Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Are my new mods suppose to be this loud??

[Clmsnow]

That's all I needed to know, thanks guys. Now I just need to make up my mind. Think the bigger injectors will help her spool up quicker and give me some of that bottom end back?

 

[Hohn]

I'd suspect that Mach 4s will spool almost any single as good as it can be spooled.



jlh

 

[Luke Warmwater]

I'd suspect that Mach 4s will spool almost any single as good as it can be spooled.



jlh

I'm suspecting that my Mach6s will spool a big single even better than my old Mach4s :-laf

 

[Clmsnow]

Got to do some more testing this weekend. On 5x5 at 7200ft elevation, I was only hitting 29. 5psi boost and 1435*EGT. Highest I have seen the EGT's yet. Horrible lag on the bottom... at elevation it really takes awhile to spool up. Can't say I was really impresses. Ran it again at sea level, 100* outside temp, on 5x5, 34. 5psi boost and 1315* EGT. Obviously not as much lag at lower elevation, but I still think this turbo takes too long to spool up. Crusing down the freeway, 1850rpm, 70mph, 3. 7psi boost, 740* EGT. Any suggestions?

 

[RacinDuallie]

Got to do some more testing this weekend. On 5x5 at 7200ft elevation, I was only hitting 29. 5psi boost and 1435*EGT. Highest I have seen the EGT's yet. Horrible lag on the bottom... at elevation it really takes awhile to spool up. Can't say I was really impresses. Ran it again at sea level, 100* outside temp, on 5x5, 34. 5psi boost and 1315* EGT. Obviously not as much lag at lower elevation, but I still think this turbo takes too long to spool up. Crusing down the freeway, 1850rpm, 70mph, 3. 7psi boost, 740* EGT. Any suggestions?

Give it fuel... ... ... ... ... ... . still driving around on kill I see... ... . more fuel should lower that... ..... get that turbo to spool qwicker and put a smile on your face sooner- and get that box back on to drive around setting- instead of kill... ... ... .

 

[Newf Limo]

"I don't mind it, my wife hates it, but is that normal?? "



Certainly not unheard of!!!!

 

[Clmsnow]

RD. I run the box on 3x2 99% of the time... I was just running it on kill for testing purposes... and of course to take some friends for test rides. Was it just elevation that was keeping my boost so low?? Mach 3's or 4's???

 

[RacinDuallie]

RD. I run the box on 3x2 99% of the time... I was just running it on kill for testing purposes... and of course to take some friends for test rides. Was it just elevation that was keeping my boost so low?? Mach 3's or 4's???

Thin air the higher up you go in elevation... ... . 4's

You had the box set for fat fuel- w-nil air, probally woulda done better on a lower setting

 

[PC12Driver]

Dude, yer killin' me. Earlier in this thread you told him to keep the 14cm housing because he won't like the egts at full throttle. And now, in response to his concerns about low boost and high egts at altitude you suggest MORE FUEL? How's that supposed to help his egts? You're suggesting a 70+hp increase in fuel to help LOWER egts? You gotta be kidding me!



Not to mention the fact that the only time the extra fuel will make the turbo spool faster is when YOU ARE USING THE EXTRA FUEL. So partial throttle spool will remain the same (normal driving). But temps will rise faster because of the increased rate of fueling from the injectors. So he'll end up with a truck that has great spool and good cooling at full throttle, but still has lag and probably higher egts during partial throttle acceleration (especially at altitude). Nothing like having to lay into it and make a huge cloud of smoke from every stop to get the turbo to spool.



And the solution that WILL cool the midrange better, get rid of some of the lag, and will improve performance (increase boost) at altitude, and IS FREE, still hasn't been tried yet? I don't get it. I know it's cool to throw money and bigger/better parts at our trucks, but what's wrong with tuning what you have for the best performance? Especailly if it's FREE to try?



RD, I'm guessing "my garage" isn't anywhere near the mountains, cause if you've been there you'd know that more fuel isn't the answer (I've been there and tried different configs in case you're wondering). You need a tighter turbo. How about filling in your truck profile with your mods so we can see the direction that the advice is coming from, too?

 

[RacinDuallie]

PC- He's going to be continuing the bombing- I gather- and has already been on different threads here asking about injectors- Mad ECM- ect. His DD2's he has now is fine for upgrading a stock turboed truck- now he has the HTBG- DD2's are a little weak now- When he is not at high elevation he has low EGT's with his Comp on 5 x 5 (kill) I suggested for him to keep his 14 housing and find a livable setting on his Comp- IF he plans on Bombing- which he said he'd like to change his injectors. You suggested for him to change the housing to a 12- so what's gonna happen to his EGT's when he has enough to do the injectors? Seems to me that this truck spends most of it's life at lower altitudes back and forth to work- and spends the weekend up at higher elevations-occasionally.
I suggested to keep the 14 with the thoughts of continued Bombs-
You suggested the 12 housing and although that seems fine in idea but DD2's are still weak for his HTBG... ... ... ... ... ... ... .....


Even the most perfectly sealevel tuned truck will perform weak when at altitude no matter how you slice it. And his higher egt's resulted from not getting the turbo to spool qwick enough in the thin air, again you have the right idea if he were to keep the DD2's the 12 housing would help it- slightly... . Those DD2's are still gonna be weak... ... .
And his next Bomb would have him back on the phone with HTT for yet another swap in housings( if he followed your advice) I'm looking to save him the headache of doing that... . Which is why I suggested 4's and to turn the box off of KILL ( 5x5 ) I even stated that his truck would have performed better @ a lower setting in the thin air.

 

[Fishin Guide]

I agree with RD. Not tool mention the fact that most edm of a larer size will provide more power and less smoke than he sees now.



The 14cm housing leaves something to grow into. And if he was never, ever gonna add 1 more horsepower (yeah right) it would be great to try the 12cm housing.



Leave the turbo alone, get bigger sticks and turn the sublevel on the box down. Altitude requires a different setup and driving style than at sea level. It depends on where you live (elevation) what you use the truck for and what your plans are for in the future.



I have recieved a few PMs on this and I am happy to share my experiences. I started out in a similar way and wish I had started where I am today. And I ain't done yet either I am sure.



Dave

 

[PC12Driver]

I guess I'm having a hard time with the fact that the guy has a chance to try two different housings back to back, at no charge, and there are folks on here telling him not to. Folks that have no idea what Clmsnow's driving habits are, and from what I can tell, have zero experience with the HTBG, let alone how it behaves with different housing sizes.



High Tech Turbo, the guys that mod and sell the HTBG, suggested that the 12cm housing might be a better fit for his driving and mods. Now for a quick show of hands; who here that responded has more experience with the HTBG than HTT?



Potentially higher drive pressures from the 12cm housing could cause higher egts. But what happens to drive pressures when the wastegate opens? (and doesn't the HTBG wastegate work on all 6 cylinders?)



Wouldn't that be neat if the egt increase was negligible with the 12cm (very possible - see above paragraph). I didn't say non-existent; there will be some. But if it's less than 100* at full throttle? 1350* is still very acceptable for peak egts, especially if he gains some of the daily driveability back down low. But we don't know, since no one here has the experience, and ya'll are talking Clmsnow out of experimenting.



And how can we speculate what the HTBG and the 12cm will do with the Mach 4s? Who's run this combo? How much more will egt's increase going from the honed DD injectors to the more efficient EDM's? So to say that this combo would be too hot would just be speculation based on guesses at this point. It could actually be quite safe for the occasional street race or e-ticket ride. And 2cm worth of egt increase will hardly be noticed when you open up 500hp on a turbo that is only reccommended for 425hp. (and has anyone mentioned studs or o-rings yet?)



I have also seen Clmsnow asking about the bigger injectors and the Catcher on other threads in what appears to be an attempt to get rid of some lag. But it doesn't seem that it has been made clear that extra fuel only spools the turbo faster when you're accelerating heavily. The other 95% of the time during daily driving THERE IS NO CHANGE IN SPOOLUP. I'd hate to see him spend $$$ on injectors or a Catcher if a simple, FREE, housing change could get rid of some of the lag 100% of the time, not just at full throttle.



Like I said, it's a FREE experiment. Worst case; he has to swap the 14 back in and send the 12 back to HTT for the price of shipping. But he will know the FACTS and will never have the "what ifs".

 

[RacinDuallie]

He can experiment all he wants to-

the bottom line is-






The DD2's will still be weak... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

 

[Clmsnow]

Is it the size of the injector themself or the brand? Suppose I had Mach 2's? Same deal? I hear the Mach are much better on the bottom then DD's.

 

[PC12Driver]

He can experiment all he wants to-



the bottom line is-













The DD2's will still be weak... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

... if you call 430hp from the II's and Comp weak...



... and the HTBG/14 will still be laggy for normal driving, no matter how much fueling he adds.



So if he wants faster spool under heavy acceleration, bigger injectors are the way to go, at the price of higher egt's.



And if he wants better spool at all times, including heavy acceleration, he can go with the smaller housing, at the price of higher egt's.



And it would be free.



Sound correct?

 

[PC12Driver]

Is it the size of the injector themself or the brand? Suppose I had Mach 2's? Same deal? I hear the Mach are much better on the bottom then DD's.

The # of the injector is relative to the brand of the injector. Mach 2s are rated at 105hp and the DD2s are rated at 80hp. Mach 1. 5s are comparable to the DD2s power-wise. But the EDM design of the F1 injectors is a bit more efficient compared to the older honed out versions, so you'll get a little less smoke and a little less egt for a comparable hp.

 

[Clmsnow]

I thought that with the stock turbo the thing ran pretty good, only problem was EGT's were a little high and I was up to 41psi of boost and everyone told me I was asking for trouble pushing that turbo so much. I am only hitting 35-36max of boost with this new turbo. If I were able to get more boost out of it wouldn't it help lower the EGT's... epsecially at elevation? Seems like 29. 5 psi at elevation is not enough boost. As for injectors, wouldn't something like Mach 2's be a little better power-wise compared to the DDII's and help with EGT's? And if the EGT's stayed the same... or lowered I would think I could run the 12cm housing and get back some of my bottom end. Fricking thing wasn't coming on until 2000rpm at elevation. What's the size of the stock turbo housing??

 

[PC12Driver]

Everything else the same, adding more fuel will almost always result in higher egt's.



Your stock housing was a 9cm. Quite a jump, eh? But like the injectors, this won't be a direct comparison. The HTBG will behave diferently than a comparable Holset. But for a Holset, a 2cm smaller housing will drop your light-off rpm by about 200rpm.

 

[Fishin Guide]

I thought that with the stock turbo the thing ran pretty good, only problem was EGT's were a little high and I was up to 41psi of boost and everyone told me I was asking for trouble pushing that turbo so much. I am only hitting 35-36max of boost with this new turbo. If I were able to get more boost out of it wouldn't it help lower the EGT's... epsecially at elevation? Seems like 29. 5 psi at elevation is not enough boost. As for injectors, wouldn't something like Mach 2's be a little better power-wise compared to the DDII's and help with EGT's? And if the EGT's stayed the same... or lowered I would think I could run the 12cm housing and get back some of my bottom end. Fricking thing wasn't coming on until 2000rpm at elevation. What's the size of the stock turbo housing??

Please keep in mind that everything changes when you go up in elevation. It sounds simple, but, the air is less dense than at sea level. There just isn't as much air to "burn". Your engine does not know that, so it just keeps dumping in the same level of fuel that it did at sea level. Too much fuel+ not enough air= lotsa heat, lag and smoke.



Boost is a number, it does not in itself does not dictate the engines ability to clear smoke and cool the charge. While your stock turbo was pushing tons more boost, it was less effecient at cooling the EGTs because it was heating the air over and above your current setup.



Since we have talked in PMs and I think I understand your useage of the truck, I think the right move is to try the housings if you can do it completely free. I suspect that you will be returning to the 14cm housing when you find out that you have higher drive pressures than you may like. Spool will be better, but not much and you'll find out where the choke point is when you hit the go pedal on the freeway and a little ricer walks from you.



The Mach series injectors are much cleaner than the sticks you currently have. I have had DD2s and even after trying another set, they still smoked way more than my M4s. Both examples with the box off. Also, my turbo spools lots earlier with the M4s and smoke clears in a fraction of the time of the DD2s. This is a change of only sticks. No electronics, wastegate changes, alignment of the planets, ect.



I can and do drive my truck in 5X5 all the time, I control smoke with my right foot. From a stop I can black an intersection, so what? If I am rolling along and tip into the throttle, I get a light haze that quickly clears.



So, would the housing exchange be free? Is a 200 rpm drop gonna really make a difference with your driving style? I am all for experimenting when it makes sense, but I think you abeating a dead horse with those DD2s.



And yes you can add o-rings and studs and even weld the head to the block. But, add 35ish psi, on my truck, I would not be really worried about it. Add some studs down the road if you think there is a chance of running higher boost pressures. BTW, you can adjust the wastegates on quite a few turbos out there, so you can stay below a given boost and still control impeller speed. Many times, adding boost just adds heat. You'll have to experiment there as well.



Dave

 

[RacinDuallie]

I have to thank Dave for taking the time explaining that above.....

Clmsnow you can change the housings if its free and you want to experiment. But I too think you will be unhappy when you get on it for grins..... for a slight- very slight improvement? Either way with the housings- the Mach 4's would make a nice streetable setup that'll spool that turbo faster and cleaner and get this: earlier! But to change the housings for a minimal loss of bottom lag only to gain an earlier choke point is like defeating the purpose of swapping to the HTBG. Tuning to get the optimum power that is useable across the range is where it's at. PC is somewhat correct but- What I think he's not forgetting is what I keep trying to tell is THE DD2's WILL STILL BE WEAK!! No matter which housing you choose... ... personally I'm all for experimenting but like I said: They'll still be weak to spin that turbo earlier and with the 12 you'll lose the grin factor when your out trying to impress yourself and your friends- because that choke point is moved... ... . And I also suspect that you'll be callin HTT back for housing that you already had- waste of time? No- it was an experiment- but not all experiments are successful anyhow... ... ... ... ...