Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Another lift pump gone bad!!!!!!!!!

[craxy4cummins]

I just replaced my lift pump 2 months ago with a carter p4601hp and it is out again. I may be throwing out some cuss words but you know, I owned a Power Stroke for almost 3 years and I only had to replace 4 things. Fan belt, vacuum pump, tires, and brakes. I have had 2 different cummins in the past 2 years and I have never made it a month without replacing something. Every month something brakes. I love the power that the cummins has and i love the sound but I am beginning to wonder about the reliability compared to the powerstroke.



Does anyone have this thought??

Oh and if I mount my new lift pump on the frame next to the fuel tank will that help on the life of the pump??



THanks guys

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Oh and if I mount my new lift pump on the frame next to the fuel tank will that help on the life of the pump?



Yes

 

[CumminsFarmer]

RELIABILITY vs. A POWERJOKE?!!!! You must be kidding me right? Granted the 2nd Gen. 24 valve had a fuel issue, but its an easy fix. Buy a Carter pusher and put it on the frame rail, or a FASS or RASP or whatever! Im gonna go into a little tirage on mileage here. I know of a '97 12 valve with 768,000 miles on it, and all they did was replace the main thrust bearing on the crankshaft. I know another guy personally with a '93 that has 417,000 miles and its STILL running strong. The 24 valves havent been around long enough to gauge longevity. The Cummins nearly always outlasts Strokers because its an L6 engine that runs at lower RPM's. Strokers are V8's that run higher and faster, not to mention the new 6-liter having an oil foaming problem, hence the injection surges and power losses they suffer from. Granted the 7. 3 Powerstroke is a pretty sturdy engine, but Ive not seen ONE, or heard of that will last as long as a Cummins. Oh, and dont forget the intake grid heater over glowplugs. Glow plugs as many know have a tendency to swell and get stuck. Sometimes it requires major machine shop work just to get the suckers out! Sorry for the long post, but ya struck a nerve.

 

[Greenleaf]

I have NINE ISB engines (in school buses) and the lift pump is a major problem. The school will not invest $$ to install an aftermarket pump, however if I owned just "ONE" ISB engine like (most of) you guys do, why not simply install an aftermarket pump of some sort. Be it FASS or Airdog, Carter and be done with it??!! Or is it not that simple?? Am I missing something here??



Don't tell me that $500. 00 and a weekend of work isn't worh it. When it comes time to buy a turbo and box..... chrome stacks and ATS tripple lock or SB clutch, you guys don't bat an eye lash.



I must be missing something. I'm not being a smart butt. I just don't understand (some) of you 24 valvers.



Scott

 

[craxy4cummins]

Just in the past 6 months I have replaced, all the syncronizers in my 6 speed, clutch, vacume pump seal kit, then the vacume pump, wiper moter, multifunction switch (wipers still not working) Lift pump 3 times and going on the 4th now, injection pump once, universal joints twice, Rear one 3 times, Carrier bearing twice, rear end rebuilt once, balljoints twice, track bar once and I think its do again, brakes (normal maintnence), and all this has been replaced in the past 6 to 7 months . I just hit 140k miles and I did all the same stuff on my 01 dually exept that I put 3 trannys in it in a 2 month period and I had 98k on it when I sold it.



All I do is drive it on the highway pulling an 8k lb trailer.



Not to be a smart butt. What to you mean you dont understand (some of us 24 valves? Am I doing something wrong? I guess I need help here because I dont drive the shi* out of my truck or anything.



Oh and a Carter lift pump is what I had that went out in 2 months

 

[Murle]

Get a FASS and no more worries... ...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Get a FASS and no more worries... ... "





UMMmmmm - well, not to rain on yer parade, but check out the thread in the pointer below - be sure to read ALL the posts...





https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1242075#post1242075

 

[Fishin Guide]

"Get a FASS and no more worries... ... "





UMMmmmm - well, not to rain on yer parade, but check out the thread in the pointer below - be sure to read ALL the posts...





https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1242075#post1242075

Good info Gary.



I am gonna have a 12V lift pump as soon as my cam shows up. Then I'll send you my dead lift pump #5! :-laf



Dave

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"I am gonna have a 12V lift pump as soon as my cam shows up. Then I'll send you my dead lift pump #5!"



Dave, I'd LOVE to have it, no joke! Contact me if you're serious, I'd gladly pay the postage!



I have this growing theory where repeated low mileage LP failures occur. I suspect that as the pumps wear in, the internal vanes seat and brushes reach optimum performance, the LP virtually gets TOO efficient and begins to cavitate/vaporlock at the upper PSI (16+ PSI) usually seen at lower fuel demand. Often they will NOT restore proper pumping action until shut down and restarted.



This is where a lower PSI pusher pump really can earn it's keep, by literally FORCING fuel thru the stock LP, and then also forcing restoration of normal flow when higher fuel demand is called for. Plus, at their lower PSI ratings, the pushers don't seem to tend to cavitate, reinforcing my theory.



Last one of those I got, I checked out thoroughly, used in a pictoral thread here on TDR, and later installed on my truck. It's been there operating perfectly for about 20,000 miles, and my original is now in my tool box as a spare!



I think there is really a need for a fuel regulator with these pumps to regulate and bypass fuel to the tank at PSI above 12 PSI or so, to eliminate potential cavitition.



If I can get one of these "failed" pumps, I'll check it out and do another pictoral test to illustrate my theory for the TDR website...

 

[JCoffey]

Gary,



Are you by anyway affiliated with Carter? Just Joking What model Carter are you running for the pusher? You stated in another thread that it was a 9PSI model but when I look at what Summit Racing has to offer I see the following models:

( P4070 5 psi, 1/4" NPT fittings)

(P4594 7 psi, 1/4" NPT fittings)

(P4600HP 7 psi, 100GPH, 3/8 NPT fittings)

(P4601HP 15 psi, 100GPH, 3/8" NPT fittings)

The last two state that they are Epoxy coated and a fuel pressure regulator is required. ) Any ideas what the Epoxy coating is all about and is one of these the one I want?



You also told me in the other thread that you used a Cummins LP power extender. Do you have the Cummins part number for this extender?



Thanks,



James

 

[gtobey]

Here's what I did when my LP started losing it...

"Get a FASS and no more worries... ... "





UMMmmmm - well, not to rain on yer parade, but check out the thread in the pointer below - be sure to read ALL the posts...





https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1242075#post1242075

STANADYNE Master Filter 33945



15. 5 psi @ idle

13. 5 psi @ 75MPH going up 7% grade in Overdrive for 5 miles, 3. 55 rears, A/C on



I hope this picture uploads... .



Good luck!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Gary,



Are you by anyway affiliated with Carter? Just Joking What model Carter are you running for the pusher? You stated in another thread that it was a 9PSI model but when I look at what Summit Racing has to offer I see the following models:

( P4070 5 psi, 1/4" NPT fittings)

(P4594 7 psi, 1/4" NPT fittings)

(P4600HP 7 psi, 100GPH, 3/8 NPT fittings)

(P4601HP 15 psi, 100GPH, 3/8" NPT fittings)

The last two state that they are Epoxy coated and a fuel pressure regulator is required. ) Any ideas what the Epoxy coating is all about and is one of these the one I want?



You also told me in the other thread that you used a Cummins LP power extender. Do you have the Cummins part number for this extender?



Thanks,



James

James, I use the Carter 4600, which Jegs specs as:



Silver Pump

Standard Pressure with 3/8'' NPT Inlet and Outlet

6-8 psi output

No Regulator Required

100 gph Free Flow



Mine, according to 2 different guages, is good for 9+ PSI, and has operated flawlessly for nearly 40,000 miles and 3 years. I also have a second one for a spare that does the same.



Dunno about the purpose or value is of the "epoxy coating" on some of their pumps, other tham corrosion resistance in salty environments.



On the Cummins LP extender cable, the Cummins part # is 4025182...



NOW, for James and others following this thread, here is the Carter part # for their 4601 fuel pump, which is reportedly the same as the stock LP on our trucks:



Black Pump

High Pressure with 3/8'' NPT Inlet and Outlet

14-16 psi output

Requires Regulator

100 gph Free Flow



THERE - do you see where THAT pump "requires Regulator" - but none is installed on the ones DC uses in our trucks? I am increasingly convinced that regulation is specified on the higher PSI pumps to avoid potential fuel cavitation, whereas the lower PSI units are enough below cavitation PSI to not need a regulator - and that is likely why my lower PSI pusher was still functioning perfectly, even as my stock LP was cavitating profusely with my bad fuel mix a couple of weeks ago!





Good luck

 

[DSpencer]

113 thousand on my truck. One lift pump replaced under warrantee around fifty something thousand. Still can only pull pressure down just below 10 @ wot.

I must have good luck or fuel.

 

[mgoncalves]

I killed a carter 4601 mounted on the frame in less than two months. Stranded us about 200 miles from home, ended up being an expensive "cheap" pump.



Trying the Fass II now. So far, so good, we'll see after a few years.



Almost forgot, there was an important difference between the stocker and the 4601. The screen inside the 4601 was much finer than the stocker, and I believe it contributed to the early demise of mine, since it was in winter when it happened.



Matt

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I killed a carter 4601 mounted on the frame in less than two months. Stranded us about 200 miles from home, ended up being an expensive "cheap" pump.



Trying the Fass II now. So far, so good, we'll see after a few years.



Almost forgot, there was an important difference between the stocker and the 4601. The screen inside the 4601 was much finer than the stocker, and I believe it contributed to the early demise of mine, since it was in winter when it happened.



Matt

Matt, since you apparently disassembled the failed 4601, and clue as to exactly what failed, motor burnout, failed shaft coupler, etc?

 

[mgoncalves]

Couldn't tell ya what failed.



It didn't just stop working altogether, it would only build 1 psi with the engine on, and about 5 with it off. It sounded sick, I suspect the motor got to hot possibly from the tight strainer .



Matt

 

[Jefff929]

Just in the past 6 months I have replaced, all the syncronizers in my 6 speed, clutch, *** universal joints twice, Rear one 3 times, Carrier bearing twice, rear end rebuilt once, *** and all this has been replaced in the past 6 to 7 months . I just hit 140k miles and I did all the same stuff on my 01 dually exept that I put 3 trannys in it in a 2 month period and I had 98k on it when I sold it.

I did a little schooling on Automotive/Heavy Equipment. If the driveline spacers were not placed back correctly or setup properly from the get go, you can plan on more of the same. This includes timing the driveline, it is rough on U-joints and carrier berings when the angles are wrong. A competent trany shop should be able to correct this with a few washers and some time.

 

[diesel DOG]

I am POed at my truck also. Dodge is releasing a new design pump which will go in the tank. They will be installing it Tuesday. I have had a bunch of problems with my truck also. Motor is great and oil reports confirm it. I'll post when I know more.

 

[Texas Diesel]

I heard about that. They are discontinuing the LP as we know it as well.



How much did it cost? Parts/labor?

 

[millrat]

My thinkin is along the same lines as Gary's. A vane pump has a kind of built in overload protection-pressure gets too high ,vanes slide back into rotor= no flow. I think an in tank non positive disp pump WITH the block mounted stocker would be the best solution value wise. Pumps create flow(gph),resistance to flow creates pressure (which raises fuel temp). Once you develop positive press at inj pump inlet you are trying to force fuel in that it cant use.