Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Anatomy of an APPS

[rweis]

Gary this is the connector you need Casper's]Casper's Electronics, Inc. : 6 way Metripack PTS 150. 2 Female Electronics, Inc. : for the 131032 sensor but you will get that housing that you don't need..... .

Gary, thought I remembered the connector was posted back a page or two.



Bob Weis

 

[JLandry]

... need to find out PRECISELY what the Williams # is for the APPS module ONLY, without any added and unneeded garbage attached

Gary,



What part number is melted into your Williams APPS?



Thanks,



John L.

 

[timbo]

Been gone for a few days - looks like lots of - UMmmmmmm, INTERESTING stuff has been happening... :-laf:-laf:-laf



ANYWAY, got my own Williams APPS to play with, and a couple more test APPS brackets should be arriving - possibly sitting down at the post office as I write this



I ordered the Williams #131032, probably the right APPS module, but includes a fancy Billet-type CNC mount that is certainly NOT needed for our application, and drives the price higher - need to find out PRECISELY what the Williams # is for the APPS module ONLY, without any added and unneeded garbage attached...



Gotta get to NAPA to see if a proper 6-pin connector is available locally for connection to the Williams APPS - I have all the other stuff to complete another working replacement APPS assembly, bracket and all...



I want to continue working on simplified MS brackets for those who, like me, prefer to isolate the IVS function from the APPS module, and make it a mechanical operation, rather than electronic.



Still more to come...

Aren't you looking for the DDEC II style that has just the pot with NO IVS? Why did you order 131032 the style with the IVS.

 

[timbo]

This is easier to show you than explain. You oughta see me type, IT ISN'T PRETTY!! The first pic. shows the idle screw all the way out. The 2nd pic shows the idle screw set at the point if you move the lever voltage rises immediatly. NOTE THE VOLTAGE DID NOT CHANGE, from all the way out to the point where it shows in pic #2. Also look at the red meter(IDLE ACTIVE) it demonstrates a closed circuit (has continuity). The 3rd pic. shows the point at which the IVS goes to ACCEL mode, and IDLE is now open. I test every sensor to make sure it performs the exact same way. BUT each sensor varies a few hundreths on the initial voltage and also varies slightly at the point IVS TRIPS from IDLE to ACCEL. I am keeping a log to keep track of every sensors parameters.

 

[FLynes]

Hey Timbo, not to get off the subject and take a walk in the fields, but I just noticed that you're from York!!!! I was born at the York Hospital and lived at 22 E. Jackson St. , which is now in the ghetto part of York. In the 60's and early 70's, though, it was halfway decent.



Anyway, getting back to the subject at hand, are you selling your APPS getup and if so, how much?

 

[timbo]

Hey Timbo, not to get off the subject and take a walk in the fields, but I just noticed that you're from York!!!! I was born at the York Hospital and lived at 22 E. Jackson St. , which is now in the ghetto part of York. In the 60's and early 70's, though, it was halfway decent.



Anyway, getting back to the subject at hand, are you selling your APPS getup and if so, how much?

I was also born in the york hospital,and your absolutly correct jackson street is now ghetto. I'm just out of york, close to spring grove. I am selling them at 150 shipped. I have a few that will be here on friday, and should have 25 in 1-2 weeks.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Aren't you looking for the DDEC II style that has just the pot with NO IVS? Why did you order 131032 the style with the IVS.

I wasn't sure that particular module housing was the same as the ones known to fit directly to the DC APPS bracket - and am too cheap to gamble $75 or so on one that is purely an experiment... :-laf:-laf:-laf



Besides that, That was the one recommended by both the Williams tech, and the Portland area distributor - and I was also told by the Williams tech that as far as HE knew, ALL their APPS modules contained the IVS section...



OH well...



But, for sure, what I *really* want(ed), is ONLY the potentiometer section, and for sure, in a case style that is the same as these we KNOW will fit direct - IS there such an animal, and if so, do you have a Williams part # for it?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

OK, another potential variation for a MS bracket and mounting method that, like Bob's, uses the APPS bracket bolts. Here again is the T-strap material I used:



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The piece I cut and fabricated from it:



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Here it is with MS attached:



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And here. mounted on the APPS bracket:



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I have one more variation for the final assembly I am making up, that one will start out as an L-shaped flat bracket, be bent, and secure to the APPS bracket using only a SINGLE bracket bolt - and after that, I'm about done playing with these.



And Timbo, I just today got one of those dandy digital meters you show up above - sure can't beat then for under $3 each Harbor Freight :-laf

 

[rweis]

Gary,



Your bracket is better than mine because it is easier for the largest number of members to duplicate it. Just give them exact places to make the bends, what angle, and where you made the cut on the MS mounting plate, and where to drill for the MS mount, what size screws etc.



I like my welded bracket approach, but it is not real practical for the average user to make unless they can weld or know someone that can weld it for them.



I vote for Timbo's plug n play and your bracket for the IVS.



Bob Weis

 

[DFoster]

My APPS died on Sat! It's been giving me trouble for some time, but completely died this time. I got the Williams sensor and harness in tonight - seems to work great. Voltage is a little high, but no codes.

Thanks to all for coming up with this!

Dale

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary,



Your bracket is better than mine because it is easier for the largest number of members to duplicate it. Just give them exact places to make the bends, what angle, and where you made the cut on the MS mounting plate, and where to drill for the MS mount, what size screws etc.



I like my welded bracket approach, but it is not real practical for the average user to make unless they can weld or know someone that can weld it for them.



I vote for Timbo's plug n play and your bracket for the IVS.



Bob Weis

WELL, other than the few of us active in this thread playing around with the separate MS IVS setups, haven't heard much active interest in that approach - most (predictably, and understandably) are clearly more interested in Timbo's setup due to the reasonable price and ease of installation - and I'm VERY happy for him and his success! Oo.



SO, I don't plan on getting too wound up with diagrams for brackets unless specifically asked - I'm merely posting a few alternate setups here for the few reading now, and later, so they can see what methods are available, and pick whatever appeals to them.

 

[mhenon]

This is easier to show you than explain. You oughta see me type, IT ISN'T PRETTY!! The first pic. shows the idle screw all the way out. The 2nd pic shows the idle screw set at the point if you move the lever voltage rises immediatly. NOTE THE VOLTAGE DID NOT CHANGE, from all the way out to the point where it shows in pic #2. Also look at the red meter(IDLE ACTIVE) it demonstrates a closed circuit (has continuity). The 3rd pic. shows the point at which the IVS goes to ACCEL mode, and IDLE is now open. I test every sensor to make sure it performs the exact same way. BUT each sensor varies a few hundreths on the initial voltage and also varies slightly at the point IVS TRIPS from IDLE to ACCEL. I am keeping a log to keep track of every sensors parameters.

That's exactly what I found on mine Tim. Idle voltage went to . 632 and stayed there even as I continued to unscrew the idle stop screw. I turned the stop screw back in to just engage the APPS (like . 633v) and called it good.



Of course I've since gone to the WM526 pedal assembly and there's no adjustment there at all. Idle voltage is about . 600 on the pedal assembly.

Mike

 

[rweis]

Gary,



Did you take a file to the bell crank edge where the MS roller rides to ensure smoothness? I did not but think I will go back in and make sure the edge is very smooth for the benefit and longevity of the MS roller.



Bob Weis



How about DFoster above, #1 post and benefit of the new APPS, that's really neat.

 

[rweis]

But, for sure, what I *really* want(ed), is ONLY the potentiometer section, and for sure, in a case style that is the same as these we KNOW will fit direct - IS there such an animal, and if so, do you have a Williams part # for it?

Gary,



I am not sure about ONLY the potentiometer section. Next time I am in Orlando and have some time I will go to ABC Bus and get with their parts counter guys and try to figure out which one it is. In the mean time I plan on ordering the following to have a spare:



Williams Controlls, page 11, service kit for the 131032 includes only part numbers 8,9 which are the module and the 2 screws. The service kit # is 131973. When you go to their store front it says the module is NOT available by itself, but the 131973 is the module and the 2 screws.



131973 Parts Kit for Cummins and Mercedes North American Engines $94. 54 + shipping



To be totally sure I would call them and ask what is in service kit 131973.



Bob Weis

 

[JLandry]

131973 Parts Kit for Cummins and Mercedes North American Engines $94. 54 + shipping



To be totally sure I would call them and ask what is in service kit 131973.

Bob,



Save yourself a call...



I ordered and received Williams Conrols service kit 131973 and can personally verify it does include 1 each 131856 APPS w/intigrated IVS, and some screws. The 131856 APPS included in the kit turned out to be a drop-in replacement for the DC APPS with no voltage adjustments needed.



Best regards,



John L.



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[DFoster]

Per John L. , the Williams Conrols service kit 131973 seems to be a drop in replacement sensor, with some unneeded screws added. I backed off the idel set screw after I intalled it trying to reduce the voltage, then ended up advancing it back about where it started to avoid a lot of dead pedal travel. Working well so far (~ 50 miles).

Dale

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Thanks guys, for the Williams info - too bad the 2 Williams "experts/techs" don't know much about their own products!



Like most salesmen types, looks like they know precious little about what really happens "under the hood". :-laf:-laf



But at least, so far their comments as to NO modules available without the built-in IVS seems to hold true.



And Bob, the first 2 of the setups I have done were quite smooth along the belcrank edge, and required no smoothing - tho' I do apply a thin film of grease for lubrication.



Got another APPS and bracket yesterday, and it is pretty uneven along the edge, and will need smoothing - and for the first time, THAT APPS was absolutely SHOT in the potentiometer section...

 

[JLandry]

But at least, so far their comments as to NO modules available without the built-in IVS seems to hold true.

Gary,



I think they're wrong about this too...



From my reading of the Williams Throttle Controls cataog, service kit part number 131167 contains some screws and a sensor WITHOUT an intigrated IVS. The sensor for this service kit is Williams part number 130656 and the current cost is $86. 96. The sensor alone is not available seperately from the service kit. The sensor included in this service kit appears nearly identical to the one with an IVS from service kit number 131973, but the coupler on it is narrower and has only 3 wires instead of 6.



According to the WIlliams catalog, if you use the non-IVS APPS in service kit 131167, you would want to use Wiring Harness number 130063. It's available online for only $17. 50.



What I can't say in all this is whether or not the resistance values of the Williams APPS without the integrated IVS is the same as the one with an integrated IVS. My hunch is they would be the same in order to comply with SAE J1843 specifications. But someone would have to buy one and test it to be sure.



Best regards,



John L.

 

[rweis]

Gary,



I know this is a massive WAG (wild a. . guess) but,



From your experience, what is the % of totally failed dc APPS to APPS that have "failed"? ie what % of the APPS you have looked at could at least the pot still be used? WHICH lends crediability to the micro switch approach.



From your comment about being totally shot in the pot section (1 dc APPS) vs XX APPS you have looked at. Maybe 5% totally dead?, 95% APPS pot still usable?



Then those of us that go the micro switch route could run an extremely long time off the "failed dc APPS" of other members for several decades. Just have to set up a place for the membership to send their "dead" APPS.



Bob Weis

 

[DFoster]

Bob, my dc APPS only failed on the pot side, idle switch side still switched fine.

Dale