Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Auto Trans and Triple Disc Converters

[justinp20012500]

Mark in case you are not aware of it the stator is what allows converters to be tighter, the reason that DTT doesn't run a loose converter is because we are replace converters that are loose (stock) if a guy wants a loose TC then why up grade. We aren't in the business of giving a guy what he got and change huge dollars for that. If a guy thinks a 3 disk is the way to go and wants it loose, then use a stock style stator and use a 3 disk, you could build that set-up for around $600.

You have to replace the "loose" stator to keep your sinlge disk from smoking the lock up clutch.



Any single disk TC out there being used for drag racing/sled pulling/ towing at above factory power levels that does not have a lower then factory stall stator will fail!! PERIOD!!



Dosen't DTT add more friction to the piston?? If that is so, there would effectively be two friction clutchs that are sealing against the convert face.



So does that still make a DTT a "single disk" ??



Right?







Justin

 

[Bandit1]

for my information how many of the fastest trucks that were listed above are running the ford trans? i know for a fact that with the difference in gear ratios it is a faster trans by i believe . 2 seconds at least.

that is a common sense statement, or at least i understand it to be about having a loose stator causing the engine to rev to make power, then when lockup is signaled a 1:1 power changed is instantaneous causing slipping. so to eliminate 2 different power multiplying devices build them to be similar, my understanding.

haha i am going to need some more beer to continue reading this thread, good info as long as it stays info and no bashing.

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Justin I thought you knew everything about TC's why are you asking questions?



Justin why don't you give a phone # so that we can have people call you with technical calls that way they can see your level of expertise.



The reason that we don't offer a loose converter is because most people don't want a TC that feels the way a stock TC feel. Maybe some do.



David you do know that when a truck spools on the line there will be no lag, because boost has been built. I bet that the fast trucks would be faster if they had a proper(tight) fluid coupling. Most of the trucks that you mentioned are fairly light which is one of the reasons that they are so fast, although I know you don't believe that weight or rotating mass effects speed and acceleration. Maybe you should apply with some NHRA race teams because they are wasting millions of dollars a year buying light parts (rotating). You may fool some guys on here, but try explaining to nascar teams that rotating mass doesn' t mean anything.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Mark in case you are not aware of it the stator is what allows converters to be tighter, the reason that DTT doesn't run a loose converter is because we are replace converters that are loose (stock) if a guy wants a loose TC then why up grade. We aren't in the business of giving a guy what he got and change huge dollars for that. If a guy thinks a 3 disk is the way to go and wants it loose, then use a stock style stator and use a 3 disk, you could build that set-up for around $600.

I guess you haven't read all of my posts If you had it would be intuitively obvious that I am aware of everything you just said.



the ATS stator is not stock but does not cause the detrimentally low stalls that 91+% TCs are notorious for.



I could care less about having an extremely efficient fluid coupling. I want excelllent torque multiplication and a high enough stall that I don't have to fog for moquitos at every stoplight. Then I'll rely on the lockup clutch to give me 100% efficiency instead of 9X%

You have to replace the "loose" stator to keep your sinlge disk from smoking the lock up clutch.



Any single disk TC out there being used for drag racing/sled pulling/ towing at above factory power levels that does not have a lower then factory stall stator will fail!! PERIOD!!



Dosen't DTT add more friction to the piston?? If that is so, there would effectively be two friction clutchs that are sealing against the convert face.



So does that still make a DTT a "single disk" ??



Right?

Adding more friction material to the piston increases the surface area that is used to clamp the force it is not the same as adding another disc. Using the addition of friction material requires an increase in line pressure to increase the holding force. you are distributing the pressure over a wider area so you get no net increase in holding power without an increase in line pressure.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Most of the fast trucks on the track that don't run nitrous run a triple disk. Nitrous will spool the turbo and eliminate the lag that a tight converter will cause. The fastest stock transmission so far belongs to Jeff Garmon, Suncoast. Next is Bill Fletcher, Suncoast. Then Richard Mansen, ATS, then Joe Helman, Suncoast (I believe), then Darren Morrison, Suncoast, then Matt Stuckey, Suncoast. These are all between 9's and 11. 0's in the quarter. Toss out Joe and they are all in #2 only. Making power on a dyno is one thing, putting it to the track is where the transmission will be stressed the most and where the goodones will shine.



But Dennis Perry runs a single disk Sun Coast and holds the DHRA record at 10. 96. But since he runs Nitrous, he has a more efficient converter and the single held all year. Not one failure with his transmission.

Interesting observation about the nitrous.



Richard does have the highest Dyno #s I know of but you are right, he isn't the fastest.

 

[DavidTD]

Justin I thought you knew everything about TC's why are you asking questions?



Justin why don't you give a phone # so that we can have people call you with technical calls that way they can see your level of expertise.



The reason that we don't offer a loose converter is because most people don't want a TC that feels the way a stock TC feel. Maybe some do.



David you do know that when a truck spools on the line there will be no lag, because boost has been built. I bet that the fast trucks would be faster if they had a proper(tight) fluid coupling. Most of the trucks that you mentioned are fairly light which is one of the reasons that they are so fast, although I know you don't believe that weight or rotating mass effects speed and acceleration. Maybe you should apply with some NHRA race teams because they are wasting millions of dollars a year buying light parts (rotating). You may fool some guys on here, but try explaining to nascar teams that rotating mass doesn' t mean anything.

Stefan, where you came up with that response is beyond me. I have never said rotating mass doesn't make a difference in anything. As a matter of fact, I said earlier here that I figured the weight of a triple disk WOULD hurt power but I was proven WRONG. As far as your comment on being light... they meet the rules they race within. Every truck I mentioned with the exception of Jeff's drag truck is a factory bodied truck. Dennis Perry's truck is basically stock with a full cage. Call it what you want but you are wrong.

 

[justinp20012500]

Justin I thought you knew everything about TC's why are you asking questions?



Justin why don't you give a phone # so that we can have people call you with technical calls that way they can see your level of expertise.



The reason that we don't offer a loose converter is because most people don't want a TC that feels the way a stock TC feel. Maybe some do.

Never claimed I know everything about torque converters. I just know the reason why they fail, and how to make them last.



The reason you won't answer the question about the lower stall is because I am right.



You cannot build a single disk torque converter with a stock stall stator and have it survive in a high HP truck,



You CAN build a multi disk converter with a stock stall stator and have it survive in a high HP truck. (Yes it would suck and the change from fluid coupling to lock up would be jolting. And it probably would break STOCK input shafts)



On edit: Stick to asking/answering technical questions and not personal jabs.

 

[joaker]

Just out of curiousity, who is it that builds the DTT Torque Convertors?

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Just out of curiousity, who is it that builds the DTT Torque Convertors?

Last I heard it was TCS.

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

David I don't know where you tested it but again you could make millions selling tc's and other rotational parts that are heavier that don't loose acceleration. Period.

I didn't say that they(light trucks) where cheating I just said that they where lighter which is one of the reason that they are faster.



Mark,

Has Maddog made more that 886hp at a dyno show, I heard at the ATS show he made 733hp.



As far as the TC discussion goes I won't even bother with you cause I really don't think you understand. I can promise you that a DTT converter will have alot better Torque Multiplication than the TC's you use. Period. All DTT Drag racers use lock-up going down the track, they just use fluid coupling to accelerate out of the hole, even wonder why 7000+ lbs 4x4 with DTT transmission can 60 foot low 1. 5*'s, it's because they are transferring the power, there TC's don't feel like they going in Neutral when Big hp is applied.

Ask Trevor Wood, who tried I believe 5-7 TC's from the company that you love, before realizing that DTT should be tried then he picked-up over 1/2 sec.



Mark you can respond back if you want but I'm done with you.

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

TCS hasn't built our TC's for a while now. Joaker I think that your gonna stay curious.



Justin the reason that I don't answer your question is because I haven't tested them that way and it is obvious you are fishing. I believe that I have said before that loose converters are a waste of time.



I'm sorry that you felt I took a jab at you, it wasn't meant that way. I do however feel that you are offering a lot of free advice, and are pointing people in certain directions, they should at least be able to get ahold of you when/ if they find out they were advised wrong. Remember some people may feel that you are a transmission guy, and follow your advice. I remember talking with you and I know that you were not a trans guy. If we steer someone wrong they know where to find us.



Use the input shafts as an example, we have 20 - 300m shafts upstairs that we bought 1 1/2 years ago that my dad will not sell because we know that they aren't even in the same league as Opies IE shafts. They are even made by the guys that you listed to call, if cheap is what you want or whoever for that matter you can have them for $200 as scrap, but there is no guarantee, because we know that they are not the best available and that's what we demand for our customer base. .

 

[joaker]

The shafts (input/output) used in the NADP race transmission is the same as those used in the DTT units, either that, or maybe the mysterious "cheap" shafts held out at better than 1000lb/ft or torque, saw with my own eyes on a mustang dyno a month ago. I was also informed that the resisdent webmaster messed up on the number of discs, as there are actually six in the race unit also. Just needed to clarify... .

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Guys, this conversation is hovering very near (if not just over) the line regarding the guidelines. PLEASE don't make me have to wade through this and hack and slash it to bits. Please take the time to review the guidelines again and abide by them - https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72098 .



Thanks,

Steve St. Laurent

Lead Moderator

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Joaker, I know for a fact that the ones that they are gonna be using will not be the same inputs as DTT because they are a DTT exclusive (hows that saying go "sometimes money can't buy, and for everyone else there's..... "), unless barry gets more from us, which he has for a couple trucks that he was having trouble break other billet shaft. Although I don't know which ones he was originally using. Hopefully Barry does get some big powered trucks cause they test things to the max. Once DTT trucks started getting over 1500ft. lbs we built an even stronger shaft, eventhough most will not need it, it's nice to not have to horry about it. Remember we are only looking at the power side of the equation, the heavy haulers also do some serious damage. And when you combine big power and big loads look out.

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Steve you know that I like living on the edge. :-laf

 

[holmanrd]

Simple Terms for Simple People

Ok, I have been reading this thread since the beginning. It’s full of great info. and some horn blowing as well. Sometimes it is a little bit too much info.



For a newbie like me, can some of you cut to the chase and give me your suggestions on the transmission upgrades I might want per my needs. I pull a bit of weight now and then. I don’t know the weight of my stock trailer (18foot steal gooseneck loaded with beef or horses?) but I do pull a gooseneck flat bed with a couple of jeeps and a bunch of camping gear that I would estimate weight to be over 8K maybe 10K loaded (Just an estimate).



In addition to my signature I have “lost” my EGR, bought a #10 plate, AFC spring, and 3000 GSK. I do want the truck to spool up fast and get the load going. I want it to run as cool as possible. I still want to be able to hot dog and jump on it around town. Heck I just want to get the most use out of the power I have right from the start, loaded or not.



I appreciate any response, biased or not, dealers or users. Thanks in advance.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

David I don't know where you tested it but again you could make millions selling tc's and other rotational parts that are heavier that don't loose acceleration. Period.

I didn't say that they(light trucks) where cheating I just said that they where lighter which is one of the reason that they are faster.



Mark,

Has Maddog made more that 886hp at a dyno show, I heard at the ATS show he made 733hp.



As far as the TC discussion goes I won't even bother with you cause I really don't think you understand. I can promise you that a DTT converter will have alot better Torque Multiplication than the TC's you use. Period. All DTT Drag racers use lock-up going down the track, they just use fluid coupling to accelerate out of the hole, even wonder why 7000+ lbs 4x4 with DTT transmission can 60 foot low 1. 5*'s, it's because they are transferring the power, there TC's don't feel like they going in Neutral when Big hp is applied.

Ask Trevor Wood, who tried I believe 5-7 TC's from the company that you love, before realizing that DTT should be tried then he picked-up over 1/2 sec.



Mark you can respond back if you want but I'm done with you.

Maddog made over 1000hp and 1700ftlb according to the magazine he was on the cover of.



You guys have magazines in Canada, right?



If I want a 'DTT' stator I'll call TCS and get one just like you do.

 

[Cooker]

Maddog made over 1000hp and 1700ftlb according to the magazine he was on the cover of.

Mark, I know you know that those magazines have a tendancy to stretch the truth. Don't get COMP going about that issue :-laf



Not to discredit Richards truck, it is certainly one hell of a ride and I'd bet it has more HP than the 802 he laid down at Piers. Maybe it is over 1000HP, but certainly because it was printed in a magazine to have 1000HP does not make it true.

 

[ctd8999]

Auto trans

Holman, Give Dave Goerend a call he'll steer you right. 563-778-2719 Thanks Steve B.

 

[Rams-n-Hogs]

Holmanrd,



I, too, have been following this thread from the beginning, hoping to learn as much as I can about autos. I would suggest calling each of the vendors you might be interested in purchasing your trans from, and talking to each of them individually. That's what I'm going to do, when the time comes.



Jim