Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Anyone running JET A for a long time?

[ESorensen]

Jet A works great! Like you said, a little lower on power, but its free! So is the gallon of used motor oil fom the crankcase!

 

[Moose Truck]

As a Helicopter Mechanic I have used Jet-A in the power trucks at work. That includes 2 Cummins 12 Valve 400 Hertz power trucks. The warning I have, as a Proud new VP 44 owner, is the 24 Valve's VP44 may be intolerant of Jet-A's lower Lubricity. The P7100 is Lubricated by the engine's lube system, the VP44 is lubbed by it's fuel. I don't know about the Common Rail's pump. Just, Be careful that your free fuel does not cost you $1200!!! Moose00 Oo.

 

[Renoram]

I have had access to Jet A "sump fuel" for more than 7 years now, as long as I have owned my truck new, but too chicken to try it. The oldest & most experienced ground equipment mechanic (probably in his late 70's by now & retired) here at the airport told me that it was fine to use- just to use 1 quart of ATF with every tank. Most all of the airline fuel servicing trucks he worked on daily had Cummins- they weighed around 80k pounds full & work all day. The way fuel cost are these days, I may have to take the leap. Would save a ton of $$$. A qt. of ATF every 34 gal is chicken feed compared to the cost of 34 gallons of fuel!

 

[raf2000]

Update. Been running it for a while, no problems. Sucked it all gone, back to #2 @ $2. 69 gallon. Gotta wait for him to re-plenish the stash. . Been stopped one time in 210K miles in Va for a fuel check. They were looking for off road dye, doubt they would have known the diff. in Jet A vs road diesel. They just slipped a clear tube down the tank and ?eye-balled" it. I sure can smell it when 100% jet A though.

 

[Renoram]

Update. Been running it for a while, no problems. Sucked it all gone, back to #2 @ $2. 69 gallon. Gotta wait for him to re-plenish the stash. . Been stopped one time in 210K miles in Va for a fuel check. They were looking for off road dye, doubt they would have known the diff. in Jet A vs road diesel. They just slipped a clear tube down the tank and ?eye-balled" it. I sure can smell it when 100% jet A though.

Who stopped you- hwy partol? What did they say about the sample? Good to go?



I bit the bullet a little over 1000 miles ago (104k miles) with Jet A sump, using the recommended 5% used oil lube mix. So far so good, the truck doesnt skip a beat but I do notice a reduction in power & milage- but with the Edge comp its no problem. I'm installing Jammer 2's this weekend. Should help make up for it!

 

[Warpig]

I fly in a helicopter quite often and usually refuel twice. I can't notice any difference in smell or appearance between Jet-A and #2 diesel.



Tim W.

 

[Nate]

Is JP8 the same as Jet A? We run JP8 in our trucks at work. Never had an issue. One of them has close to 80000 miles on it.

 

[raf2000]

Seemed to be special state cops. They had a check point along Hwy 17 sb north of I66 about 60 miles west of DC. They were stopping all diesel vehicles. Virginia has enough tax $$ to hire LOTS of cops.

 

[flyairam]

My '94 had many thousands of miles, and many years, run on straight Jet-A. No problems. Having said that, I would not personally run a VP-44 pump on straight jet because of the lubricity issues with that pump. A 50/50 ratio might be acceptable.



My new '06 (183 miles!) will only see a 50/50 ratio, it's not worth the risk to run a higher ratio than that while still under warrantee.



YMMV.

 

[Moose Truck]

I fly in a helicopter quite often and usually refuel twice. I can't notice any difference in smell or appearance between Jet-A and #2 diesel.



Tim W.

Tim, What do you fly?



I am (maybe was) a Crew Chief at Sikorsky. I See, Smell and Feel a big difference between Jet A and Diesel. Diesel is much more "Oilier", and it just smells deferent, even my wife can tell if it's work or Coffee Night Regards, Moose00

 

[Renoram]

Is JP8 the same as Jet A? We run JP8 in our trucks at work. Never had an issue. One of them has close to 80000 miles on it.

I've been doing some research on comparisons, definitions, differences of diesel vs Jet A. There is a website www.wikipedia.com that gives great insight to the make up of Jp4 vs Jp8. Just do searches on Jp4, Jp8, Jet A. It says that Jp8 which is the most commonly used military fuel is the same as Jet A. When I was in the USAF back in the late '60's we used Jp4. It explained that one of the main differences between Jp4 & Jp8 is the flash point is much lower in Jp4. Going to Jp8 made a lower probability for aircraft fires. Interesting reading for those with inquiring minds!

 

[Warpig]

MooseOO, Most of the time I fly in an OH-58.



Tim W.

 

[CORed]

For those of you adding Waste Oil, do most of you filter it or do you let the oil sit for awhile in the drain pan and then pour out the top portion into a container to add to the fuel while leaving the bottom quart or two in the pan?



Inquiring minds want to know. I haven't done it fearing that I should be using a filter screen of some sort. Sorry if this is a rabbit trail on this thread. Just shoot the rabbit if so.



Thanks,

Steve

 

[Moose Truck]

Renoram, And Nate; Jet A is the same as JP-5. The US Navy uses JP-5 for shipboard use only as it has the highest flashpoint. Interestingly, It has the highest heat content and gives the best range. JP-8 has some Gasoline in it and it's the same as Jet B-2. JP-8 is used by the USAF, and has a lower flash point, the USAF likes it because it's a Compirize between JP-5's low Flashpoint and JP-4's coldstart capabilities. JP-4, or Jet B is over %25 Gasoline and has the lowest flashpoint.



The interesting thing about the differences is when I worked on S-70 Blackhawks for Turkey we would fly with Jet A in them here, and there would be a layer of soot on the tail pipes. After we got them in country in Turkey, and ran one tank full (About 360 Gal. ) of JP-4 thru them the tail pipes would be clean!! Moose00

 

[Renoram]

Renoram, And Nate; Jet A is the same as JP-5. The US Navy uses JP-5 for shipboard use only as it has the highest flashpoint. Interestingly, It has the highest heat content and gives the best range. JP-8 has some Gasoline in it and it's the same as Jet B-2. JP-8 is used by the USAF, and has a lower flash point, the USAF likes it because it's a Compirize between JP-5's low Flashpoint and JP-4's coldstart capabilities. JP-4, or Jet B is over %25 Gasoline and has the lowest flashpoint.



The interesting thing about the differences is when I worked on S-70 Blackhawks for Turkey we would fly with Jet A in them here, and there would be a layer of soot on the tail pipes. After we got them in country in Turkey, and ran one tank full (About 360 Gal. ) of JP-4 thru them the tail pipes would be clean!! Moose00

What references are you using for your above information about Jp4, Jp5, Jp8 & Jet A ? It's interesting that information from different sources are not the same. This is what my source says : Quote- www.Wikipedia.org

Commercial Fuels

Commercial jet fuels had their origins in military fuels, but commercial use worldwide now greatly exceeds military use. As noted above Jet-A, similar to JP-8, is a pure kerosene, while Jet-B is a kerosene-gasoline mix similar to JP-4.

 

[Renoram]

For those of you adding Waste Oil, do most of you filter it or do you let the oil sit for awhile in the drain pan and then pour out the top portion into a container to add to the fuel while leaving the bottom quart or two in the pan?



Inquiring minds want to know. I haven't done it fearing that I should be using a filter screen of some sort. Sorry if this is a rabbit trail on this thread. Just shoot the rabbit if so.



Thanks,

Steve

I have only used about 125 gallons of jet A up to this point. I just let it settle for a while then pour it in the tank with the Jet A. Haven't had any problems yet.

 

[Moose Truck]

What references are you using for your above information about Jp4, Jp5, Jp8 & Jet A ? It's interesting that information from different sources are not the same. This is what my source says : Quote- www.Wikipedia.org

Commercial Fuels

Commercial jet fuels had their origins in military fuels, but commercial use worldwide now greatly exceeds military use. As noted above Jet-A, similar to JP-8, is a pure kerosene, while Jet-B is a kerosene-gasoline mix similar to JP-4.

Army Manuals for the UH-60 and Navy NATOPS for the SH-60B Helicopters I am (or was If this strike does not get settled :-{} ) a Crew Chief at Sikorsky Aircraft Moose00

 

[raf2000]

Huge difference in smell. Also, looks like jet A is NOT JP8 but I am no expert.



http://www.quartermaster.army.mil/pwd/JET_A1_vs_JP8.html



I would not worry about fuel lubricity on a common rail, electronically fired injector system. The VP44 is another story.

 

[Hohn]

Renoram, And Nate; Jet A is the same as JP-5. The US Navy uses JP-5 for shipboard use only as it has the highest flashpoint. Interestingly, It has the highest heat content and gives the best range. JP-8 has some Gasoline in it and it's the same as Jet B-2. JP-8 is used by the USAF, and has a lower flash point, the USAF likes it because it's a Compirize between JP-5's low Flashpoint and JP-4's coldstart capabilities. JP-4, or Jet B is over %25 Gasoline and has the lowest flashpoint.

The interesting thing about the differences is when I worked on S-70 Blackhawks for Turkey we would fly with Jet A in them here, and there would be a layer of soot on the tail pipes. After we got them in country in Turkey, and ran one tank full (About 360 Gal. ) of JP-4 thru them the tail pipes would be clean!! Moose00

Pretty sure there's no such thing as gasoline in a jet fuel.

Gasoline is a mixture of Octane, Heptane, and Nonane.

"Wide cut" fuels like JP1-JP4 are mixtures of Kerosene and Naptha. The amount of naptha is what makes them a "wide cut" fuel.


Later jet fuels were always compromises between fire safety and cold weather use. The military decided that they didn't need -60 freeze points, and removed a lot of the naptha that gave the first jet fuels their low freeze points but high fire risk (low flash points).

JP-8 is essentially the military grade of Jet A-1. JP-5 is not as close, as it's a heavier grade (the kerosene in it is heavier).


How big a difference does the naptha content make? Well, drop a match in a bucket of JP-5, and the match goes out.

Drop that same match in a bucket of JP-4, and they're making your funeral arrangements.

 

[WH6S]

This may or may not help explain some of the differances between the different grades of jet fuel.



History of Jet Fuel



Fuel for a piston-engine powered aircraft (usually a high-octane gasoline known as AvGas) has a low flash point to improve its ignition characteristics. Turbine engines can operate with a wide range of fuels, and jet-aircraft engines typically use fuels with higher flash points, which are less flammable and therefore safer to transport and handle. The first jet fuels were based on kerosene or a gasoline-kerosene mix, and most jet fuels are still kerosene-based.



Military Fuels

JP-1: The first U. S. specification for jet fuel (AN-F-32) was published in 1944. Known as JP-1 ("Jet Propellant 1") it was a kerosene with a -60 °C freezing point and flash point of min. 42 °C. The U. S. military soon sought fuels with better qualities, including absence of visible smoke and reduced production of contrails. In addition, the low freezing point requirement limited the availability of the fuel. JP-1 was superseded by various "wide-cut" fuels, mixtures of naphtha and kerosene.



JP-2 (1945) was an experimental fuel. It turned out to have nonsatisfactory viscosity and flammability.



JP-3 (1947-1951) was the second jet fuel in practical use. Its high vapor pressure resembled aviation gasoline, which at high altitudes caused vapor lock problems and fuel losses by boil off.



JP-4 (1951-1995) is a kerosene-gasoline mix, used in the U. S. Air Force until 1990-1996, when it was replaced by JP-8. Its NATO code is F-40. It is also called avtag. It has lower vapor pressure, freeze point at -60 °C and flash point at about -18 °C. It is similar to commercial Jet B.



JP-2, JP-3, and JP-4 had a lower flash point than JP-1, but were accepted due to their greater availability. As noted above, the JP designations were not universal; other countries developing jet aircraft issued their own specifications, but the resulting fuels were similar.



JP-5 (1952-present) was developed with a high flash point (min. 60 °C) for use aboard aircraft carriers where the risk from fire is particularly great. JP-5 remains the primary jet fuel for most navies. Its NATO code is F-44. It is also called avcat. Its freezing point is -46 °C. It does not contain antistatic additives.



JP-6 (1956) was developed with special characteristics to meet fuel requirements for the XB-70 aircraft. When the XB-70 was cancelled, the JP-6 specification was also cancelled. JP-6 was based on kerosene. It was similar to JP-5, but with freezing point at -54 °C and better thermal stability.



JPTS (1956) is a special fuel for the Lockheed U-2 aircraft. It has extreme thermal stability, low freezing point -53 °C, and flash point temperature min. 43 °C. It is specified by MIL-DTL-25524. It is still in use in the U-2 and newer TR-1 aircrafts. It is a highly refined kerosene with a CJFA-5 additive.



JP-7 (published in 1970, but developed earlier) was a special fuel designed to meet the stringent requirements of the aircraft that became the SR-71 Blackbird. JP-7 is notable in that it is not a distillate fuel but is created from special blending stocks in order to have very low (<3%) concentration of aromatic hydrocarbons, and almost no sulfur, oxygen, and nitrogen impurities. It is specified by MIL-DTL-38219. It has low vapor pressure and high thermal oxidation stability.



JP-8 (1978-present): In the 1990s the U. S. Air Force switched from JP-4 (a wide-cut fuel) to JP-8 (kerosene-based), which, among other characteristics, has a higher flashpoint and is less carcinogenic, although it has a strong odor and an oily touch and is relatively unpleasant to handle. Its NATO code is F-34. It is specified by MIL-DTL-83133 and British Defence Standard 91-87. It is similar to the commercial Jet A1.



JP-8+100 is a version of JP-8 with an additive that increases its thermal stability by 100 °F (56 °C). The additive is a combination of a surfactant, metal deactivator, and an antioxidant. Its NATO code is F-37.



Commercial Fuels

Commercial jet fuels had their origins in military fuels, but commercial use worldwide now greatly exceeds military use. As noted above Jet-A, similar to JP-8, is a pure kerosene, while Jet-B is a kerosene-gasoline mix similar to JP-4.