and "warm and fuzzy" are the same price. For a similar 100% synthetic oil product.

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1997 2500 4x4, CC, Auto, 3. 54 LSD, 66K, Everything inc Leather, K&N, 4" BD cat-back, otherwise stock, Isspro Gauges(3), 285/75/16 on Alcola's, Canopy, BedLiner, and tons more.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

SLYBONES sez:

"So Gary,
What kind of oil do you run and how much do you pay?"


Last case of 6 gallons of Rotella T from Sam's club for $28 - works out to $1. 16 a quart...

"I believe there is proof that 100% synthetic oils are better than petrolium based products. "

*I* am not particularly interested in what you "believe" - only in what you can PROVE - opinions are like A$$holes - everyone's got one...


"Buying 100% synthetic brands at my local walmart or autoparts store cost 3. 59 - 3. 99 a qt. And we can get Amsoil 15-40 HDD&M from the group purchase site at 3. 90 a qt.

"Seems to me like walmart and "warm and fuzzy" are the same price. For a similar 100% synthetic oil product. "

But WHETHER the extra $2. 75 per quart - or resulting additional $32 per oil change for the synthetic vs my Rotella T is WHAT this discussion has come down to! My question has consistently been, what PROOF of additional engine longevity exists to support YOUR "belief" that you WILL get enough additional engine life to offset the additional lube costs - NOT Mobil 1 vs Amsoil, but EITHER of those 2 vs the Rotella or Delo?


ALONG these lines, I got this message via private Email, my responses are included:
====

"Hi, I work for LE and have for over 22 years. I'm a Certified Lubrication Specialist by the STLE (Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers). I can tell you without question that the oils listed as better oils are better oils and will give you more benefit than just regular oils. "


It would SEEM that any claims of one oil being "better" than another is left to... What?

I don't question that a TOP synthetic may do better than the CHEAPEST dino stuff sold at a drug store under their private cut-rate label - NOR was that comparison under discussion. What IS under discussion, is whether there is and MEANINGFUL, SUBSTANTIAL and documented (respected) independent lab work that proves conclusively that engine "A" using Amsoil will deliver enough additional engine life vs oil cost, over engine "B" using t he latest Mobil 1 synthetic - all things being as equal as possible? WHEN you can provide THAT documentation, we'll have something to talk about!


"There are formulas that have synthetic base and different additive packages and petroleum base with robust additive treat and special additives for friction reduction and anti-wear. All of which will have a lot lower specific wear rate than the average oils that cost less. "

Define "average oils that cost less" - and while you're at it, ALSO define "lot lower specific wear rate" - Hell, to YOU, that might mean another 10,000 miles - while to ME, it would have to be more like 100,000 miles! Loose and vague statements of "lots" or "substantial" are absolutely MEANINGLESS!

"Feel free to call me and I can explain in more detail and answer your questions. "

Just answer the ones above, THAT will be a start!

"Yes I have seen tests that prove it. They cost about $250,000 to run and we will not just give that out so that our competition gets the benefit at our expence. "

You mean your "competition" isn't aware you exist - and they don't have professional labs of their own to analyze your stuff?


My question STILL REMAINS, if I switch from Rotella T or Delo engine oils, over to Mobil ! or Amsiol, HOW MUCH MORE engine life can I expect to receive from my engine - and don't give me fuzzy words like "lots more", or "substantial" or "significant"... Doesn't ANYONE have any actual test documentation to PROVE how much better the high priced stuff is - are you REALLY paying 3 times as much for synthetics based on pure faith and manufacturers claims? I sincerely am NOT trying to be argumentive or abusive here, just would like to see SOME form of reliable PROOF that the top synthetics can justify their cost thru additonal engine life!

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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

[This message has been edited by Gary - KJ6Q (edited 03-14-2001). ]

 

[Sled Puller]

#ad

 

[LandShark]

Yes there were some tests comparing regular to synthetic done a few years ago by Consumer Reports. Go find a library and look it up. As I recall the tests were done on NYC taxi cabs (gas of course) and the basic results were that as far as engine wear was concerned, it made no difference if you used the $0. 59 a quart oil or the $5 a quart synthetic. Maybe someone has a copy of this and can post it.

My $. 02 is that synthetic is worth it in very hot and/or very cold climates. This is where synthetics excel and where you will find the biggest difference between regular and synthetic oils. It's easy for those of us without engineering or chemistry degrees to understand 'pour points'. You can hear a huge difference in how smooth an engine sounds when started at 20 degrees. The rest of the 4 ball, 3 ball mumbo jumbo tests are just a bunch of BS to me. It's mostly marketing hype. Who cares about a 'scratch and sniff test'? Show me some real engine tests! And how about Dyno tests while we're at it!

I too would like to see more third party lab reports on comparative differences between engines torn down at 200,000 or 300,000 miles. So far, the only real data I've seen is the Consumer Reports.


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1995 2500 SLT Club 4x4, auto, 3. 54, 3300 pound Elkhorn slide in camper, AirLift air springs, Ricka dual wheel adapters (used only with the camper on), K&N, DC tow hooks, Rancho RS9000, Hellwig rear sway bar.
110,000 miles and counting.

 

[JConley]

With the engine life of the Cummins in the 300K to 400K mile range using the recommended dino oils, how many owners are actually going to get their money's worth by using synthetics? By itself, using regular oil, the Cummins is going to last a lot longer than most people will want to look at the truck, let along keep it until the engine is worn out. To me the biggest advantage of synthetics is the extreme temps they opperate under, (remember the Cummins is a diesel! not a turbine) and the extended oil change intervals. Personally, I like 6K oil changes since it ties in with transmission, fuel fuel filter changes, and tire rotation times.

I would rather use the cheap stuff, and spend the money on an overhaul at 300K miles. Using Gary's numbers $32. 00 extra per oil change, 50 oil changes in 300K miles = $1600. 00 more spent on oil, when Rotella T would have gotten you just as far.

Still waiting for information on how Amsoil synthetics are better than other synthetics.....

 

[Sled Puller]

You guys may want to consider this:
Ok, you ran cheap oil and your engine needs bearings. Your at 400,000, so you are happy. Now, how long has that engine not been performing top notch?
Condition and quality of life count during that 400,000, don't they?

I would rather have an engine that only has, say, 100,000 miles of wear on it at 400,000, wouldn't you?
Would you say this?
Well, I know it will need painted 5 years from now, so I'm not going to wax it. Is that good logic?

I'll bet the mighty Cummins will run 400,000 on gas engine oil bought at WalMart, But mine won't be trying it!

You all justified buying more truck than you need, NOW you show the wife how frugal you are by saving a few bucks on oil!!!LOL
Gene


[This message has been edited by MGM (edited 03-15-2001). ]

 

[drawson]

Here is my 2c worth. I run AmsOil because I am pushing the mighty Cummins for more HP. i believe it is the best I can do and yes I do run extended changes and send only in every 7500 miles. I have 17. 5K on the oil in my truck as I write this and Blackstone just sent me an e-mail with my results. Everything is on the up and up and they say to keep running the oil. I also am pleasantly surprised that between filter changes I am using no oil. At first I was concerned because back when I ran regular oil and changed it every 5K it was always down 1 quart at 5K. I was thinking that all the fuel I am running was getting in the oil, but Blackstone show less than . 5. I got a hold of AmsOil technical and they told me the higher cook off temp of the AmsOil stops it from being burn above the rings like conventinal oil.

Now this said you have to wonder what oil the top doug of Cummin HP are running. HVAC? I do believe he is an AmsOil man. I don't know about MY6EATSV8? And as for my friend DDD (Dr. Diesel Donnelly) he run I believe Shell oil bought at Cosco at least for now. (I'm going to covert him)

To each there own but for my truck it's AmsOil #ad
#ad
#ad
#ad

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"If you think the $2. 00/qt Penzoil, Quaker State, etc on the shelves at Wal-mart is just as good as Amsoil, Mobil, LE, Red Line, etc you will be sadly dissapointed. I believe this is one case where you do "get what you pay for". "

====

PROVE IT!

For *ME* to pay the greatly increased price for Amsoil, I would have to see INDEPENDENT laboratory evidence that my engine would deliver at LEAST a 50% increase in service life to justify that extra expense...

IS there such documented evidence - or are we again dealing in "warm and fuzzy, feel good" feelings that we are somehow "giving our truck the BEST available", with LITTLE or NO actual PROOF that we are getting any measurable benefit over the long haul?

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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

 

[JConley]

MGM show me documented evidence that if I use Amsoil, my engine will only have 100,000 miles of wear at 400K, and I will switch today. I know synthetics are better, but where is the break even point to justify the cost.

 

[RHARVEY]

OK. . I tried to stay out of this, but I couldn't. I have been running Amsoil since October, and yes I am a dealer. And yes I understand the tests and what I read of what they write that this oil will do. But I think the final choice is up to the guy that write the check for the oil whether it be Delo400,Rotella or what ever.
I guess this is the reason I am not a good salesman! I only know what I have experience after I put the Amsoil in my truck. With selecting oils,you weigh the benefits and the cost factor and make 'your' choice!!!
I think I put in more than my . 02 worth #ad

Rick


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RICK
97 2500,CC,5 SPEED, 3. 54 Limited Slip,Psychotty System,K&N, Pre-Turbo ISSPRO 3" Pyrometer & Boost Guage,Silencer Ring Removed
12,000 RBW 5th Wheel Hitch,25' Excel 5th Wheel,Rancho RSX17000 Shocks,Amsoil Dealer,Straight Piped

[This message has been edited by RHARVEY (edited 03-15-2001). ]

 

[JConley]

BTW, I still havent seen anyone post the difference between Amsoil synthetics and other synthetics. Could it be that there is no difference????? Come on Amsoil guys! I know you are out there, and this seems like a basic question.

Still waiting... .

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"With selecting oils,you weigh the benefits and the cost factor and make 'your' choice!!!"

Which is EXACTLY what some of us are attempting here! Most of us are willing to acknowledge that the sysnthetics ARE better, and SOME synthetics MAY be better than others - but what has NOT been shown, is what that translates to in extra MILES obtained from a typical Cummins B5. 9...


Reason for my vocal frustration relates to the VAST amounts of vague and
misleading info and pure PERSONAL opinions without basis in demonstrable
FACT. To the point, I will acknowledge the improved performance of oils
such as Amsoil over those like Delo 400 - but the REAL question is, HOW
MUCH wear reducing benefit DO they provide?

Are we talking 5%? 10%? WHAT?

IF we were to use/accept the service life of my Cummins as 500,000 miles on
Delo 400, and service interval at every 5,000 miles, how much MORE
engine life at the SAME service interval could I expect if I used Amsoil
instead? We have already determined that use of the more expensive
Amsoil will drive lube costs to an additional $30 or more per oil
change, or *$3000* over the service life of the engine - hell, that's
nearly the cost of a NEW Cummins engine, and IS the cost of a waranteed
rebuilt one! So is the use of the "better" grades of oil really cost
effective?

Sure, I've heard all about extended service life and such with synthetics, but as with the basic service periods with conventional oils vs synthetics, seen NO test documentation that proves the synthetics offer extended life that significantly betters what's available with oils such as Delo 400 - and for THAT matter, even the conventional oils have proven thru oil analysis to be entirely capable of extended use TOO, so the synthetics don't exactly have that issue cornered either!

For the record, and to re-state what I have mention previously on this issue, *I* am a FIRM believer in the superiority of synthetics - I use Mobil 1 in all my cars - the '98 Camaro SS, my wife's '93 Mazda 323, and my restored '70 Caddy... I even use it in my Honda 1KW portable generator - but THOSE are small capacity, low mileage vehicles that keep lube costs manageable - but at 12 quarts a change, the added expense for the Cummins starts getting significant. The cost for synthetic oil for the Cummins ALONE is greater than all my OTHER vehicles COMBINED!


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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

[This message has been edited by Gary - KJ6Q (edited 03-15-2001). ]