Another Blown HX-40

[hammong]

Blow-Off Valves are NOT so much for preserving boost between shifts, are they are for venting excess pressure and preventing hyperbaric surge in th intake tract.

I don't believe our trucks have a "throttle body" with a butterfly valve like the typical gasser does. In a gasoline turbocharged vehicle, when the throttle body closes, there is NO WHERE for the high boost pressure to go -- and the turbo is still spinning and compressing the intake tract for some fraction of a few seconds. It's this increase in pressure that causes a momentary overboost condition, and shocks the turbo.

BOV's are opened by vacuum on the manifold-side of the throttle body. I don't think our trucks ever reach a true vacuum condition because there's still some boost off-throttle. The BOV may never open up to do it's job in a diesel application.

Greg

'87 944 Turbo <url>http://www.rints.com/hammond/turbo.html</url>

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Y2K Dodge Cummins QC 2500 SLT Laramie 4x4 Long Bed, 4. 10/Auto, Forest Green/Driftwood, 265x75R16 Michelin LTX, 6 speaker CD, Camper/Tow/Plow Packages, Westin Black Nerfs, Mopar bedliner, Ultra bright diamondplate toolbox, K&N Filtercharger. Autometer EGT and Boost gauges with 2-gauge pillar coming soon!

http://www.rints.com/hammond for photos!

 

[JohnE]

I'll defend the HX-40 turbo. That's the standard on the C8. 3's, both diesel and CNG variations. No complaint on the quality, but they aren't pulling these <em>majestic</em> boost levels either. They do, however, perform flawlessly in a transit bus which sees a typical duty cycle of full fuel - brake - full fuel - brake. (You get the picture. )

My non-bomb will huff & puff at me if I stand on the fuel pedal and let go. I, at least, hope it clears the air filter... ...

Cheers;
John E

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Smokin Joe,

Majestic said they didn't clip the wheels on the HX-40's. They just balanced and lightened them. I can't tell if mine was clipped or not. Both wheels look like they have been on a surface grinder. The work looked great.

Hammer,

If your HX-40 has not been worked by Majestic turbo, you have nothing to worry about. I hope the HX-40 is clocked correctly and ready to accept the OE Dodge wastegate actuator. You'll be cussing if its not. #ad
Plumbing the new downpipe into the exsisting exhaust system and removing the old downpipe is 90% of the work in swapping turbos. The turbo swap itself is a piece of cake.

Diesel Guy,

Majestic claimed their competition prep, Spindle/wheel lightening will yield up to 600 R. P. M. drop in spool up time and up to two lbs. of extra boost at maximum turbo charge output. The spool-up time drop is what most of us were looking for.
A few TDR members had this done and were very pleased with the results.


EMDDIESEL,

Yes, the HX-40 will bolt to the stock or ATS exhaust manifold. A new downpipe is required with an HX-40 because its 4" off the back of the turbo. You need some fueling to spool it up. On a stock engine it would seems like you have lost power. Its the next size larger then an HX-35, made for the Cummins C series 505 c. i. engines. I'm not that familiar with an HX-40 in a 24 valve engine.


A blow off valve would be a good idea. There are plenty of spare pipe plugs in the intake manifold. An overboost problem did not break this HX-40. If it had, It would have been my fault. Done deal.

Shawn,

I heard no strange noises or any hint that the turbo was ready to bust. I was on an acceleration run at about 40 mph at about 35 lbs boost when it let go. Boost needle just dropped down to zero. Truck still drivable. Just no boost or mid range power. Low end drivability & idle was fine. I thought I blew off an intercooler hose.

My 6 Eats V8's,

When Kevin from Majestic said he could get the HX-40's to spool up quicker and be more user friendly for the B-Series motor, I didn't second guess him. He has 18 years experience building custom turbos.

JohnE,

I shouldn't think 35 lbs of boost should toast an HX-40. My truck does not have mega fueling or excessive egt's. Both bearings on the impeller side and the turbine side feel shot. 1/4" side to side movement. On closer inspection, both wheels had contacted & scored the housing. If I had 50+ lbs of boost on my gauge and lifted my foot quickly, I would deserve a broken shaft. This is the biggest concern with breaking an HX-40. HX-40 shaft bearings burning up were unheard of before Majestic started tweaking them.


Million Dollar question:

Did Majestic's tweaking cause the turbo the fail with only 90 EASY miles? Or was it a bad turbo from Holset to begin with? We can rule out user abuse, poor/wrong/haphazard installation ect. I DID THE JOB CORRECTLY. Can't go to Holset now with warranty issues. Majestic's work voided any Holset support. #ad


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Bill R
94 2500 SLT 4x4 5 Speed, 3. 54 LS, JRE 4" exhaust, Autometer Pyro, Boost & Water temp gauges, Bosch 215 HP injectors, Timing @ 14. 7º, JRE Stage III #4 plate 270/675, AFC spring kit, High performance delivery valves, Piers prepped HX-40, Governor spring kit, ATS Pulse exhaust manifold, Scotty Air, Bully Dog Propane Injection, Roadmaster Active Suspension, Optima Red Tops, Geno's Exhaust Blanket, Espar Heater (won it!), Synthetic lubes throughout.



[This message has been edited by HEMI®Dart (edited 05-16-2001). ]

 

[Bad340fish]

Also on a gasser when the blade shuts it has all that air back up through to turbo, well when you open the blade back up there is no air. My conquest which was BOMBed with a larger turbo and "molested" ECM would black smoke pretty bad on shifts over 12psi for this reason. Solution??? STOMP SHIFT lol If you never close the throttle its no problem.

Also as posted above by someone else its gonna be hard to find a BOV that would stay shut till 40psi and then be able to close again.

Good luck with the turbo HEMI
Clark

 

[bholcomb]

Really sorry to hear about the turbo Bill. Just for everyones info lets get a survey of the Majestic owners and if their turbo is alive or dead, how many miles or rebuilds.

Me: Alive, about 3k, knock on wood. It has lots and lots of starts and shutdowns for that 3k.

I think this is going to be a disappointment to everyone who has one on their work bench, but lets see. I personally try to let the boost down relatively slow most of the time, but it has had a few non drivers bark it.

Why does that stupid Bully Dog banner have mileage mispelled? Hopefully they didn't pay much to have that made.

Brian

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Brain,

I'm only speculating, but it appears the HX-40's Majestic worked on "early" in the year are the ones not holding up. Mine, C. Sutton's, B. Hopper's, Bakes, B Meers ect. Mine was done late January '01. I was told they were clipping the wheels, then I was told they didn't clip the wheels. Got all kinds of conflicting info on what they do/did. I didn't know what to believe.

Brian, If yours was done early then forget my theory. #ad




[This message has been edited by HEMI®Dart (edited 05-15-2001). ]

 

[My 6 Eats V8's Old File]

Hemi, the above mentioned in my reply was from a man thats had his own turbo shop for 35 years, he said he tried this 10 years ago and had the same kind of results, unreliability. I not questioning that it works, its reducing rotating mass. That speeds things up. He also mentioned by clipping it acctually had a detramental effect dew to less fin area, but it would flow more say like a 17cm. He recomemded to just balance as good as possible, he balances to 0 to 1, factory was 7 to 10. I don't know weights, but I do know that is on average 4 times better from his words. He also mentioned this usually was good for 1 or 2 more psi boost. And I am on my 4th turbo fyi. I need twins.

 

[bholcomb]

Bill,

Mine was sent in right after you got yours back. Your turbo should also be older than mine in build date. I guess that blows that theory. I really can't believe they are still working on them.

 

[csutton7]

here goes guys---I'm not badmouthing or endorsing anyone, but will tell you what I've heard---Holset has had quite a few 40's eat it lately which = price increase---Majestic doesn't clip unless you ask for it-they bullet both sides and machine the air filter hose connection and then make sure it's balanced----my turbo shaft had two different miked readings-one side was bigger(reason for failure) than the other(the shaft should read the same along itself)---Weircummin has had a lot of work done by Majestic and says they're one of the best---I didn't have any bullets put on my new one(replacement) and it has seen 45lbs of boost---Majestic is recommended by Sportbike who sells turbos--I don't think Majestic is bulleting both sides of a 40 anymore, but that could've changed by now---so the bottom line is there is no bottom line--If all is true and Holset has had a lot of failures then it would seem they put out some bad turbos and Majestic is caught in the middle----bad luck of the draw---maybe--Weircummin should gives us some input on this as he knows a lot more than me and I trust his judgement 100%--chris

 

[Lil' Dog]

You guys need to get the performance curves for the Turbos from Holset before you start jumping up the boost. There are surge areas in centrifugal pumps and turbines where the compressor or the turbine side will become unstable from the fluid dynamics of either the drive pressure or the compressed gas. If the turbo goes into surge, your end result is what you guys are getting, wiped bearings and damaged housings. The speed of the impellors is not the only deciding factor here. There are design changes that would have to be made to the housings as well change the flow charactoristics surrounding the compressor or turbine wheels.
If you go the the Grand National Website they have a very good topic on how they select the turbo for their flow-pressure ratio conditions to ensure that you do-not get into surge.


J-eh

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Jason Hoffman
93 D250LE CC 5 spd 3. 54 LSD. K&N. Banks Pyro/Boost gauges. E&M Custom seats. Bosch H4, PIAA 80W/80W HdLites. Cummins Power Booster member.

185,000 Km (115,625 Mi)

FOR SALE - 89 D250LE 5 Spd 3. 54 LSD Reg Cab. "tweaked pump", BD Injectors, 3. 5" Exst tail section straight.
237,500 miles (380,000 Kms) 7850 Hrs.
89 Pics/March 2001

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Weircummin is going to go to Majestic himself and check out my turbo for me.

Thanks Dean. Having TDR member support 1,000 miles away is awsome.

Thanks a Million Weircummin #ad

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Many, Many thanks go to Weircummin for representing a fellow TDR member at Majestic. #ad
#ad
#ad


Dean did the leg work on getting my HX-40 replaced. I didn't even buy it from him. I can't thank him enough. Getting in touch and talking to Kevin @ Majestic can be tough at times.

It looks like a bad lot of Holset HX-40's got out of the factory at one time. Majestic is stuck in the middle. I can't go back to BD Power or Holset with warranty issues after the Majestic mods.

Thanks a Million Dean #ad
#ad


[This message has been edited by HEMI®Dart (edited 05-26-2001). ]

 

[willyslover]

good to see a TDR member wants to help out in a bad situation. .
also looks like Majestic is sucking air for others bad work and Dean is trying like helll for them not to loose their reputation. . now that is a real friend to both the business and a fellow TDR member. .

DEAN YOU DA' MAN

 

[WeirCummin]

Hey Guys,
I dont think I've done anything that a fellow TDR member would not have done if they had access to and a good relationship with Majestic. HEMI's turbo is almost a complete loss, with the exception of the compressor and turbine housings. It seems that this one was not properly assembled from the factory. I've been there when they have done there prep work to a couple of HX40s and they never have in the past disassembled the bearing housing to add bullets or clip the wheels. The bearing housing is where all the problems have arisen from. All that has changed, every HX40 they are donig now is completely gone through so this problem will not accrue again. I don't think the time frame has anything to do with the failures, mine was done the last week of January as most of the ones that failed. I purchased my turbo from Majestic and I think the difference is that it has been in there stock for about six months.
As for the problem being one of balance "NOT" They do a much better job of it than the factory does. I've seen them pull stock wheel assemblies out that had very poor balance and would not hold up to the rpm and boost levels that we run. At least I wouldn't want that rotating assembly in my turbo. As for the import drag racing,HAHA, they do a lot of turbos for the rice burner crowd. On some of thoughs turbos they put a compressor wheel in that is up to 4 times the size of the turbine wheel and then balance it. There is a fellow TDR member north of me that is running a H1E compessor wheel in an HX35 with no problems. Jimmy chime in on this !! I am running a H1E wheel in my turbo and am thinking of going to a H1E turbine wheel and H2E compressor wheel.
Kevin is very frustrated about all this because of his reputation and the money it's cost him, I don't blame him. Right now he is kind of dragging his feet on this, but I know he will step up to the plate and make it right. Bill it was good talking to you. I'll make sure your turbo is ready to run before it's shipped out.
Dean

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Y2K(BD. 11. 18. 99)PW7A BE2L34,(A4OP=ETC/DDX),DMDP w/DSA,AHJ,Autometer Pyro& 50#Boost,STD. PE&EZ,sportbike injectors, PSA, Majestic HX40,4"exh. w/Stan's downpipe

[This message has been edited by WeirCummin (edited 05-28-2001). ]

 

[JGblkLand]

I'm the one Dean is talking about with the HX35 and the H1E wheel. My turbo is working great, no problems at all. I live about 40 miles south of Majestic and I have talked to them about turbos. They also do work on farm equipment turbos and I've never heard anyone complain about any work they had done there. That's my 2 cents worth.

 

[work2muchplay2little]

Originally posted by WeirCummin:
I am running a H1E wheel in my turbo and am thinking of going to a H1E turbine wheel and H2E compressor wheel.

WeirCummin, would you mind elaborating on your turbo set-up as to performance, boost, EGT's, etc. that you have now and your thinking about the H1E turbine wheel and H2E compressor wheel as far as expectations for performance, EGT's etc. ? TIA

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Kurt Voss
********* 1999 2500 24VCTD AUTO 4x4 QC LB Laramie SLT, Luverne stainless steel nerf bars, 3 piece bug deflector, mopar mud flaps, Line-X bedliner, Blue Chip Fuel Management System (Premium), Psychotty Air, DD3's,TTPM, DD 4" exhaust, HX40, DTT VB/TC(91%) , Mag-Hytec transmission pan... YEEEEEHAAAA!!
2000 4x4 Z71 Tahoe, all options, rear AC, brush guard, nerf bars, mobile video system, after market 3rd row seat... the ultimate urban assault vehicle!

[This message has been edited by work2muchplay2little (edited 05-29-2001). ]

 

[HEMI®Dart]

Let me jump in here for a minute Kurt.

I got the HX-40 back from Majestic yesterday.

Here is the good news:

Majestic replaced the shaft bearings n/c. Both were burnt due to lack of lubrication.
They polished the compressor side where the wheel had rubbed the housing. Looks ok.

Kevin refunded the cost of Majestic's Competition prep. I ate the $48 shipping cost to send it to them.

Here is the bad news:

To my surprise, apparently they reused both the OE compresssor wheel and turbine wheel/shaft. Both wheels have housing rub damage. A guess, maybe 1/8" ground off each. Compressor wheel edges are still curled over where they hit. Turbine housing is still scored where the wheel hit. I'm not sure whether they balanced the "new" size, weight & shaped rubbed wheels & rotating assembly either.

I'm not going to waste my time bolting this thing on. I'm not an expert in turbochargers, but I'd say this one is scrap.

At this point in time, I'll get a new HX-40, or wait for twin T's and start over. Done deal.

Thanks for everyones support, especially Dean. #ad


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Bill R
94 2500 SLT 4x4 5 Speed, 3. 54 LS, JRE 4" exhaust, Autometer Pyro, Boost & Water temp gauges, Bosch 215 HP injectors, Timing @ 14. 7º, JRE Stage III #4 plate 270/675, AFC spring kit, High performance delivery valves, Piers prepped HX-40, Governor spring kit, ATS Pulse exhaust manifold, Scotty Air, Bully Dog Propane Injection, Roadmaster Active Suspension, Optima Red Tops, Geno's Exhaust Blanket, Espar Heater (won it!), Synthetic lubes throughout.



[This message has been edited by HEMI®Dart (edited 05-30-2001). ]

 

[work2muchplay2little]

Originally posted by HEMI®Dart:
To my surprise, apparently they reused both the OE compresssor wheel and turbine wheel/shaft. Both wheels have housing rub damage.

Bill, this still sounds like a pretty lame solution as you're no better off than before. It would seem that Majestic would buy enough Holset turbos to have some recourse of their own with Holset, and shouldn't stiff you with damaged parts. This latest round has moved Majestic into the "patronize only as a last resort" column in my book. Hope this isn't the final chapter on this deal... #ad