I am getting ready to do the the transmission and want to get it right the first time. My 97 has 114K and the motor is basically stock so far to keep the transmission in check. It is in good shape so I don't want to screw it up before I put the fuel to it. I have been talking to some different shops and they all say the triple disc is the way to go, but I have talked to a few guys who have had them and they say a triple disc with only a valve body tore up their other wise stock transmission. They say a triple disc will just tare up the stock transmission during street driving. I find this hard to believe so I bring it to the experts. Also what experince have you guys had with only the converter and V/B. Do I need the whole transmission built to start off with? How much power will just the converter and V/B hold?
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Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Auto Trans and Triple Disc Converters
- Thread starter blkdragon
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Hey, im in the same boat. i hope you get some good replies. i need the same question answered. mine seems to hold now but i had converter built at local trans shop and instead of new fines like DTT or ATs they bent the stock fins to lower stall, billet cover but still single disc. night and day difference from stock but i wonder if i would see the difference again if i switch to DTT or ATS?
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Bent the stock TC fins huh... hmm never heard of that. Ohya, welcome to the TDR, DBraunig.
I too am in the market for a partial/whole rebuild. I can put in a TC and VB myself for about 1-1. 5k , or have the whole thing rebuilt by a local shop here, that has a good reputation, for 2500.
My problem is converter efficiency vs MPG. I do a lot of city driving, and thus, use my converter's fluid coupling a lot. That, and I think I have a flaky govener solenoid/sensor... possible. .
All in all, I think I`m gonna go for the full rebuild with an upgraded TC and VB. That way I know everything in there is in new condition, and one part wont fail and cause failures elsewhere.
good luck
-j
I too am in the market for a partial/whole rebuild. I can put in a TC and VB myself for about 1-1. 5k , or have the whole thing rebuilt by a local shop here, that has a good reputation, for 2500.
My problem is converter efficiency vs MPG. I do a lot of city driving, and thus, use my converter's fluid coupling a lot. That, and I think I have a flaky govener solenoid/sensor... possible. .
All in all, I think I`m gonna go for the full rebuild with an upgraded TC and VB. That way I know everything in there is in new condition, and one part wont fail and cause failures elsewhere.
good luck
-j
I'm no expert, and am not trying to "sell" this product but here is my experience with my Triple Lock TC. I have had my set up for about 2 years now, and have been satisfied with my ATS Triple Lock and valve body. When I had it installed, I also had them bench the transmission and go through it. Everything looked pretty good except the old TC cover showed signs of heat discoloration and possible warpage at about 55,000 miles. I also had them install a few extras like heavy duty band struts. I am glad that I now have a transmission that can accept high horse power and torque, and runs very cool when pulling my 9,000 lb FW.
I had some work done on the truck by a BD installer who seemed to be impressed with, as he put it, "the positive lock up of the TC". The only thing I could say I don't like about it, is that if you are under a load such as pulling the trailer at high power setting when the TC locks up it will just about give you whiplash. I also have the Commander installed which allows me to control when the TC locks and unlocks which gives me the ability to let off the pedal just before lock up. It makes the lock up event not so harsh. The other thing I like about it, is that it stays locked up when going in and out of overdrive which really helps when accelerating onto the freeway or "downshifting" to climb a hill or when descending with the Ebrake engaged. It actually can stay locked up in all gears, even 1st.
Hope this helps... sorry it's long
I had some work done on the truck by a BD installer who seemed to be impressed with, as he put it, "the positive lock up of the TC". The only thing I could say I don't like about it, is that if you are under a load such as pulling the trailer at high power setting when the TC locks up it will just about give you whiplash. I also have the Commander installed which allows me to control when the TC locks and unlocks which gives me the ability to let off the pedal just before lock up. It makes the lock up event not so harsh. The other thing I like about it, is that it stays locked up when going in and out of overdrive which really helps when accelerating onto the freeway or "downshifting" to climb a hill or when descending with the Ebrake engaged. It actually can stay locked up in all gears, even 1st.
Hope this helps... sorry it's long
Bill K has talked about this a long time ago.
The clutch area in the torque converter is already larger than the front and rear clutches. Simply adding area to a clutch that is already large enough to not be a problem doesn't cure anything.
Production tolerances need to be addressed to save the trans.
This is what I believe he said.
These trans have three bad area's .
1 ) torque converter is way too loose.
2 ) line pressure is too low
3 ) production ( mass production ) is sloppy.
So, look at it this way.
Using a bigger chain to pull the truck out of some mud will do no good if the clevis pin is a 1/4 inch bolt!!!!
Anyway, buy what you want.
The clutch area in the torque converter is already larger than the front and rear clutches. Simply adding area to a clutch that is already large enough to not be a problem doesn't cure anything.
Production tolerances need to be addressed to save the trans.
This is what I believe he said.
These trans have three bad area's .
1 ) torque converter is way too loose.
2 ) line pressure is too low
3 ) production ( mass production ) is sloppy.
So, look at it this way.
Using a bigger chain to pull the truck out of some mud will do no good if the clevis pin is a 1/4 inch bolt!!!!
Anyway, buy what you want.
If you were lucky enough to get 114,000 miles out of your auto you should feel great. Not sure if you tow heavy or not, but I would assume you don't. The problem with the stock transmission is it is just under sized for the amount of work everyone expects out of a heavy duty diesel powered truck. The TC is a problem, it has way to high of a stall, and not near enough friction area (clutch) for the job. Replacing it only accounts for a small percentage of the problem. The fact is, anything less then a full and complete up-grade is really just a waste of money and time. Think of it like a long chain, and in that long piece of chain you have 4 week links. These links can represent the four week areas of the Dodge automatic:Torque Converter, Valve Body, Transmission, and controller. If you replace one link or even two, the chain is still only as good as the weakest link. To get the chain strong enough to be able to increase it's ability to pull more weight, you would have to replace all four week links. Truly it is that simple. The only reason you see so many people try and replace only one or two of the week or problem areas, is there MONEY. This is one area where you do get what you pay for, and yes it does not come cheap. If you do not have the funds to do a full up-grade, then keep saving till you do. It may sound cold, but it is the truth, anything less then a 100% effort is a waste of time and money.
There is a very good reason that Dodge left the week and very loose torque converter in the stock week transmission, fact is the stock transmission can not take the extra load the tighter TC it give. The stock trany can not hold the power now when loaded, so it sure isn't going to hold when you tighten up the TC and exert even more pressure on a already week unit. The week TC is there to intensionally serve as a buffer, it only allows the ending to surge up to 2000 rpm and stay there on take-offs, protecting the rest of the transmission, by keeping the oil pressure up and the lock-out out till the rig is moving at a pretty good clip. Same olds true for the rest of the components down the line, the shifts are so sloppy for a good reason, they make it much easier on the clutch packs and TC. Shape and firm shifts would only lead to system failure if the rest of the drive-line was not also brung up to speed. And there is no way a aftermarket transmission controller would work on a stock trany, again the stock factory controller is set up to allow the week trany to live, at least till warranty is out. The worst thing anyone can do to a stock transmission is to install the (STUPID) Mystery Switch, I would not even recommend it for a aftermarket transmission. In my opinion, that is a very serious safety consideration. Yes I know many have used them, but I bet there isn't one that hasn't had the ****t scared out of them at least once, when they forgot to dis-engage it. Besides being a Major safety issue, the stock auto can not take the forces exerted on it when the transmission is in full lock-up, it's just a time bomb waiting to explode. I say if you can not afford a Controller that has automatic safe-grads built into it, to protect you and the other around you, then you have no right running one. Yes I am sure many will get peeved about this, but safety should be the first and most important issue, not convenience or money, sorry.
There is no sense talking about increasing power on an automatic equipped truck, with a stock trany. It make absolutely zero sense. I could add 75 or even 100 HP to a stock truck and could not tell a difference. The week and loose TC will not let the additional HP show through. Now on the other hand, you could blind fold some-one and have them ride in a truck with stock power levels and a aftermarket complete transmission package, and they would swear they were riding in a heavily modified diesel truck, why? Because the complete transmission package allow much more of your stock trucks power to be used. The truck accelerates much faster with the lower stall Tc, the shifts are quicker and much firmer, and when the TC locks up, you have no problem knowing it did, at full throttle it will set you back in your seat, like a 60's muscle cars would. It all comes down to efficiency, why much power actually makes it to the rear wheels. The stock unit is only so efficient, at best 50 %. The aftermarket versions of the same transmission do a much better job, how much better depends on how much you are willing to give-up. The more performance you extract from your automatic trany, the less civil it becomes. Some where there is a balance to be achieved, for me it's good street manors with firm but smooth shifts. I need a transmission for towing, I tow around a 16,000Lb + GN and I want my transmission to get me rolling from a standing start with authority, make quick smooth but firm shifts, and get into lock-up as quickly as possible while keeping the engine up in it's sweet spot. And my ATS does just that. I can pull most other rigs towing half what I do. One of the hardest things for any transmission is towing heavy and pulling hills. Why do you think the stock TC/Trany simply goes into unlock and the RPMs stay at 2100 when you encounter a large hill. Especially one where you had to slow down then get back in it? It is trying to protect itself, by UN-locking it allows the RPMs to shoot up and supply more oil pressure and increases the cooling. By UN-locking it also takes away much of the strain the hill is putting on the transmission itself. This is all good that the trany does that, it has to it is undersized for the job, and has been since Dodge started putting diesels in the trucks. What isn't cool is the fact that where you are big bad dodge truck, foot to the floor, and barely doing 45 up a hill that Yugo's and Ford super Duty's are taking with stride. So what happens... . you crest the top and speed down the other side trying to muster as much speed as possible before the next incline, the process repeats. It doesn't have to be like that, you can walk up those very same hills with the right combination of transmission parts and pieces, and just maybe a tad more USABLE power. The key is to look at the whole picture, not just one or two piece of it. if you are considering transmission work, consider the whole transmission package. If you have to save a little longer, then save a little longer, in the end you will be very pleased with the results.
On a side note, weather you are running a stock or modified transmission, the number one enemy is heat. Take the time to consider installing a Transmission cooler, it is dollar for dollar the best investment you can make.
There is a very good reason that Dodge left the week and very loose torque converter in the stock week transmission, fact is the stock transmission can not take the extra load the tighter TC it give. The stock trany can not hold the power now when loaded, so it sure isn't going to hold when you tighten up the TC and exert even more pressure on a already week unit. The week TC is there to intensionally serve as a buffer, it only allows the ending to surge up to 2000 rpm and stay there on take-offs, protecting the rest of the transmission, by keeping the oil pressure up and the lock-out out till the rig is moving at a pretty good clip. Same olds true for the rest of the components down the line, the shifts are so sloppy for a good reason, they make it much easier on the clutch packs and TC. Shape and firm shifts would only lead to system failure if the rest of the drive-line was not also brung up to speed. And there is no way a aftermarket transmission controller would work on a stock trany, again the stock factory controller is set up to allow the week trany to live, at least till warranty is out. The worst thing anyone can do to a stock transmission is to install the (STUPID) Mystery Switch, I would not even recommend it for a aftermarket transmission. In my opinion, that is a very serious safety consideration. Yes I know many have used them, but I bet there isn't one that hasn't had the ****t scared out of them at least once, when they forgot to dis-engage it. Besides being a Major safety issue, the stock auto can not take the forces exerted on it when the transmission is in full lock-up, it's just a time bomb waiting to explode. I say if you can not afford a Controller that has automatic safe-grads built into it, to protect you and the other around you, then you have no right running one. Yes I am sure many will get peeved about this, but safety should be the first and most important issue, not convenience or money, sorry.
There is no sense talking about increasing power on an automatic equipped truck, with a stock trany. It make absolutely zero sense. I could add 75 or even 100 HP to a stock truck and could not tell a difference. The week and loose TC will not let the additional HP show through. Now on the other hand, you could blind fold some-one and have them ride in a truck with stock power levels and a aftermarket complete transmission package, and they would swear they were riding in a heavily modified diesel truck, why? Because the complete transmission package allow much more of your stock trucks power to be used. The truck accelerates much faster with the lower stall Tc, the shifts are quicker and much firmer, and when the TC locks up, you have no problem knowing it did, at full throttle it will set you back in your seat, like a 60's muscle cars would. It all comes down to efficiency, why much power actually makes it to the rear wheels. The stock unit is only so efficient, at best 50 %. The aftermarket versions of the same transmission do a much better job, how much better depends on how much you are willing to give-up. The more performance you extract from your automatic trany, the less civil it becomes. Some where there is a balance to be achieved, for me it's good street manors with firm but smooth shifts. I need a transmission for towing, I tow around a 16,000Lb + GN and I want my transmission to get me rolling from a standing start with authority, make quick smooth but firm shifts, and get into lock-up as quickly as possible while keeping the engine up in it's sweet spot. And my ATS does just that. I can pull most other rigs towing half what I do. One of the hardest things for any transmission is towing heavy and pulling hills. Why do you think the stock TC/Trany simply goes into unlock and the RPMs stay at 2100 when you encounter a large hill. Especially one where you had to slow down then get back in it? It is trying to protect itself, by UN-locking it allows the RPMs to shoot up and supply more oil pressure and increases the cooling. By UN-locking it also takes away much of the strain the hill is putting on the transmission itself. This is all good that the trany does that, it has to it is undersized for the job, and has been since Dodge started putting diesels in the trucks. What isn't cool is the fact that where you are big bad dodge truck, foot to the floor, and barely doing 45 up a hill that Yugo's and Ford super Duty's are taking with stride. So what happens... . you crest the top and speed down the other side trying to muster as much speed as possible before the next incline, the process repeats. It doesn't have to be like that, you can walk up those very same hills with the right combination of transmission parts and pieces, and just maybe a tad more USABLE power. The key is to look at the whole picture, not just one or two piece of it. if you are considering transmission work, consider the whole transmission package. If you have to save a little longer, then save a little longer, in the end you will be very pleased with the results.
On a side note, weather you are running a stock or modified transmission, the number one enemy is heat. Take the time to consider installing a Transmission cooler, it is dollar for dollar the best investment you can make.
do it once and do it right, spend the extra money now and save yourself having to to a total rebuild after you already upgraded just the tc and vb. doing it half arsed is just like adding an expensive bandaid, it will last for a little while but it will fail and you will most likely be buying parts a second time.
holy crap y-knot... you made my eyes hurt. Lotta good info though. I think I`m definetly going for a full rebuild once the damn tax return comes in...
As for a cooler, there are two coolers on a stock system, no? Front behind the rad, and a coolant exchanger below the turbo. . These coolers dont provide enough exchange? I dont do heavy towing, I tow my boat here and there, but nothing of any size.
-jerry
As for a cooler, there are two coolers on a stock system, no? Front behind the rad, and a coolant exchanger below the turbo. . These coolers dont provide enough exchange? I dont do heavy towing, I tow my boat here and there, but nothing of any size.
-jerry
I will add my agreement to the advice given by others that it saves money in the long run to go ahead and get a transmission package from a reputable vendor. Some of the articles in the TDR, and other places, glowingly tout a new product such as a whiz bang torque converter or valve body that will make the truck better but sometimes they are not all they are cracked up to be. I went that route a couple of times and later regretted the decision.
Do some research before buying anything. I only tow a 7000# trailer which, by the way, maxes out the GVWR of my truck but, even that load taxes the stock transmission.
I would love to have been able to use a "Commander" or one of the other controllers but having a 47rh eliminates that choice. They may work to some degree with this transmission but the cost exceeds its benefits. I have made my own "controller" which gives me some control over OD and TC lockup.
I use the "stupid" mystery switch and the driver's seat is still red but then, I use it primarily to keep the TC locked while using the exhaust brake.
Do some research before buying anything. I only tow a 7000# trailer which, by the way, maxes out the GVWR of my truck but, even that load taxes the stock transmission.
I would love to have been able to use a "Commander" or one of the other controllers but having a 47rh eliminates that choice. They may work to some degree with this transmission but the cost exceeds its benefits. I have made my own "controller" which gives me some control over OD and TC lockup.
I use the "stupid" mystery switch and the driver's seat is still red but then, I use it primarily to keep the TC locked while using the exhaust brake.
WOW, that's more than enough for me. think i'll just get a loan 
and do it right. i don't know about the "bending the fins" thing, that is what they told me, but the more i read at suncoast, ats, dtt, etc... you gain some to lose some with this cheap way out. its holding but i think i am still missing out on power that is already there. thanks for the replies.
and do it right. i don't know about the "bending the fins" thing, that is what they told me, but the more i read at suncoast, ats, dtt, etc... you gain some to lose some with this cheap way out. its holding but i think i am still missing out on power that is already there. thanks for the replies.y-knot said:
I was under the impression that the transmission is running coolest when locked up. Unlocking decreases efficiency and causes heat build up. I thought the real reason behind unlocking when pulling heavy loads was to prevent clutch slipage. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
From the ATS web site:
Even if a torque converter had 95% efficiency, it still wastes a lot of power. Lets say you have a "turned up" engine producing 300 horsepower. Using a mythical 95% efficient torque converter, when not in lockup you would always be losing 5% (. 05 x 300 = 15 horsepower) in the form of heat. Basically, with anything less than 100% efficiency you are paying money to buy diesel fuel to heat up your ATF! That is the reason some people prefer a manual transmission; when the clutch is released on a manual transmission, it is 100% efficient.
It is easy to spend a lot of money for horsepower upgrades, only to lose many of those horses in an inefficient torque converter. Engineers figured out early on that if the torque converter could be "locked up," 100% of the power could be transferred to the transmission and the transmission would run cooler and last longer. In newer diesels, a lockup clutch is used at highway speeds to improve efficiency to 100% during lockup. It is important to note that the factory lockup clutch is only designed for lockup at highway speeds under relatively light loads. The factory lockup clutch slips under heavier loads which generates heat and reduces efficiency.
The reason for building a TC with fluid coupling to match the engine output/gear ratio/tire size, is to allow maximum efficient acceleration. For most who have tried locking up there TC's in a lower gear while accelerating (using a DTT TC) you will notice the engine gets lugged down acceleration rate will suffer. If you had a looser TC obviously this wouldn't be the case as you would be loosing so much power that anything would feel better. This is the main reason that DTT spends so much time building the proper set-up not one size fits all.
For those who are saying "what", just ride in a DTT truck with a 93% TC which is obviously not 100%, turn all the power off the truck and watch how much slower it accelerates, now imagine what it would feel like at 100% (even worse). The other problem that you run into with going from a loose fluid coupling into lock-up is that lock-up will come in more aggressive, which contrary to popular belief, this isn't a good thing, this increases the chances of breaking hard parts (input shaft for example).
I believe that Trevor Wood made a trans swap going for a manufacturer that had him lock-up in first, to a DTT that had him lock-up in 3rd and gained over 5 tenths of a second with the DTT, although maybe Snowman could chime cause he did the trans work.
Alot of the TC manufacturers are using stators that are made in mexico out of a forklift from Borg Warner, although cheaper, I have never seen a 6-700hp twin turbo forklift. The only reason that someone would want there customers to lock-up there TC in 1st or 2nd gear is because of an in-efficient TC. On the highway you would obviously want lock-up but the factory transmission and all aftermarket transmissions as far as I know come with lock-up in third and fourth.
For those who are saying "what", just ride in a DTT truck with a 93% TC which is obviously not 100%, turn all the power off the truck and watch how much slower it accelerates, now imagine what it would feel like at 100% (even worse). The other problem that you run into with going from a loose fluid coupling into lock-up is that lock-up will come in more aggressive, which contrary to popular belief, this isn't a good thing, this increases the chances of breaking hard parts (input shaft for example).
I believe that Trevor Wood made a trans swap going for a manufacturer that had him lock-up in first, to a DTT that had him lock-up in 3rd and gained over 5 tenths of a second with the DTT, although maybe Snowman could chime cause he did the trans work.
Alot of the TC manufacturers are using stators that are made in mexico out of a forklift from Borg Warner, although cheaper, I have never seen a 6-700hp twin turbo forklift.
The only reason that someone would want there customers to lock-up there TC in 1st or 2nd gear is because of an in-efficient TC. On the highway you would obviously want lock-up but the factory transmission and all aftermarket transmissions as far as I know come with lock-up in third and fourth.I'm only adding my comments to keep the thread open minded, and I know transmission posts can get bogged down by opinions... but...
There are other companies that make very good transmission parts besides DTT and ATS. My opinion is to decide what you want from your truck and then make your transmission decisions. If 600 hp is nowhere in your future, you don't have to get a triple disk to hold the power. I rebuilt my own with a single disk and have never once worried about dropping the hammer because I know it can take it. Not bad for 1/3-1/2 the $ for the TC.
Total cost of my rebuild was about 1/4 to 1/3 of some others for parts, and now I can unload a reasonable amount of fuel. The transmission is not on my worry list. The TC has a 50k mile warranty. Two reasons I made my decision.
Good Luck and have fun,
JJ
There are other companies that make very good transmission parts besides DTT and ATS. My opinion is to decide what you want from your truck and then make your transmission decisions. If 600 hp is nowhere in your future, you don't have to get a triple disk to hold the power. I rebuilt my own with a single disk and have never once worried about dropping the hammer because I know it can take it. Not bad for 1/3-1/2 the $ for the TC.
Total cost of my rebuild was about 1/4 to 1/3 of some others for parts, and now I can unload a reasonable amount of fuel. The transmission is not on my worry list. The TC has a 50k mile warranty. Two reasons I made my decision.
Good Luck and have fun,
JJ
I too am torn here. I bought a complete, Full DDT trans 18 months ago, with converter, and it has slipped. It has lots of miles on it. I run about 320 HP on my 96 12 valve, but regularly am grossing 25,000# plus, with real "odd" tall loads that catch LOTS of wind.
Bill has been very helpful, and has offered to look at the trans, no charge. Problem is that freight and labor to pull and return the unit to him will be well in excess of $1000. 00, and (at first) it looked like simple bad converter. I have a local shop working on it, and he seemed "pretty knowledgeable". From a cost standpoint, the shop will charge $350 to $500 to change the converter and inspect the trans.
When he pulled the trans, the converter was toast, (and the direct clutch pack, more on that later). Bill sent me a New converter under warranty, but was concerned about he reason for the failure. (I was not told of the bad direct clutches until much later)
BUT, there was one other problem. During the repair process, my trans guy could not get the DTT converter to lock up when installed! He pulled the trans again, and checked the DTT converter per factory shp manual methods (air pressure) and could not get it to stop leaking! But that is ok, because he has his own supplier that builds a HD BILLET converter, that he will guarantee.
I was faced with my local trans guy telling me that he would not recommend installing a converter that would not seal. He even showed me how he tested it, (per the FSM) and then tested a stock unit, which did not leak! Even shows me where the computer is telling the DTT converter to lock up, but it is not locking up! HMMMMMMMMM.....
Well, I figure I will just send back the DTT converter, and go with this guys converter. I mean DTT has a great warranty, but he is so far away, it really is impractical for me to use, and the warrenty is up in a few weeks anyway. This guy is local, I am paying him for all his labor anyway, and he will stand behind his work, and converter, with a new one year warrenty, so it is a sale. I get my truck back, with his billet converter, and all is well... .
For one, when I hit 48 MPH, the new converter is locked. Period. Locked. I have more than one CTD, and this new converter locks in just like my stock trucks. I like that! It locks every time, at the right speed.
The old DTT converter sometimes locked up, but, sometimes it would go for miles before locking up (like when the cruise control is on). This always DROVE ME NUTS! I have replaced the TPS, re routed the wires, installed noise filters, but still, the DTT converter never consistently locked up.
BUT... Problem with the new converter is the stall speed. I mash the throttle down, and the rpms shoot to 2600+ and stay there, (lots of noise, but not a lot of speed) right until the converter locks at 48 MPH, and WHAM, it is pulled down to 1500 rpm in a split second.
I am no expert, but I can see 1000 rpm drop in a split second under full throttle is going to be bad. Just the flywheel effect alone is bad. I call my local guy, and he says his converter is a little lower stall than stock, but it still stalled at 2300 rpm with my engine power.
Anyway back to the point, This new converter locks up every time, just too hard. So I figure, to make this thing last, I will either lift foot at lock up, or install a lockup switch, and keep it unlocked until I lift the throttle. All is fine for a couple of weeks. I am running my other trucks on the long hauls (this one has 308,000 miles now)
After two weeks out of the shop, I finally hook up to 12,000# load, and it locks down at 50mph, and the tach drops from 2600 to 1900 in a instant. Wait a minute! My RPMS at 50 mph is supposed to be 1500, not 1900!!!! I let up off the throttle, boost drops to 20 psi, and RPMs drops to 1500. I mash it back down to 30+ psi of boost, and rpms go back up to 1900. THE SOB is slipping under a load!
NOW, I call my local guy, and he tells me that he did find the direct clutch burnt in addition to the converter. He went thought the trans, Replaced the seals, fibers and steels, and put it back together, finding no other problems.
In the meantime, I call Bill at DTT. He offers a real bit of knowledge: First, the converter he built was designed for a delayed lockup!!! The normal air test will not work on his converter. Somehow, it has a oriface to delay the lockup until the throttle is lifted some. I just wish I had known this before I spent all that time and money trying to fix it! Second, he is convinced that the burnt direct clutch contaminated the fluid, and caused the converter to not seal, and slip.
Makes sense.
Anyway, the truck is back in the shop, he does not have time to look at it. Maybe tomorrow. I am stuck. The DTT converter I am told will work, but will have the delayed, inconsistent lockup, and this whole leaking thing has me worried. The local guys converter locks up right, but is too loose. It can tell you from driving with both converters, the important thing is a LOW STALL. Running 2600 to 2800 rpm at 3 or 4 MPH is crazy. (I run a 4" exhaust pipe, no muffler, which exits IN FRONT of the back tire! Scary!) But my local guy wants to sell his billet converter. I really like his dependable lock up, and am prepared to buy the lock up switch.
I think Bill has the right idea. In order to save the input shaft and other parts of the trans, the lock up must be delayed until it is not under full throttle. Besides, with a low stall, the truck pulls pretty good even when unlocked. BTW, Bill does offer other converters that lock right away, but recommends they be for drag only, and I can see why!
My trans guy did "look" at the truck, and told me the stall speed in reverse is in fact 500 rpm lower than in forward (drive) so it is not the converter this time, but the clutches. He just does not have time to fix it, so still know one knows why it slips! When he gets that problem solved, (and I am sure he will) I am going to have to make a converter decision. I am leaning towards the DTT, knowing what I know now.
Paul Smith
www.NeedaTrailer.com
Bill has been very helpful, and has offered to look at the trans, no charge. Problem is that freight and labor to pull and return the unit to him will be well in excess of $1000. 00, and (at first) it looked like simple bad converter. I have a local shop working on it, and he seemed "pretty knowledgeable". From a cost standpoint, the shop will charge $350 to $500 to change the converter and inspect the trans.
When he pulled the trans, the converter was toast, (and the direct clutch pack, more on that later). Bill sent me a New converter under warranty, but was concerned about he reason for the failure. (I was not told of the bad direct clutches until much later)
BUT, there was one other problem. During the repair process, my trans guy could not get the DTT converter to lock up when installed! He pulled the trans again, and checked the DTT converter per factory shp manual methods (air pressure) and could not get it to stop leaking! But that is ok, because he has his own supplier that builds a HD BILLET converter, that he will guarantee.
I was faced with my local trans guy telling me that he would not recommend installing a converter that would not seal. He even showed me how he tested it, (per the FSM) and then tested a stock unit, which did not leak! Even shows me where the computer is telling the DTT converter to lock up, but it is not locking up! HMMMMMMMMM.....
Well, I figure I will just send back the DTT converter, and go with this guys converter. I mean DTT has a great warranty, but he is so far away, it really is impractical for me to use, and the warrenty is up in a few weeks anyway. This guy is local, I am paying him for all his labor anyway, and he will stand behind his work, and converter, with a new one year warrenty, so it is a sale. I get my truck back, with his billet converter, and all is well... .
For one, when I hit 48 MPH, the new converter is locked. Period. Locked. I have more than one CTD, and this new converter locks in just like my stock trucks. I like that! It locks every time, at the right speed.
The old DTT converter sometimes locked up, but, sometimes it would go for miles before locking up (like when the cruise control is on). This always DROVE ME NUTS! I have replaced the TPS, re routed the wires, installed noise filters, but still, the DTT converter never consistently locked up.
BUT... Problem with the new converter is the stall speed. I mash the throttle down, and the rpms shoot to 2600+ and stay there, (lots of noise, but not a lot of speed) right until the converter locks at 48 MPH, and WHAM, it is pulled down to 1500 rpm in a split second.
I am no expert, but I can see 1000 rpm drop in a split second under full throttle is going to be bad. Just the flywheel effect alone is bad. I call my local guy, and he says his converter is a little lower stall than stock, but it still stalled at 2300 rpm with my engine power.
Anyway back to the point, This new converter locks up every time, just too hard. So I figure, to make this thing last, I will either lift foot at lock up, or install a lockup switch, and keep it unlocked until I lift the throttle. All is fine for a couple of weeks. I am running my other trucks on the long hauls (this one has 308,000 miles now)
After two weeks out of the shop, I finally hook up to 12,000# load, and it locks down at 50mph, and the tach drops from 2600 to 1900 in a instant. Wait a minute! My RPMS at 50 mph is supposed to be 1500, not 1900!!!! I let up off the throttle, boost drops to 20 psi, and RPMs drops to 1500. I mash it back down to 30+ psi of boost, and rpms go back up to 1900. THE SOB is slipping under a load!
NOW, I call my local guy, and he tells me that he did find the direct clutch burnt in addition to the converter. He went thought the trans, Replaced the seals, fibers and steels, and put it back together, finding no other problems.
In the meantime, I call Bill at DTT. He offers a real bit of knowledge: First, the converter he built was designed for a delayed lockup!!! The normal air test will not work on his converter. Somehow, it has a oriface to delay the lockup until the throttle is lifted some. I just wish I had known this before I spent all that time and money trying to fix it! Second, he is convinced that the burnt direct clutch contaminated the fluid, and caused the converter to not seal, and slip.
Makes sense.
Anyway, the truck is back in the shop, he does not have time to look at it. Maybe tomorrow. I am stuck. The DTT converter I am told will work, but will have the delayed, inconsistent lockup, and this whole leaking thing has me worried. The local guys converter locks up right, but is too loose. It can tell you from driving with both converters, the important thing is a LOW STALL. Running 2600 to 2800 rpm at 3 or 4 MPH is crazy. (I run a 4" exhaust pipe, no muffler, which exits IN FRONT of the back tire! Scary!) But my local guy wants to sell his billet converter. I really like his dependable lock up, and am prepared to buy the lock up switch.
I think Bill has the right idea. In order to save the input shaft and other parts of the trans, the lock up must be delayed until it is not under full throttle. Besides, with a low stall, the truck pulls pretty good even when unlocked. BTW, Bill does offer other converters that lock right away, but recommends they be for drag only, and I can see why!
My trans guy did "look" at the truck, and told me the stall speed in reverse is in fact 500 rpm lower than in forward (drive) so it is not the converter this time, but the clutches. He just does not have time to fix it, so still know one knows why it slips! When he gets that problem solved, (and I am sure he will) I am going to have to make a converter decision. I am leaning towards the DTT, knowing what I know now.
Paul Smith
www.NeedaTrailer.com
Paul for some strange reason i feel very compelled to reply to your transmission problems!! I would HIGHLY suggest pulling your truck out of the "stock transmission rebuilding experts, that have a billet HD TC, with a very high stall" that has your truck and CANNOT find the cause to all of the burnt clutches. There is a reason that i have stated the word 'STOCK' above. That's all they know, that's all they can give you. The factory service manual barely applies to rebuilding a 'HIGH PERFORMANCE' transmission such as a DTT. If the transmission has not been torn down again after the clutches have been toasted, take that trans to a DTT expert have it analyzed by their expert eyes.
Now you may argue to a point that i myself am not a transmission expert, i'm far from one. The reason that your clutches keep burning up is probably because your transmission case has a good sized leak. Yes the case or the VB is leaking. I know for a fact that DTT has a gasket kit that is to be installed when factory tolerances are at or above their melt down state (wich is obviously where yours is) When the clutches of a transmission burn they turn brown/black. When your trans case or VB is leaking fluid pressure you will see a brown/black residue around the leak. For this reason i suggest you take it to a DTT professional to get completely overhauled by someone that knows his/her way around a 'HIGH PERFORMANCE' transmission.
I cannot comment on the TC, Bill or his certified DTT rebuilders will suggest the best TC for your needs/wants.
If you put a DTT TC in a trans that was overhauled by a 'STOCK' transmission expert. You're asking for problems. The fluid leakage (as stated above) may not give you ample pressure to apply the TC the way DTT intended, let alone hold it.
You wouldn't take your custom built 7 second camaro to Meineke or a discount muffler shop to get worked on... ..... Would you ???
Why are your 'HIGH PERFORMANCE' transmission needs any different ??
On one last note..... Call Bill K at DTT, and ask him where his closest qualified builder is to your location. Tell him your whole story, or point him towards this thread. Tell the 'stock transmission' experts not to pop open that case!!!!!
Hope this helps and very sorry it's sooo long. Couldn't see any other way to explain it other than a phone call!!!!
Curtis (not affiliated with anyone, or any business)
Now you may argue to a point that i myself am not a transmission expert, i'm far from one. The reason that your clutches keep burning up is probably because your transmission case has a good sized leak. Yes the case or the VB is leaking. I know for a fact that DTT has a gasket kit that is to be installed when factory tolerances are at or above their melt down state (wich is obviously where yours is) When the clutches of a transmission burn they turn brown/black. When your trans case or VB is leaking fluid pressure you will see a brown/black residue around the leak. For this reason i suggest you take it to a DTT professional to get completely overhauled by someone that knows his/her way around a 'HIGH PERFORMANCE' transmission.
I cannot comment on the TC, Bill or his certified DTT rebuilders will suggest the best TC for your needs/wants.
If you put a DTT TC in a trans that was overhauled by a 'STOCK' transmission expert. You're asking for problems. The fluid leakage (as stated above) may not give you ample pressure to apply the TC the way DTT intended, let alone hold it.
You wouldn't take your custom built 7 second camaro to Meineke or a discount muffler shop to get worked on... ..... Would you ???
Why are your 'HIGH PERFORMANCE' transmission needs any different ??
On one last note..... Call Bill K at DTT, and ask him where his closest qualified builder is to your location. Tell him your whole story, or point him towards this thread. Tell the 'stock transmission' experts not to pop open that case!!!!!
Hope this helps and very sorry it's sooo long. Couldn't see any other way to explain it other than a phone call!!!!
Curtis (not affiliated with anyone, or any business)
Paul,
One of the things that I noticed first with the DTT was the TC lockup. It will lockup normally if not accelerating but otherwise, it is necessary to lift the foot. I have LEDs in my "little black box" that tell me when the PCM is calling for both OD and TC lockup. I also have the mystery switch but neither of them will cause the TC to actually lock until acceleration is backed off. I am sure this a feature designed to protect the transmission as well as the rest of the drive train.
In view of the complexity of the transmissions and the need for the vendor to stand behing his product, It would really be unfortunate to have one that has no representative close by. I know the major builders have shops around the country that they recommend to install their transmissions but they are not everywhere so I would make availability of service one of the requirements in my choice of rebuilders.
One of the things that I noticed first with the DTT was the TC lockup. It will lockup normally if not accelerating but otherwise, it is necessary to lift the foot. I have LEDs in my "little black box" that tell me when the PCM is calling for both OD and TC lockup. I also have the mystery switch but neither of them will cause the TC to actually lock until acceleration is backed off. I am sure this a feature designed to protect the transmission as well as the rest of the drive train.
In view of the complexity of the transmissions and the need for the vendor to stand behing his product, It would really be unfortunate to have one that has no representative close by. I know the major builders have shops around the country that they recommend to install their transmissions but they are not everywhere so I would make availability of service one of the requirements in my choice of rebuilders.
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Paul, there's a DTT installer in Michigan goes by the name of LSFarm on the TDR. Do a search using his id. He seems pretty knowledgeable and has had some good reports from members.
Maybe someone could chime in with his number. He's apparently pretty helpful over the phone. Hope this helps. Sorry for your troubles.
Jim
Maybe someone could chime in with his number. He's apparently pretty helpful over the phone. Hope this helps. Sorry for your troubles.
Jim
www.GreatLakesDieselWorks.com Greg Long (LsFarm)
Does Excellent work!
Good luck with your decision.
Curtis
Does Excellent work!
Good luck with your decision.
Curtis
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
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Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
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