Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) B1 - Twins ???Questions???

[Mark_Kendrick]

You're never gonna see flow numbers on a hybrid. there are no maps for them. For a ballpark the B1 flows ~20%more than an HX40 on the compressor side.



Sorry to hear You won't be at the dyno day. I was looking forward to killin a few cold ones. These wars are hell on hobbies aren't they?



I'll be in Lindsay on Sunday. Maybe we can get together later.



Take it easy,

Mark

 

[KWIKKURT]

Originally posted by Jim Fulmer

That little outlet is nice but it's just a Mod... no big deal



I would hope the B-1/B-2 would be allot better than mine and no doubt that it is. It would have to be... ... that's almost 3 times as much money in turbo's as I have and you still have that silly wastegate to deal with..... cost and just something else to leak but it works.



You must get your turbo's pretty darn cheap. I am assuming that you are running a PDR 40?. Last sales figures I heard the B-1's are running less than 35% to 45% more and The B-2's (Ready to go - no mods needed) sell for $100 to $250 more than the Ht3b's.



Silly WasteGate? ----- Just like with most of the B-1 Bombers, the B-1/B-2 Twin setup is well matched so many will not even need any wastegate. Boost levels are normally right on what is needed. And we do not need them to keep the turbos from failing either.





Were is the data on the B-2 or the B-1 for that matter, I've never seen flow numbers on either turbo..... maybe I missed it!



As Mark says in his post: "You aren't likely to see Maps and flow rates on custom built / hybrids". For one it would greatly be a waste of time. Even a hx40 will flow more CFM then our engines will accept. The real specs that matter are the Charge air temp at boost, what boost levels are practical with each turbo, and Drive-ability (For many of us this is even more important then the top HP#) What is the data that is critical? What can you expect performance wise when they are on our 5. 9L CTD's.





Offshore racer, don't know the name just the situation and that's what I was thinking, if Doug can't blown on up then who can..... a truck puller... . again I don't doubt the toughness of the turbo.



For the record: Including all R&D with any and all of the B-1 Bomber Variations that we have tested and/or sold there has been Two failures that I have heard of. (Numbering in the Dozens of different configurations we have tested)



One was a build error on our part - It failed in less than a couple of minutes - the first time it was pushed over 20 psi. It was replaced in 24 Hours. The customer has been happy ever since



The other one was bought used from some one other than us (We offer free inspections of used B-1's before or after purchase)



Keeping it short - The info we were told was the truck was around 500+ hp with nitrous, Several different turbos had also failed on the same truck before and after the B-1 install (Hx 40's, H2e's, etc?). One even the same day - same race track- If I remember correctly. According to posts and a phone call or two Chris really like the Turbos response (compared to his H2e Hybrid?)on the street and expected a record low ET on the 1/4 run when the failure happened.



That one we are at a total loss to why it failed? Before and Since then numerous B-1 Bombers (All variations) have been pushed well over 700 RWHP Dozens if not hundreds of times. During R&D on the 1st B-1 I removed a Exhaust housing to try another and found FOD Damage to a turbine wheel. I drove it 1000 miles back to the shop, we cleaned up the damaged wheel and rebalanced it. Two years later it is still out there somewhere making HP.



Even though it (Chris's B-1) was purchased used, not from us and was installed without our inspection I offered them a new B-1 at a discount for several reason's.



1. We wanted the failed B-1 to study as it was (and still 2 years later) and is the only B-1 that had failed in use.



2. Chris was running some very low ET's and I was confident he would set new records.



The offer was declined and we are still waiting for a High HP Failure to analyze. What is the weakest link in a B-1??? Years later I can count the number of bearings sets refreshed/replaced on one hand. So our reliability record is around 99% of all B-1's sold are still in use.







Thanks for the data that's good stuff to know... ... I like those drive pressures, I'll go back and test mine at that PSI as I know at 60 there 1 to 1.



Jim

I want to add that the B-1 / B-2 Turbo combination is probably the best and maybe the most economical compound setup for many. All it takes to spend more on a system using other turbos is one upgrade or failure.



Many of my customers have upgraded turbos more than once. They install a HX40 or a hybrid 35. soon only to need more EGT drop or worse in some of the 400+ HP trucks they experience failure. By the time they have installed a second replacement charger they are way over the cost of a B-1. Not to mention labor costs. And all the while getting about half of the EGT reduction of a B-1.



With almost any work or upgrade you are ahead of the game in work and cost to plan ahead and not do things over. Early in my bombing I changed/upgraded Fueling boxes and injectors several times. If I would have just started with DD'3 injectors and the PE Comp at the start I would have been way ahead money wise having not paid for the extra shipping costs and selling my stuff used at a loss.



This is where TDR and similar are going to help many save tons of money. Just by reading our real world results they can go straight to our end results. I bet if you did surveys asking the current Compound twins owners what they have spent in turbo upgrades on there way to where they are now it is as much or more then even a B-1/B-2 setup.



If you add streetability, with max towing HP/egt limit and reliability then the B-1 Bombers give you more for your money.



After the B-1 the only way to go upgrade is twins! From there the B-2 and Plumbing is the almost the same cost as a Ht3B or equal and Plumbing. Only difference is you have one of the best ,most rugged & reliable systems that will give even the 500 HP towing truck lower EGT's, Less smoke if any, Lower coolant temps and Lower auto trans temps when you are really working it. And have lots of room for more fueling upgrades.





Of-course some of this is only my opinion!

P. S. Did I miss anything??

 

[KWIKKURT]

Re: Banks E-brake??

Originally posted by Hemiless

Kurt,



Do you have a B1 setup that will allow me to keep my banks E-Brake? Oo. Oo.

Like mark said it will have the round clamp outlet like most hx35's. If yours Bolts to the turbo rather than with mounting with a clamp it will not fit.

 

[TxDieselKid]

You must get your turbo's pretty darn cheap. I am assuming that you are running a PDR 40?. Last sales figures I heard the B-1's are running less than 35% to 45% more and The B-2's (Ready to go - no mods needed) sell for $100 to $250 more than the Ht3b's.

I know Jim can speak for himself, but his top turbo is the turbo that the truck came with, with only an exhaust house change. That's how he can say that.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I agree and disagree with Kurt.



The B1 is the best all round turbo available for a CTD in terms of spoolup, reliability, egts etc. I am a proponent of wastegates.



The B1-B2 twins are awesome as are the B1-'Big Brother' setup, especially for 550++ HP.



BUT the hy9 or HX35 mated to a BHT3b or a B2 are the most economical and drivable way to have 500+ hp all day everyday for towing WITHOUT worrying over EGTs.



I build and sell both. Both have their merits. But to say one is better than the other requires stating the application. the level of hp combined with the stated tasks will requre a certain minimum performance standards that will put one setup ahead of the other.



REMEMBER a set of compounds will always be at least slightly slower than the smallest turbo in the set.



The B1 twins setups have the added cost of a B1. The stock turbo can be economically and reliably integrated into a set of turbos that is more streetable than the best of B1s. A set of twins will cost about 1. 5-2 times the cost of a B1 and downpipe.



Is it worth it to YOU?



The B1 twins don't come into their own until you need more than 550-600 hp on a regular basis. This is the point at which the efficiency of the stock turbos is becomming a hinderance to the sytem.



All sets of twins should have a wastegate for the secondary compressor to allow a small enough housing to make them responsive low in the rpm range yet efficient on the top end.



A set of twins with a lazy secondary (the smaller of the two) is not worth the effort for a daily driver.



The whole I dea behind compound chargers is to have your cake and eat it too. The should spool extremely fast and allow the engine to breathe very well under load and/or rpm. If they don't do both you are better off to use a single and NOS for the short rip down the strip.



FWIW,

Mark

 

[DHayden]

Mark can you explain this to me a little more:

The B1 twins don't come into their own until you need more than 550-600 hp on a regular basis

Guys are saying they get 53-55psi out of a B1 and isn't it about 65psi for the twins? I realize it's 65psi for the twins mainly because of what the head can handle. But how much lower are the egt's with the twins than with a single B1? What exactly brings the twins "into there own"? Thanks, Dean

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

The B1/b2 twins are superior to the hx/3b in terms of power capability but you won't notice the difference between the two until you get near the limit of the hx/3b then the b1/b2 shine in comparison. As the hx/3b begin to fall off in efficiency the b1/b2 are running strong.



don't forget that the b2 can beused with the hx and hy too. extending their range a little further than the 3b.



getting 53psi out of a single is running way to far to the high side of the map.



65psi out of twins is working the turbos about like 25-30psi out of a single.

 

[JR2]

The secret to any set of twins is matching them to the fueling you have. You can put a huge set of twins on a truck and if you don't have the fuel you will not be happy.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

The B1/b2 twins are superior to the hx/3b in terms of power capability but you won't notice the difference between the two until you get near the limit of the hx/3b then the b1/b2 shine in comparison. As the hx/3b begin to fall off in efficiency the b1/b2 are running strong.



Yep agreed, there is a limit to everything... . are you saying that I'm past the limit of my setup



Seriously I've done everything I can to burn more fuel with my setup, then Piers found just a bit more but all of us know I'm at the limit's end..... Dean you can see this in the air temp at the hat, if you try pushing it (more boost) the air temp goes up quick.



Yes Andrew is correct, my top turbo is the original one as far as I know(truck had 64K when I bought it) but I do run an 18. 5 on it, the rest of the setup is my build job with a PDR HT3B that I paid retail for a 14 Months ago, at that time I was at about 450 hp and I've made a few changes to it since then, went from a 16 to an 18. 5 housing on the 35 and added the divorced wastegate (the silly one I was referring to) so as I figure that turbo was free, that's why the turbo prices are so cheap. The cheapest Twins that I can think of are a stock little turbo and an off the shelf HT3B, that setup has allot of potential in it for the do it yourselfer but had it's limits. I've been wanting a 40 for a while now (before Muncie) but something always get's in the way..... must be a reason. Heck I'd like to see what the truck would do with that B-1/ Big Brother combo as I'm already at 700... . probably break allot of stuff.



On the B-1, I never said I doubted it but it's man made it's going to break and I didn't realize anyone pushed it in to the 700 zone except Doug..... I stand corrected, no doubt it has a great track record but like Mark said above it has it's place in Twins. I went straight from a stock 35 to Twins so I don't know about the double buying thing but I see your point, it would have been nice(now) if I had bought the a 40 then.



Peace, Jim

 

[propuller]

Did you guys see on the Northwest Bombers site that Nathan wright made i think 783 with i believe a Piers 40 on top of a B2. Correct me if im wrong Nathan. Kurt.

 

[DEZLPWR]

Originally posted by propuller

Did you guys see on the Northwest Bombers site that Nathan wright made i think 783 with i believe a Piers 40 on top of a B2. Correct me if im wrong Nathan. Kurt.

Hey Propuller, re-read that NWBombers thread thoroughly... It was a joke. NO ONE dynoed. There was supposed to be an Idaho Dyno Day, but Doug, the guy who owns the dyno place, Meridian Motorsports, was a no-show for the event! People came from all over to the event, and it never happened. Many unsuccessful attempts were made to contact Doug on the event day but to no avail... . Can you say #@$%! #@$%!???

 

[propuller]

DEZLPWR nobody ever tells me anything:-laf :-laf. . This is how rumors get started sorry Nate. Did this guy ever finally show up & what was his excuse. Kurt.

 

[KWIKKURT]

I was at that dyno event! You remember I put down 1,237 RWhp with my Hy9 and a Water hose stuck into the airbox!







Jim It would be hard to compete $$$ wise with a stock/ 0 cost turbo... . Actually that turbo cost you $20,000 or more??





As for the B-1/B-2 twins "Coming in" at 500+ or above.

I disagree. Even the B-1/B-2 Twin setup I have driven where the fueling was well setup was perfectly streetable and that was with a very tight Convertor / Automatictransmission. The Bottom end spool up was great without smoke concerns with Big injectors.



There are faster versions of the B-1's out almost every week. The KSB-1B right now is the version we recomend to the Automatic trucks that have installed a Bombed automatic with the tight convertor and of course they have fuel to go with it. Since the HY9 will not cut it they have to go bigger turbo. The KSB-1B is the best (single) solution we have found yet.



A twin setup with one of the Faster KSB-1B's would have to be very kwik spooling. I do agree that a Hy9 with a B-2 would be extremely "KwiK spooling and also a cheaper set of twins. But I bet back to back with the same fueling the B1/B2 will give more HP and Lower EGT. Either setup would be fine for low end Compound needs 400+ HP and the B-1/B-2 setup would have far more room to grow. Almost every Bomber I know always wants more, More, More sooner or later.





Boil it all down and I think it will end up being three different systems.





Budget/ Starter system: Stock Hx35 or HY9(for the "slushoMatics" and a B-2

Hp range 400 to 600+



Standard system: Hybrid 40 or B-1 (KSB-1B for auto and High altitudes) and the B-2

Hp range 450 to 800+





Bomber / Big Dog system : B-1 and a Big Brother

Hp range 500 to 1000+



Now we just have to find their HP limits so we can make bigger ones!!!!!!

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Dang this is getting good I like that last part of the post... . I'd bet with a nice fresh short block and some air I could slap the heck out of 800 hp, there is just too much fuel to burn,... 700 hp and the road is still gone, but there is one big issue... ... Money, I don't have allot but I do what I can... . next year is going to be fun and we... ... all of us are going to blow the top off of it.



Lotto anyone, this is way past my budget!



Jim

 

[snowracer69]

Drugs... . twins... drugs... . twins... . drugs... . LOL.



Aight Kurt, when is your wastegate actuator gonna be ready for me? I'm a long ways from twins (ok, not that far, but still a ways off), but would like to see what the wastegate could do for me when I get home and finally have access to a dyno.



Will have Mach3's by then as well... maybe get even better spool outta this thing up here. Yeah, it's good now, but it's not all that I'd dreamed of, hence I'm looking at twins.



Josh

 

[DHayden]

Well the B1 is in, thanks Kirt. Hopefully it won't be long before the twins but I hopefully have the best foundation now. I just have to get going on the clutch, I put the BD3's in with the B1 and my stock clutch can't handle a little stomping for passing on the highway

 

[Idaho CTD]

Originally posted by Mark_Kendrick

The b1 flows more than an H2E and the b2 drastically outflows the 3B and spools faster. All of which lend themselves to lower temps and drive pressures.



Later,

Mark

While I agree with this statement to a degree I dont think the B2 drastically outflows a 3B. I ran a 40/3B and then switched to a 40/B2. I also added something else at the same time so I cant say wether or not the B2 added the 40hp I gained. I actually believe the other item was responsible for most of the gain. The B2 does spool better and does provide slightly lower temps but drastically better is stretching it as I can still reach 1500*.



If someone really wants to keep their costs down then a stock 3B is the way to go. If I was thinking of buying a modded 3B or a B2 I would choose the B2 for 100-200 more. Me I have outgrown both and I'm searching for the holy grail in bottom turbos

 

[KWIKKURT]

Originally posted by Idaho CTD

While I agree with this statement to a degree I dont think the B2 drastically outflows a 3B. I ran a 40/3B and then switched to a 40/B2. I also added something else at the same time so I cant say wether or not the B2 added the 40hp I gained. I actually believe the other item was responsible for most of the gain. The B2 does spool better and does provide slightly lower temps but drastically better is stretching it as I can still reach 1500*.

IdahoCTD,



I think you are better off looking for ways to get more of the Air you have thru the engine! If someone would just custom build heads for us then we are ready to go!!!



Serousily though what is the temp at your air horn? If it's more than 85-100 degF you can lower your egt's by switching out the HX40.

 

[fullthrottlefarmer]

I want to add twins to my truck. I think I will use the ht3b and the hx 35 I already have. Truck last dynoed at 390 rwhp how much boost will this make?I dont want to make over 48lbs or so of boost so my head gasket will hold up. The 3b will have a 26 hoseing I belive and no wastegate. Thanks for any info.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Depending on how over fueled you are now you should gain 10-20% over the stock turbo.



you should make less than 50 psi of boost. 45-48 sounds right.



You will still need a large external wastegate.



fwiw,

Mark