Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Auto Trans and Triple Disc Converters

[DavidTD]

Ok, I have been reading this thread since the beginning. It’s full of great info. and some horn blowing as well. Sometimes it is a little bit too much info.



For a newbie like me, can some of you cut to the chase and give me your suggestions on the transmission upgrades I might want per my needs. I pull a bit of weight now and then. I don’t know the weight of my stock trailer (18foot steal gooseneck loaded with beef or horses?) but I do pull a gooseneck flat bed with a couple of jeeps and a bunch of camping gear that I would estimate weight to be over 8K maybe 10K loaded (Just an estimate).



In addition to my signature I have “lost” my EGR, bought a #10 plate, AFC spring, and 3000 GSK. I do want the truck to spool up fast and get the load going. I want it to run as cool as possible. I still want to be able to hot dog and jump on it around town. Heck I just want to get the most use out of the power I have right from the start, loaded or not.



I appreciate any response, biased or not, dealers or users. Thanks in advance.

My comment would be to call the transmission companies and ask them these questions. Then I would PM a few folks on here and ask them about their set-ups. I would pick those people that maybe hang-out in the tow/hauling section since you are concerned with that aspect of it.



But do understand, efficient converters are not only offered by one vendor. As a matter of fact, the others started out very efficient and over the years have found a balance between efficiency and lock-up. If you are not running big power, you may not "need" a triple lock, but I would want a billet cover. More surface area for more clutch material will mean for longer life at minimum. Just my non qualified opinion.



Stefan, the test was done on my dyno. 3 runs were made on a 03 Dodge with stock transmission. After the new unit was installed with a triple disk converter, it was dyno'd again 3 more runs. All within 3 hours of the original runs. All 6 runs were within 1hp. Understand, this was a test where I was proving that the billet cover robbed HP. The only reason I could come up with why it didn't was that the diesel tq reduced the amount of hp actually lost. But I can tell you on an acceleration test, on a dyno that everyone says doesn't load these trucks (which should have made this HP loss due to more rotating mass more evident) we saw no power loss. None.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Oo. :-laf :-{}

 

[JBlock]

I guess what I have learned from this thread is what everybody has said at one time or another "is to call the guy your interested in and make your choices, I am between DDT which about 5 hours away in Canada, Dunrite which is local at 30 mintues away in Portland Oregon. .



I am never planning on much over 300 Hp, which is more that I can get with EZ and RV275 where I am at and going to 400hp would be a stretch, but with better built automatic, maybe there is a stretch in there somewhere. DO I heard EDM 1. 6 or 2. 0



Thanks for the info.

 

[I-6DZL]

I personally think Jim Fulmer stated it best of everyone on here. Without words!!



I HOPE YOU VENDORS CAN SEE YOUR B. S. BICKERING WILL DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD TO THIS VERY INFORMATIVE THREAD!!!!! Please do not get this thread locked!



On the other hand if you have something worth while (other than my TC is bigger than your TC)[you know the same ol' B. S. ] then please share. As you can tell you have a huge audience here that is feeding off of your wealth of knowlege.



Thanks for you understanding

Curtis

 

[justinp20012500]

I guess what I learned is "to call the guy your interested in and make your choices, I am between DDT which about 5 hours away in canada, Dunrite which is local at 30 mintues away in Portland Oregon. .



I am never planning on much over 300 Hp, which is more tha I got with EZ and RV275 where I am at and going to 400hp would be a stretch, but with better automatic, maybe I go for the stretch. EDM 2. 0



Thanks for the info.

With 300HP and a "low stall" stator you would be lucky if you truck will get out of its own way during a flat footed "no boost" take off from a light, or pulling a load.



With your power level a single disk with billet cover will do you fine. Keep to a low cost effective stator you can have a billet covered TC for under $450.







Justin

 

[Stefan Kondolay]

Mark, you can call up whomever you want, I guarantee you wont be buying a DTT anything because they dont make DTT converter components or DTT converters so by all means go right ahead. And yes Mark we have fiction Magazines in Canada too, even up here we know if its in a magazine it must be true right Fulmer. :-laf

 

[justinp20012500]

TCS hasn't built our TC's for a while now. Joaker I think that your gonna stay curious.



Justin the reason that I don't answer your question is because I haven't tested them that way and it is obvious you are fishing. I believe that I have said before that loose converters are a waste of time.



I'm sorry that you felt I took a jab at you, it wasn't meant that way. I do however feel that you are offering a lot of free advice, and are pointing people in certain directions, they should at least be able to get ahold of you when/ if they find out they were advised wrong. Remember some people may feel that you are a transmission guy, and follow your advice. I remember talking with you and I know that you were not a trans guy. If we steer someone wrong they know where to find us.

The only fishing that I do is at the lake!! :-laf



If anyone here thinks I am steering them directions they/you need to PM me for my cell # and I can really steer them.



On the free advice part... Isn't TDR a great big resource of advise that only cost 35 bucks a year?? Or free if you know how to use google to your advantage.



Are you going to be at MM??? I would like to get together and share some knowledge with each other and maybe a beer eh? (I want to know how you lost 6 VP's in one year )



As for Maddog, to the best of my knowledge he is the highest recorded HP. Heck I watched him put down a little over 700HP (no correction factor) a unforgiving M1750 here in Utah over a year ago.



(Anyone care to PM him to ask him why he is running a properly valved motor with an over disked TC?)







Justin

 

[steve marshall]

Mark, you can call up whomever you want, I guarantee you wont be buying a DTT anything because they dont make DTT converter components or DTT converters so by all means go right ahead. And yes Mark we have fiction Magazines in Canada too, even up here we know if its in a magazine it must be true right Fulmer. :-laf

stefan!!!!!!!!! are you for real?

what happened to the last 1700 unit's over the past 4 years??

steve

 

[JBlock]

With 300HP and a "low stall" stator you would be lucky if you truck will get out of its own way during a flat footed "no boost" take off from a light, or pulling a load.



With your power level a single disk with billet cover will do you fine. Keep to a low cost effective stator you can have a billet covered TC for under $450.







Justin

That an interesting thought, so you be saying look real hard at the Dunrite setup or just a VB?.

 

[justinp20012500]

That an interesting thought, so you be saying look real hard at the Dunrite setup or just a VB?.

I really can't say. Political BS if you know what I mean.



You can pm me for my # and I can direct you in where to go.



I just think you don't need to drop 3 grand for something you don't need. Unless you are not going to be satisfied with just 300 hp.



Any way. Give Tony Garson (aka Dunrite) a call. He is a start shooter, then again, so is Dave Goerend. Both nice guys.







Jusitn

 

[Allnew2Me]

Wow what a long and very informative thread this has turned out to be! I read it with interest because I am also at that stage where I want to upgrade my truck and the transmission is where I want to start. I liked the discussions based upon the physics of the transmissions regardless of brand loyalty. I am trying to understand the facts that are common to all parts and then decide what would best serve my particular needs. What I have gleaned so far is this and please correct me if I am wrong.

The stock TQ is as it is to protect the transmission, and it does so at the expense of efficiency and power transfer. It runs hotter than aftermarkets.

The aftermarket TQs are more efficient by a closer tolerance between the impeller and the turbine, creating less heat and better transfer of power.

Proper stall speed is based upon HP and torque.

Single disc TQs require a valvebody mod to increase line pressure for more holding power.

Triple discs don't need a VB because they have more surface contact area, so their higher price may actually be less expensive than a single.

Aftermarket TQs lockup much more pronounced and allow lockup in other ranges than stock.

Shifting quality is still a function of the valvebody rather than TQ.

Each manufacturer approaches the solution in a slightly different manner and there are advantages and negatives to each of these depending upon your final end use.

So the real trick here is to know what HP and torque level one will eventually acheive ( I know it is hard to stop!) and honestly decide what the real needs are, and buy the proper upgrades based upon the way the truck will be used. Each truck will be different and will be perfect for that owner even though another would not buy the same thing.

Now some questions

When ordering a TQ do I have a choice of stall speeds?

Do all upgraded Transmissions or parts therof require giving up smooth shifting and soft lockups?

Does the addition of a high performance TQ change any of the electronic-controlled shifting functions, or another way?

How does a TQ know when to lockup?

And the last question, why didn't I just buy a manual :-laf , because i would have missed all this fun!

 

[Rams-n-Hogs]

Wow what a long and very informative thread this has turned out to be! I read it with interest because I am also at that stage where I want to upgrade my truck and the transmission is where I want to start. I liked the discussions based upon the physics of the transmissions regardless of brand loyalty. I am trying to understand the facts that are common to all parts and then decide what would best serve my particular needs. What I have gleaned so far is this and please correct me if I am wrong. The stock TQ is as it is to protect the transmission, and it does so at the expense of efficiency and power transfer. It runs hotter than aftermarkets. The aftermarket TQs are more efficient by a closer tolerance between the impeller and the turbine, creating less heat and better transfer of power. Single disc TQs require a valvebody mod to increase line pressure for more holding power. Triple discs don't need a VB because they have more surface contact area, so their higher price may actually be less expensive than a single.

Aftermarket TQs lockup much more pronounced and allow lockup in other ranges than stock.

Shifting quality is still a function of the valvebody rather than TQ.

Each manufacturer approaches the solution in a slightly different manner and there are advantages and negatives to each of these depending upon your final end use.

So the real trick here is to know what HP and torque level one will eventually acheive ( I know it is hard to stop!) and honestly decide what the real needs are, and buy the proper upgrades based upon the way the truck will be used. Each truck will be different and will be perfect for that owner even though another would not buy the same thing.

Now some questions.

When ordering a TQ do I have a choice of stall speeds?

Do all upgraded Transmissions or parts therof require giving up smooth shifting and soft lockups?

Does the addition of a high performance TQ change any of the electronic-controlled shifting functions, or another way?

How does a TQ know when to lockup?

And the last question, why didn't I just buy a manual , because i would have missed all this fun!

Very well put, Allnew2Me. That's about what I've gotten out of this thread, so far. I'm not too sure about the triple disk not needing a valve body mod, though. I think it might, more so to control lockup, than to increase line pressure. At least that's how I took it. I can't answer any of your questions, as I will not claim to have any knowledge, (safer that way), except the last one. If you would have gotten a manual, there would have been a thread titled, "Who makes the best clutch?" :-laf Now if we can get some honest answers to your questions... .



Jim

 

[JoshPeters]

Now some questions

When ordering a TQ do I have a choice of stall speeds?

Do all upgraded Transmissions or parts therof require giving up smooth shifting and soft lockups?

Does the addition of a high performance TQ change any of the electronic-controlled shifting functions, or another way?

How does a TQ know when to lockup?

And the last question, why didn't I just buy a manual :-laf , because i would have missed all this fun!

When you talk to the different companies you have different choices on stall speeds. DTT has I believe 3 choices, ATS, I'm honesly not sure. Goerends, Dave has a couple different choices depending on what you do with the truck.



When you upgrade the transmission, you DO NOT have to give up smooth shifting and smooth lock-ups. Grab a ride in a truck with a Goerends transmission. I honestly think mine shifts smoother than stock.



The addition of a higher performance valve body or converter should not change the electronic controls.



Why didn't you buy a manual... . Because you didn't want the 5th gear nut to come off! :-laf



Josh

 

[JoshPeters]

I guess what I have learned from this thread is what everybody has said at one time or another "is to call the guy your interested in and make your choices, I am between DDT which about 5 hours away in Canada, Dunrite which is local at 30 mintues away in Portland Oregon. .



I am never planning on much over 300 Hp, which is more that I can get with EZ and RV275 where I am at and going to 400hp would be a stretch, but with better built automatic, maybe there is a stretch in there somewhere. DO I heard EDM 1. 6 or 2. 0



Thanks for the info.

I would not recommend the Dunrite. It is just a stock converter with slightly more clutch area. A good friend of mine's dad went through 6 of them with only 250hp. All the companies are good. Give DTT a call, ATS, Goerends, and Suncoast... . all have great product. I know Dave has sent an already done transmission to a reputable trans shop so they could install it.



Josh



edited to add Suncoast... . Sorry guys! That's what I get for posting on a transmission thread within 10min of waking up! :-laf

 

[DavidTD]

And I'll add call Joe Webb at Sun Coast too.

 

[Lsfarm]

It's everything

Wow, what a thread, at least it has made it this far without being shut down.



Our transmissions need more than just a few extra discs in the TC to make the trans hold extra HP and Torque. The whole transmission has to work together. And the whole transmission needs to be upgraded to eliminate leaks and get the available pressure to the clutch packs and TC lockup.



Now there are some transmissions out there that came from the factory in pretty good shape, and some of those are doing fine with an upgraded TC and VB and not too much added HP. But this is a gamble. If you do your own work, and want to install just a TC and VB, then you are waranteeing the work and results yourself. But I won't do this for a customer because I know that the odds are that the trans will fail and the customer will be unhappy having to spend more money on his trans, a lot of which is duplicate labor and parts.



The TC Triple vs Single disc debate is an example of not looking at the the whole picture. The triple disc was created and advertised at first to allow a super strong TC lockup without having to increase internal pressures, Sounds good right? More surface area will provide more holding power right?? Yep it does, but the TC lockup is only one link in the chain between the engine and the driveshaft.



When in Third gear locked, the rear clutch and the third gear clutch are engaged, and many, many times what is thought to be the TC lockup slipping is in reality the rear clutch or third gear clutch slipping. It is very hard to tell untill you pull the trans down and inspect it.



When in OD or Fourth, there is an additional link in the chain: the OD clutch pack, and it can slip too. With every link added to the chain, more pressure is used and lost due to internal leakage, and if the trans is worn or is a poor product right from the factory, it is going to slip!



So lets see, we have several links in a chain and we are seeing slippage during lockup. Which link is slipping? Some advertising and some interpretations of this and other trannsmission threads will say that you need a better TC, and of course a triple disc has to be better than a single right?? Well you can add a very strong link in the chain, but only that link will be stronger, not the whole chain. This was learned early on in the history of the triple disc TC, there were failures in other areas of the trans, and soon the line pressures of the triple disc transmissions were increased and the other internals upgraded to hold the HP and Torque. Was the triple disc needed? Not in my opinion, the whole trans needed upgrading.



There is a post in this thread that says that a slipping TC lockup clutch [single] contaminated the trans and caused the one of the clutch packs to burn and warp. Well this is almost for sure the other-way-around. The TC is a huge surface area, even the single disc TC has more than enough surface area to hold any of the power now being produced by the CTD[with proper pressure]. But who says the clutch pack wasn't what was slipping from the beginning?? Add a new TC and it still slips, is it the TC? Probably not, it is one of the other links in the chain.



If the built-in leaks in the trans are taken care of, and pressures are increased to hold the additional HP and Torque, and the third gear and OD clutch stacks are upgraded, then the single disc TC can and does hold everything we can [at this time] throw at it.



OK you say then why are a lot of the very fast Drag trucks running triple disc converters?? BECAUSE they are drag trucks. This is a unique application.



A drag truck needs to get the rpm up, the turbos spooled and get launched. Then the TC is locked, IN EFFECT, this is like adding an additional gear for the drag trucks. Many of these drag trucks are launching with 2500-3500 rpm at the staging lights. Would you like to have that much slippage in fluid drive in your street or towing truck, certainly not!! A triple disc in the converter is almost mandatory for the huge rpm drop when the lockup button is pushed. Ever see a drag truck's front end get off the ground about at the 2-300' point?? Ask the driver if this is where he is locking the TC.



Every vehicle has its intended purpose, and it's owner/driver preferences. The TC and transmission can be set up for that intended purpose. Just because a triple disc converter works on the drag strip does not mean that it is needed in a towing or street truck. Can it be used there? Yes of course, but the debate is pretty much just a good excuse for bragging and chest-beating. Just like tire/wheel debates, any tire will get you down the road. Different ones are needed for different applications and owner/driver preferences.



Any Torque Converter is only as good as the trans it is running in. Get a good trans rebuild and upgrade the internals increase the pressures and either flavor of TC will do the job. Drive several trucks with upgrades transmissions, and make your decision. For me I prefer a fairly tight fluid drive for my trucks.



OH, I forgot about the 'billet cover' Well I've never seen a bulged cover on a healthy trans. Even on an unhealthy trans with a significantly burnt-till-blue TC cover, I was unable to measure any bulging of the cover. This seems to be yet another advertising ploy to sell a 'special' part just because of percieved improvemnt that really is not needed.



There are many considerations for the choice of TC: HP and Torque, gear ratio, tire size, towing weights, drag strip applications, high altitude driving and towing etc, etc. The trans and TC must be matched to it's application. And often a compromise must be made, this is where the interaction with the trans rebuilder is invaluable.



Whew! my fingers are tired. I hope this helps clear up some misconceptions, and doesn't stir up a lot of emotion.



Greg L

 

[Cooker]

Great, informative post Greg

 

[JoshPeters]

Greg... I thought it may have been an inturnal leak... but prior to the loss of those clutches... I had a trans pressure guage riding around with me for 2 weeks, watching the pressures. That was over a year ago now... . but I believe the pressures were 80psi in Drive and 140psi at 65mph, rolling hard to WOT. If there was an inturnal leak..... I would sure have thought that would have shown in that test. And yes... While doing that test... the slippage was occuring.



Not flaming... . Just stating what happened. I know transmissions fairly well... and I seem to be getting better and better with our 47re/rh's every day. When we pulled that transmission down... . None of the seals or sealing areas had any issues that we could see. Just burnt clutches.



Josh

 

[Lsfarm]

Internal leakage vs slipping

Hi Josh, no flame taken or intended by myself. Even with good indicated pressure, if the frictions were worn, and applied pressure can't push the piston far enough to provide good clamping pressure, then the clutch pack will slip. This is most often seen in the rear clutch with that goofy 'bellevue spring' or pie-plate spring.



I've seen and tested the same thing as you describe, and this is why I just won't gamble my customer's money on a TC and VB only upgrade. It's a temptation, but I advise against it.



Take care, glad it's ok now



Greg L

 

[Rams-n-Hogs]

Thanks, Greg



That's the kind of informative post I've been looking for. That explained a lot.



Jim