2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Ball joints... I'm stumped

[TRoe]

Based on what I have read on this site, I bought the quad4x4 ball joint kit including 4 greaseable joints and the tools including the press. The caliper and rotor came off relatively easy, and the axle nut came loose with a quick hit from the impact, but all progress stops there.

I've PBBlasted, pounded with a 1" diameter brass drift and 5lb hammer, did the 'power steering as hydraulic press' thing, all with the 4 bolts backed off approximately 1/8" for max thread engagement and yet room to move. It ain't moving, after 8 hours of cursing and pounding. #@$%!

When I sit there and stare at it, trying to will it to move, I look at the ball joints and that long axle (passenger side, obviously) and decide that I am in over my head. You hafta start somewhere, which is why I tried in the first place, but I am stumped.

I was quite dissappointed that quad4x4 doesn't include instructions, but being a Saturday afternoon, contact with them isn't an option. Most tools included in the kit make sense, but there is one piece that makes no sense at all. A .pdf version of the instructions or a video on the website would be nice. I do have the factory repair manual, but that isn't helping. So, the next thing would be finding info online. I need step by step instruction to deal with the issues. Such as the one I am having now, and if I get that far, how do you get the axle shaft to go back into the diff? Is there some tapered sleeve in the housing that lines up the shaft with the diff? I need help before I finally admit I wasted several hundred dollars on tools that will end up being useless to me, and spend several hundred more to have a shop do the job.

 

[jelag]

We were changing a hub out and fought it for some time... . at the shop I've got a large Hilti drill hammer used for concrete drilling and chiseling... I ended up putting the drill in the chisel mode and in 30 seconds the hub was loose and free... . I later had to go back and use a grinder to clean up the burrs and ridges but with a lot of anti-seize it went back together without a hitch. . We also used a flapper wheel to buff all surfaces before the anti-seize... . clean rust free, hopefully if we have to take it back apart we'll be able to do it... .

We're in an area where we use a lot of chemicals on the road in the winter... and the rust on the undercarriage is really bad. .

We've offered a group of guys new hubs, and to be honest we've not thought about any kind of instructions... there really isn't much of an answer for the corrosion... .

I know this isn't an answer to get you past the problem, just needed to share that your not the only one where the common tricks just didn't work... .

 

[NIsaacs]

I have not changed out one of the Dodge 4x4 hub bearings yet so I am not exactly sure what is involved. However I have used a 12 ton hydraulic jack as a portable press on numerous occasions in the past for hard to move items. When you use the jack on its side you need to make sure the piston pump is down so the oil can be pumped and wrap a 5/16 high tensile chain around the base of the jack and what ever you are pulling on. While you are glaring at the sucker and willing it to move use your imagination and see if this is possible.



Nick

 

[BDaugherty]

I just got done helping a friend change one hub bearing and all 4 ball joints on his '01. The hub bearings on his came off easy enough with a 6lb hammer and 2 cold chisels. The ball joints... mainly the bottom ones fought me hard. I had the axle on a large jackstand on concrete. I was beating on the bottom ball joints with a 6lb hammer and then put the ball joint press on them, maxed out the screw with a 1/2 impact, and beat on the side of the "C". This worked on the driver side, but the passenger side had to be ground down and systematically destroyed. I have a shop full of professional mechanic's tools, but I don't have a torch. I think that a little heat would've made the job much easier... even if it was just a plumber's torch with mapp gas. Next time I do one, I will make sure to have some heat on hand.

 

[Bessler]

Some times these things just need to soak. Mix your self up some 50/50 Acetone- ATF, brush it on reassemble every thing, drive it around allowing the vibration to work the solution in. Add more of the 50/50 to the Hub and ball joints though the week while driving then hit it again next week-end. (Hint Work the job verse's letting it work you)

 

[SMorneau]

On my 96 I used a couple of large chisels as wedges and drove them between the disk and the knuckle both top and bottom. It didn't seem to hurt anything. That was the first time it came off. Every time since then it has been easy because of the massive amounts of antiseize I use during assembly.

 

[bboxall]

Some times these things just need to soak. Mix your self up some 50/50 Acetone- ATF, brush it on reassemble every thing, drive it around allowing the vibration to work the solution in. Add more of the 50/50 to the Hub and ball joints though the week while driving then hit it again next week-end. (Hint Work the job verse's letting it work you)

There has been some extensive testing done and THE BEST penetrating fluid is the 50/50 acetone/atf. As a mechanical engineer I agree with every word in this post.

 

[SMolteberg]

I also fought the rust problem when I had to change my ball joints. Instead of beating down on the hubs to get them out I just decided the ball joints where toast anyway so I just took of the nut on the driveshaft and then fired the torch and cut the ball joints. Then I took the whole hub/spindle unit to the press and pressed out the hub from the spindle, I think I needed 50 tons of pressure before the spindle let go, but no stress on the bearing.



The rest of the job where easy. If you think a torch are just too brutal I think you can cut the ball joints with a big angle grinder too.

 

[RDHamill]

has anyone had any luck using a bolt and the power steering as a press?

 

[Tinman]

About 5 years ago I replaced the ball joints on the 01 at about 100K. Turned out the problem was the track bar. Anyway, I went thru the same thing your going thru now. I used Quad 4X4s kit and used their hammer pin and socket on the 4 hub bolts. It worked but I probably spend at an hour on each hub hammering away. Patience is key. I recently re-did this job b/o the stock wheel bearings finally crapped out at 175K. The BJs where still good but I did everything this time (BJs, wheel bearing, U joints). The anti-seize applied at the original removal made a huge difference. Take comfort in knowing you won't have to go thru this again. The one trick I used was to get a 6 inch bolt to thread into the back of the hub and fram on that to drive out the hub. Much easier than the way Quad recommends. It'll destroy the bolts but it's worth it. Another pearl; take great care to keep dirt off the ends of the stub shafts when re-inserting them thru the axle tube seal. Guess why I know this. :-laf

 

[SRath]

has anyone had any luck using a bolt and the power steering as a press?

Absolutely! It worked like a charm on my Iowa-road-salt corroded '96 plow truck. It had never been apart before and had 160k on it.



Things got real UGLY though when it came to removing the front lower control arm bolts... you know: the expensive cam bolts fitted to the wimpy stamped sheet metal axle brackets. The bolts that were put inside rubber-bushed, uncoated or lubed raw steel sleeves so they could fuse themselves together forever. After awhile, you no longer care about saving the control arms, you just want the danged things off while your axle still has a bracket left.

 

[DSeamans]

hubs

Sometimes the socket and steering works. I had my kid turning the wheel and didn't realize how hard she was cranking - ended up blowing the ps pump. It sheared the shaft inside. I think how tight they fit new has a lot to do with how tight they rust in. I planned to replace mine and ordered them ahead of time. I tried all of the tricks and ended up heating them with the firewrench and then melting wax in as they cooled. The wax pulls in like soldering copper fittings and then they pounded out.



There is a ebay store that sells the hub units. They were the only place I found this summer with a lifetime warranty. For my 01 4X4 with antilock was $110. I did a LOT of research before I'd buy ebay. They are a mega seller with a great rep. I actually called them and talked to them. So far I am very happy.



Dave

 

[Extreme1]

I've used a slide hammer (big Snap-On unit) and the extension/power steering method. The extension/power steering method pushed the hub out nice and easy on an '01 last summer. I pounded for 15 minutes when I did my '94.



The anti-sieze is a requirement for a better future lifr experience. The parts come out without any pounding or force needed. You do need to remove all the rust scale prior to coating and reassembling though.

 

[Bloomy]

I guess I must be on the lucky side. I have been able to get hubs out of my, 95 with 185k, 1998 with 235k, another 95 t-tag plow truck and my current 06 plow truck with 85k all in central PA, by using the power steering and various 1/2" drive extensions. The 06 was actually the most difficult, but it came out with a little bit of work. I take all of the bolts out and use one as the press bolt. Less likely to bind. But, like I said probably just lucky. After reinstallation, I guarantee they come back out much easier.



Thomas

 

[bboxall]

I just took my bearing hubs off and replaced the ball joints. BY FAR, the easiest way to get the bearing hubs off is to use a pneumatic impact hammer. Buy a Lisle front hub and knuckle separator for your impact hammer. I got mine at Tooltopia.com
Lisle (LIS39300)
Front Hub and Knuckle Separator $15. 18

Back the hub bolts 3/16" of an inch and use the LIS39300. The head of the bolt fits up in the hammer so it doesn't ruin your bolts. Water the hub/knuckle joint with 50/50 penetrating oil (50% acetone/50% ATF) and hammer away. Turn steering wheel all the way to the right and you can get the front two bolts on the passenger side and the rear two bolts on the driver side. Then turn wheel full the other way and get the other two pairs. You will have to walk the hubs off evenly or they will bind. My 2001 truck has 143,000 miles and I got both mine off in 45 minutes.

Do yourself a HUGE FAVOR and use ANTI-SEIZE on EVERYTHING when putting back together!

 

[bboxall]

I highly recommend Kevin's (N7gxz) document:

http://home.avvanta.com/~n7gxz/Procedure_to_change_the_axle_seals_on_the_front_axle_on_a_2001.doc

You can save yourself some time by putting the truck in 4WD prior to disassembly otherwise your spline collar will fall down inside the axle disconnect or CAD. Easy to remedy if it does, just remove the vacuum actuator and slide collar over on spline of intermediate shaft, install half shaft back into axle then move spline collar back to normal position and reinstall vacuum actuator with shift fork in collar's groove.

One other thing Kevin lists that is important: put heavy piece of paper into axle tube before installing half shaft. Very good advice! I cleaned and greased my spline and axle seal surface on my half shaft and then used the front cover of the Bass Pro Shops catalog inside the tube. The paper prevents the spline or sealing surface from picking up grit and/or rust inside the axle tube which could damage the seal and contaminate the axle oil.

If anyone has questions I can take detailed photos on my truck and post. Whole job went very well thanks to advice obtained here on the TDR! Thanks to everyone!

 

[TRoe]

Update

Thanks for all the suggestions. Now here is the update.

Some of this is just what worked for me, and some is just personal opinion in regards to what works for others.

1. I am not a fan of the power-steering-as-a-press thing. My wife is 5'9", grew up as a farm girl working hard, and goes to the gym a lot. In other words she is quite strong. When she was reefing on the steering wheel and the hub didn't move, I figured it would just be a matter of time until something bent or broke. Think of all the components in the steering system, right down to the tie-rod ends and how much pressure is being put on them. Determining how much pressure is too much is too hard to judge, so my personal opinion is to not try this at all.

2. Pressing on the loosened hub bolts in any manner (ps press, air hammer, or hammer and drift) puts a huge amount of load on the threads of the bolts and the internal threads in the hubs. Proceeding this way would render the internal and external threads toast, IMO. (I am a journeyman machinist, BTW) If you are intending to replace the hubs AND all 8 bolts (very spendy on their own), have at it. Otherwise, proceed in a different manner. My suggestion to follow.

3. I was quite happy with the hardware in the Quad4x4 kit. The press, sockets, ball joints, etc all worked well. However, the kit badly needs a detailed set of instructions. The intended consumer of their parts is the average goon like me (us?), and most of us are not professional mechanics. Having tips and tricks included as well would take the frustration level way down, and greatly increase customer satisfaction. I will still recommend Quad4x4 without hesitation, however.

4. Contrary to Quad4x4's opinion that the ball joint material is too hard to do so, I used a reciprocating saw (Sawzall) to cut the ball joints after popping them loose with the taper of a couple of big chisels between the knuckle and housing 'C'. Using one good quality metal cutting blade (relatively coarse pitch) and a mid-level speed (don't fry the blade and lose its heat treatment), I was able to cut all 4 ball joints apart in about 4 minutes each.

5. With the ball joints cut, the knuckle and bearing hub assembly can be easily removed. Besides having the knuckle out for pressing out the hub bearing, this leaves more room to set up the press on the housing 'C' for removing the remaining bits of ball joint.

6. By carefully supporting the knuckle and pressing out the bearing at this stage, you can save the bearing and the bearing bolts from any damage whatsoever.

Due to not knowing the service history of my truck, and its appearance of having been worked hard, I replaced the ball joints, u-joints, hub bearings, and the bearing bolts (see above for why I did the bolts). I also switched the steering linkage to the inverted T style. If I had replaced the steering before the ball joint job, I would not have full faith in it after doing the ps press due to the stresses involved. Yet another reason to cut the ball joints and press the bearing out instead.

Hopefully this will help some other poor sap like me who got in over his head and needs yet another point of view/ opinion/ option/ etc...

 

[bboxall]

I agree 100%, I don't like the idea of using the power steering as a press, too much chance of bending or breaking something.
I like the idea of cutting the ball joint studs off. You should always change them out anyway so why not cut them off? My air hammer didn't do any damage to the threads on the bolts, I checked but cutting the ball joint studs saves time and effort. Smart idea!
As a mechanical engineer it would be my opinion that the ball studs couldn't be hard all the way through or they would snap off. I'd say case hardened on the ball only.



I did get an instruction sheet from Quad4x4 with my press, if anyone would like PM me and I'll scan it and email it to you.

 

[Newf Limo]

A co-worker, TDR Member, losened the bolts, and put the tire on. Then they used a small lenght of 2x4 between the wheel and the frame. Using the power steering, and working around the wheel, they said it popped right apart. Don't super crank it because the steering power is pretty strong. But it seemed to work like a press and had no problem with both hubs on his truck. (1998 I think)



My mechanic cut mine off with a torch at the ball joints. I had to buy a new hub, to get my ball joints replaced. That was the second time that SAME hub had been off in less than a year, and the previous mechanic used antisieze upon reassembly. Grrr. Damn hubs. I will try the 2x4 method next time. I feel for you mate!



One last idea, incase it hasn't been posted yet. Back the bolts out 1/8th inch. put the wheel back on and drive around in circles and figure eights.



Let us know what worked.



Dennis