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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Autopsy of an APPS
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I have not read the entire thread yet, but I am interested in this part
Worth checking into. I can not remember when the switched to the 6 prong plug tps from the old 3 prong plug.
Gary. When you get the one complete unit, before you take it apart, get some electronic measurements off it. I'm sure the setting is all a matter of clocking it since you have two oval bolt holes.
Worth checking into. I can not remember when the switched to the 6 prong plug tps from the old 3 prong plug.
Gary. When you get the one complete unit, before you take it apart, get some electronic measurements off it. I'm sure the setting is all a matter of clocking it since you have two oval bolt holes.
Roger - will do...
how/what it does and WHY there are TWO parallel signals coming out. Validation signal?
http://www.picotech.com/auto/applications/electronic_throttle_control.html
"The waveform shown in the example trace shows the throttle moving from idle to WOT (Wide Open Throttle) and back once again to idle. The blue trace shows a conventional rising voltage as the throttle butterfly is opened, while the red trace is inverted. The combined signals allow the ECM to calculate a mean voltage output from the two signals allowing the throttle butterfly position to be calculated with greater accuracy. "
I'm emailing every OEM I can find and asking if they carry a 56028184, maby I'll get lucky
http://www.picotech.com/auto/applications/electronic_throttle_control.html
"The waveform shown in the example trace shows the throttle moving from idle to WOT (Wide Open Throttle) and back once again to idle. The blue trace shows a conventional rising voltage as the throttle butterfly is opened, while the red trace is inverted. The combined signals allow the ECM to calculate a mean voltage output from the two signals allowing the throttle butterfly position to be calculated with greater accuracy. "
I'm emailing every OEM I can find and asking if they carry a 56028184, maby I'll get lucky
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I believe the adjustment referred to is to make sure the big spring on the bracket cant twist the little doo dad too far. Installing a new doo dad on a APPS bracket would involve making sure the idle side stop was the same on the doo dad and the APPS bracket. Does that make any sense?
"how/what it does and WHY there are TWO parallel signals coming out. Validation signal?'
From your pointer:
"Combined signals allow the ECM to calculate a mean voltage output from the two signals. This allows the pedal position to be calculated with greater accuracy than when only a single voltage output is taken into consideration. '
From your pointer:
"Combined signals allow the ECM to calculate a mean voltage output from the two signals. This allows the pedal position to be calculated with greater accuracy than when only a single voltage output is taken into consideration. '
wonder if that is why they went from 3 leads to 6 leads
Gary, is this related to the "hesitation with no codes" dicussion we had some time back?
Where I had the shudder thingy at middlin' throttle position in COLD air? Now I have the same thing with an APPS code (0460 I think) and the air don't have to be so cold.
Tenafly-- I couldn't find the APPS on the online catalog. Emailed them--they said "call". What's the point of a website if you have to call everybody all the time?
Since I've figgered out that I still have good WOT, I haven't worried about it much.
I think it was an assembly error that wasn't caught by quality control. The construction -hooks down- is the error.
Where I had the shudder thingy at middlin' throttle position in COLD air? Now I have the same thing with an APPS code (0460 I think) and the air don't have to be so cold.
Tenafly-- I couldn't find the APPS on the online catalog. Emailed them--they said "call". What's the point of a website if you have to call everybody all the time?
Since I've figgered out that I still have good WOT, I haven't worried about it much.
I think it was an assembly error that wasn't caught by quality control. The construction -hooks down- is the error.
Gary, do you have time to follow up on a lead? I have a bite but am helping setup a funeral (not mine) for tomorrow and dont have ttime to spare on the phone.
TD - sure - let me know what you have, either here or PM...
"Gary, is this related to the "hesitation with no codes" dicussion we had some time back?
I doubt it Wade, this seems to be a separate issue - the hesitation bit, especially in colder temps, was seemingly independent of cruise control operation, which would sorta lead to the ECM as the problem - that is why I asked the question farther up above about the CC. I personally don't have any APPS problems, so can't comment first hand on all the effects...
"Gary, is this related to the "hesitation with no codes" dicussion we had some time back?
I doubt it Wade, this seems to be a separate issue - the hesitation bit, especially in colder temps, was seemingly independent of cruise control operation, which would sorta lead to the ECM as the problem - that is why I asked the question farther up above about the CC. I personally don't have any APPS problems, so can't comment first hand on all the effects...
PM sent
HEY - I try to keep up on this stuff to keep AHEAD of potential problems, and have (hopefully!) a cure in hand when a problem DOES arise!
Worked great so far where LP and VP-44 issues are concerned, and might prove valuable for these derned APPS failures as well - of course, if we DO manage to come up with a fix, and a repaired unit, we'll next need a suck, ummmm, a guinea pig to try it out on...
Worked great so far where LP and VP-44 issues are concerned, and might prove valuable for these derned APPS failures as well - of course, if we DO manage to come up with a fix, and a repaired unit, we'll next need a suck, ummmm, a guinea pig to try it out on...
Gary, got your stuffed boxed up today, will ship on Monday (possibly tomorrow) shall I send it next day delievery? :-laf
Regular delivery will be fine - thanks! 
TD - Just got mine yesterday. THANKS!
OK, I went to Cummins to verify the part numbers that WOT posted (CURRENT PART NUMBER FOR THE APPS/TPS SENSOR IS 3970085, RETAIL $336. 00) and it is correct. I want to apologize for my first post stating that it is no longer available from Cummins and is a dealer only part. Now I need to go back to Cummins and b!tch slap a guy named Brian (READ - educate him about the new part number). So far, it is confirmed that the sensor itself is a dealer controlled item (at least through Cummins), and can not be acquired sperately.
There is a possibility of getting another 10 - 20% off, but I don't want to post how yet. I need to make some calls to verify. It is under the premise that other parts for our trucks can be purchased at other brand Big Rig shops with the Cummins label.
Does anybody know anyone who works for Crown or Clark (forklift)? It may be possible that just the sensor is used in some electric applications like forklifts, or golf carts.
Gary - if you have time, could you take one of the sensors to a Kenworth or other Big Rig shop to see if they have seen it used on other rigs? I will do the same here in Denver.
UPDATE - Driving home from work yesterday and the surging was awful (just like the last 4 days) Jumping at idle, and just about everywhere between 1200 and 2000 RPMs. Got home and was waiting for a buddy to come over to do some work on his truck. Home for about a half hour, then decided we would take my truck to go to Cummins to get some parts, and swing by a dealer to have a service manager witness the surging. Guess who decided to behave herself. Fickle b!tch ran smooth as silk. Not one little hiccup in 30 miles of city and highway driving.
I am starting to wonder about this theory about heating the sensor up to get it to work properly. Another test? Stick one in the oven until it gets about 200 - 250* and check the resistance?
OK, I went to Cummins to verify the part numbers that WOT posted (CURRENT PART NUMBER FOR THE APPS/TPS SENSOR IS 3970085, RETAIL $336. 00) and it is correct. I want to apologize for my first post stating that it is no longer available from Cummins and is a dealer only part. Now I need to go back to Cummins and b!tch slap a guy named Brian (READ - educate him about the new part number). So far, it is confirmed that the sensor itself is a dealer controlled item (at least through Cummins), and can not be acquired sperately.
There is a possibility of getting another 10 - 20% off, but I don't want to post how yet. I need to make some calls to verify. It is under the premise that other parts for our trucks can be purchased at other brand Big Rig shops with the Cummins label.
Does anybody know anyone who works for Crown or Clark (forklift)? It may be possible that just the sensor is used in some electric applications like forklifts, or golf carts.
Gary - if you have time, could you take one of the sensors to a Kenworth or other Big Rig shop to see if they have seen it used on other rigs? I will do the same here in Denver.
UPDATE - Driving home from work yesterday and the surging was awful (just like the last 4 days) Jumping at idle, and just about everywhere between 1200 and 2000 RPMs. Got home and was waiting for a buddy to come over to do some work on his truck. Home for about a half hour, then decided we would take my truck to go to Cummins to get some parts, and swing by a dealer to have a service manager witness the surging. Guess who decided to behave herself. Fickle b!tch ran smooth as silk. Not one little hiccup in 30 miles of city and highway driving.
I am starting to wonder about this theory about heating the sensor up to get it to work properly. Another test? Stick one in the oven until it gets about 200 - 250* and check the resistance?
For starters, why not try taking the cleanest, smoothest of what TD sent ya, and switch it with yours - might work better than what you have, and buy some time until we get a good look at what TD sent...
Yeah, will definitely be looking for other sources - chances are slim, but what the hey...
Yeah, will definitely be looking for other sources - chances are slim, but what the hey...
My truck is developing a habbit.
Within the first 20 minutes of running after being shut down for at least 8 hours, the surging starts and continues for at least another 10 (when I get either to work or home). If I shut her down for 15 minutes or so, the start her back up and drive again... no more surging.
Two days ago I was on my way home from work but had to stop and get a couple of things. I decided when I pulled into the parking lot that I would head out to the dealer to have them witness it, though I said nothing out loud, lest the truck hears me this time as behaves. 10 minutes later I get back in and start heading for the dealer. I got one more little stretch of the surging (about 8 blocks) then when I got on the highway, it was gone, and of course ran like a champ when I pulled into the dealer service center. The hooked up the OBD II scanner and verified what I told them (no codes) and checked the various sensor readings. Nothing, nada, nadinsky. Everything was acting as it should. Three different sensors on the truck to monitor RPM, TPS showed smooth changes percentage wise, and the voltage was right on the money.
The service manager advised me that other things could be causing this. The alternator, CPS, fuel pressure... blah blah blah.
Next week I pull the Edge out and the boost elbow to take her to the dealer right after work, now that I know that it will be right in the peak of the surging cycle. By god, I am going to have them witness this one way or the other. All the better if they go for a ride with me and hook up the scanner.
Gary - Have you started tinkering with the sensors TD sent you yet? I started just by taking some readings on the resistance. All different but within . 20k ohms. The voltage number on the label is different on all of them as well.
Within the first 20 minutes of running after being shut down for at least 8 hours, the surging starts and continues for at least another 10 (when I get either to work or home). If I shut her down for 15 minutes or so, the start her back up and drive again... no more surging.
Two days ago I was on my way home from work but had to stop and get a couple of things. I decided when I pulled into the parking lot that I would head out to the dealer to have them witness it, though I said nothing out loud, lest the truck hears me this time as behaves. 10 minutes later I get back in and start heading for the dealer. I got one more little stretch of the surging (about 8 blocks) then when I got on the highway, it was gone, and of course ran like a champ when I pulled into the dealer service center. The hooked up the OBD II scanner and verified what I told them (no codes) and checked the various sensor readings. Nothing, nada, nadinsky. Everything was acting as it should. Three different sensors on the truck to monitor RPM, TPS showed smooth changes percentage wise, and the voltage was right on the money.
The service manager advised me that other things could be causing this. The alternator, CPS, fuel pressure... blah blah blah.
Next week I pull the Edge out and the boost elbow to take her to the dealer right after work, now that I know that it will be right in the peak of the surging cycle. By god, I am going to have them witness this one way or the other. All the better if they go for a ride with me and hook up the scanner.
Gary - Have you started tinkering with the sensors TD sent you yet? I started just by taking some readings on the resistance. All different but within . 20k ohms. The voltage number on the label is different on all of them as well.
I haven't yet received anything from TD - still waiting patiently...
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
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