Are we in a Constitutional Crisis?

[fest3er]

Do you think federal income taxes, the IRS and the Federal Reserve are legal and constitutional? The links below may give you pause for thought.



Basically, We The People filed a formal "Petition for Redress of Grievances" with the government, as specified in the 1st amendment; the government have refused to respond.



The first is an intro to the results of their forum on 2/27-2/28 to which IRS and Justice promised to send representatives, but later chickened out. (I've ordered the CDROMs; I'll be able to report mroe specifically later. )



http://www.givemeliberty.org/mailroom/2002-03-05.htm



The second is the list of initial 'statements of facts' (more than 200) that We The People want the government to answer. They walk through the non-ratification of the 16th amendment, the ambiguities in the tax law in the US Code, and other related subjects.



http://www.givemeliberty.org/bartlettresponse/draftquestions01-22-02.html

Enjoy!



Fest3er

 

[baby.driver]

YES. It has been ongoing since before the civil war. It has become irrelevant.



Jay

 

[KMeek]

Please please please spare us from this tripe. This is the same crap that the Freemen here in Montana espoused that seems to have as its base appeal the ignorant. Without the IRS how do you propose that we pay for our Armed forces to defend us from Osama Bin Laden? The written materials provided are nothing more than half truths with a totally uninformed spin by someone that probably never obtained a very good education. I have seen similar materials from the Freeman. Frankly, it is all junk in its worst form.

 

[Sled Puller]

Do you think federal income taxes, the IRS and the Federal Reserve are legal and constitutional?





They are not, and that is a fact.

We the sheeple.

 

[Partyat33]

Sled Puller is absolutely correct. We ARE sheeple and its not legal.

Unfortunetly I cannot see a time when there will be enough interest from the 'masses' to get it changed.

 

[joel]

Yeah, sheeple for buying into this drivel.

The drivel of taxation is illegal, that is. What part of Article 1, Section 8:



"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; "



And Section 9, as repealed by the 16th Amendment (adopted in 1913) don't you understand?



Section 9

"No capitation, or other direct, tax shall be laid, unless in proportion to the census or enumeration herein before directed to be taken. "



16th Amendment

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration. "



don't you get? Seems pretty evident to me. Of course, I guess I may only think I know how to read.



To me, sheeple are people who listen to zealots and adopt their ideas without actually reading the material in question themselves. BAAAAAAAAA!

 

[THerman]

Actually I'm not sure I buy the illegality of this. They did get the amendment... . BUT the amendment does not give them the power to spend our money on the CR*P that they do... .



I support it's use for military, for civil courts, but NOWHERE in the constitution or it's amendments do you find any authority for the government act as a charity!

 

[Sled Puller]

Drivel.

Sounds like fighting words.

 

[Steve M]

To me, sheeple are people who listen to zealots and adopt their ideas without actually reading the material in question themselves. BAAAAAAAAA!



Hey!!! I resemble that remark! I listen to Rush every day so I don't need to read or research. He tells me all I need to know... The truth and nothing but the truth as he sees it. :{

NOT!

We had the Keystone Society here and one of my past co-workers fell into it and dang near went to jail over it. He didn't do any homework. He just followed the hype...

 

[Sled Puller]

To me, sheeple are the ones that keep asking for the government to babysit them, Pay taxes with a smile because the government "knows best", and never,ever, question a law.



There are more than two sides to this issue, with extremeists on both ends. And common sense in the middle.

I never signed on to some of these characters, as from what I have seen is their"cause" is driven by profit.



Keep in mind, an Amendment was made to ban booze. Another one came along and canceled that one out.



If I would have been alive at that time, I would have fought it as against my "RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS!"

I certainly would not have followed along, the 'feds know best"path! Protecting us from alcohol, they were our pals.





Do a little research and cut through the hype, and DRIVEL, there is enough evidence for me to SERIOUSLY question the legality of the income tax.



Gene

 

[The patriot]

KMeek, I didnt know we didnt have any military before income taxes existed?

Unfortunatly, much of our taxes goes to crack mommys squirting out babies, oh then there is the milti million dollar study if the african dung beetle etc. etc. .

If we could just eliminate social programs,stupid, expensive studies,and make the peolpe that vote on these things ACCOUNTABLE!! we probibally wouldnt need an income tax, or could reduce it drastically.

I was watching TV the other day,I think it was on O'reilly factor. (One of the few shows I watch) The news story was about a multi million dollar construction project to build housing for the wherefare people in Philly, Pa.

They spent $220,000 per house (I dont live in a friggin $220,000 house??) and "sell" them to these select individuals for something like 50,000 each!!! I think they built several hundred of them.

It's BS spending like this that assures you will always have to pay income taxes.

Eric

 

[JConley]

First off for those that paid your raxes... Thanks since you have paid my salary for the last 5 years (active duty ARMY )



Just curious... for those that dont like the way your tax dollars are spent, do you vote at every election? Have you supported political canditates by helping them get elected? Do you belong to a political action commitee?? Most of america sits by the sidelines then starts whining when they dont like what they see in Washington. If you dont vote, you are part of the problem.



Just my . 02C ( Oops. . since I am a Govt employee, I guess that equals $559,034. 02



Protecting the constitution from enemies both foreign, domestic and stupid.

 

[Sled Puller]

Your welcome, JConley!



Voter and letter writer here.

 

[fest3er]

Re: Yeah, sheeple for buying into this drivel.

The drivel of taxation is illegal, that is.

...

And Section 9, as repealed by the 16th Amendment (adopted in 1913) don't you understand?

...

16th Amendment

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration. "

Perhaps, if you re-read the list of 'statements of fact', you will see that there are serious questions as to whether the 16th Amendment was properly ratified. The evidence M. Shulz has presented would seem to indicate that the 16th Amendment was not legally ratified and is, along with all laws based on it, invalid.



You should already see that the government is, and has been, negligent in refusing, outright, to response to a formal 'Petition for Redress of Grievances', which brings us another step closer to tyranny and despotism, which are two of the things we fought against in the latter half of the 18th century.



I didn't post this information in order to get people to blindly follow any dogma. I posted it because I believe there is reasonable truth to it, and I expected my fellow TDR members, if interested, would read it at their leisure and would make up their own minds. Was I mistaken in holding my fellow members in such regard? I didn't think so then, and I still don't think so now.



Fest3er

 

[mimprevento]

Taxes

Constitutional, legal, and necessary- a bunch of con artists holed up in a cabin in Montana borrowing a cup of sugar¸from the Unabomber never sold that crap. They would also never have the means to raise an army and project power as a necessary implementation of foreign policy-we will spend Trillions in responding to Sept 11th and I have never been more proud to enable Congress to respond to terror- except when I was a Naval Officer responding to it in Beirut after our Barracks was bombed-Don't pay your taxes and tell it to a federal judge see what he thinks about the 16th Amendment while you are on your way to jail !!!

 

[Power Wagon]

Re: Taxes

Originally posted by mimprevento

Constitutional, legal, and necessary- a bunch of con artists holed up in a cabin in Montana borrowing a cup of sugar¸from the Unabomber never sold that crap. They would also never have the means to raise an army and project power as a necessary implementation of foreign policy-we will spend Trillions in responding to Sept 11th and I have never been more proud to enable Congress to respond to terror- except when I was a Naval Officer responding to it in Beirut after our Barracks was bombed-Don't pay your taxes and tell it to a federal judge see what he thinks about the 16th Amendment while you are on your way to jail !!!

There ARE serious questions about the legality of the 16th Amendment. If the Supreme Court were to rule on it, and rule that it was not, the IRS and income tax WOULD be instantly gone.



That doesn't mean that the federal government cannot have taxes and cannot raise money.



Many people have long promoted the notion of replacing the federal income tax with a federal retail sales tax. It is estimated the cost of just complying, (not paying, just c omplying) with the tax laws costs 500 billion dollars... and that was when our federal budget was 1/2 of what it is now.



Sales taxes are efficient, in that it is relatively easy to administer, does not interfere with business operations, nor involve complex record keeping or tax lawyers to figure out.



I like the idea, because I think the federal government knows far too much about us. It should do it's thing and we do ours. And it should stay out of our lives.



But that's just one alternative. Before income taxes, the only funding the feds had was tarriffs and excise taxes. It was plenty.



The federal government was never intended to directly tax individuals, NOR give money taken from one individual to another. The income tax was instituted because a certain group of individuals wanted the federal government to have the power to directly control people.

 

[CGoyette]

so your and idiot!

this kills me that people don't understand FREEDOM ISN'T FREE!





There is a diverance in paying to much but America needs some form of income tax ... . just not one so dam dumb as this post.





flat tax no DEDUCTIONS any more than 10 percent is criminal!



You make a million you pay 100K you make 50K you pay 5K you make 10K you pay 1K



FLAT TAX IS FAIR!!!!!!! IF YOU HAVE NO DEDUCTIONS!!!!!

 

[Champane Flight]

No

No I won't bellyache over the legality of taxes. No, I will not trust my goverment. I trust them as much as I trust the Al Queda.

I will pay do my taxes this year the same as evey year and pay or get a refund. I feel that it is a small price to pay for the freedoms I enjoy. Where else can you call the goverment a bunch of parasites and get away with it.



I think a change is on the way. The new tax laws that the Bush cut was given on are more complicated than his national budget. Tax lawyers are saying they cannot even make sense of it. God save us from another tax cut! Just like our goverment to give us a break, then give us the shaft.....

 

[Sled Puller]

I do not understand how a few of the above posters got,



"We don't want to pay any taxes, and we believe the unabomber was a good guy. "



Everybody on here realizes our Government needs money from us to operate, otherwise it is not by the people, now is it?





But the tax system we have is a black hole, and is gutting the very Freedom that lets us complain, and is getting ever closer to the S and C word.





Will anyone worry about those poor IRS agents and accountants and tax lawyers that will be layed off?

I didn't think so.



Taxes can be collected fairly, enough to run the country smoothly, without cutting our throats, without the IRS, and spending can be cut.



IF we demand it. same old same old is not good enough any more, vote them out if they don't produce, get out of your easy chair!

 

[FATCAT]

We're always in a Constitutional crisis

When did the Federal Gov’t become our masters? The statement that “…it is a small price to pay for our freedoms…” referring to taxes, runs counter to the ideals that brought forth this country

if we are to assume that we are freemen and that power comes forth from the people to the gov’t not visa-versa.



Certain taxes are necessary in order to the federal govt to execute its Constitutionally prescribed Duties. The key word is “Constitutionally prescribed” … military, law enforcement, judiciary, general welfare, etc… as outlined in Section 8.



Two things need to be pointed out:

- General welfare does not mean targeted welfare e. g. social

security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc…

- “. . shall be uniform throughout the United States. ” One would

assume that a uniform rate would be applied like a sales tax.

So how can a progressive income tax be valid.



Unfortunately all this talk about what would be a better tax system is all academic, the federal tax system of today has nothing to do with raising money for Constitutionally prescribed uses, but has everything to do with controlling the lives of the people in this country and creating a mechanism for which politicians can perpetually get reelected by buying votes with the people’s money.



Does anyone here believe that the feds will curb their appetite in the future? Do you believe that your 401K or pension money will be around 15 or 20 years from now for you to withdraw? If you do, you are blind to the inevitable progression of power retained by the few.



The only way things will ever change will be when enough people take the “I’m mad as hell, and I won’t take it any more!” stance and slit a lot of politician’s throats, burn D. C. to the ground and reconvene the Continental Congress once again and start all over. See if you can find out where we are on this chart at this web site. #ad




So until then, bend over, grease it up and take it like a man!