Banking Question

[ACoyle]

Businesses can now convert checks into an electronic debt. In doing so they feed the checks into a machine that gets the routing number, account number and the amount. The checks are then shredded right then and there. This is all the bank gets to debt your account.



When you get your statement, you get the check number and the amount. No check or check image is available.



How do you prove payment if necessary. Anybody know?



Thank You



AC

 

[wolfman00hd]

In my experience (Dish Network does this to me), the description of the transaction still shows up on my "Online History" on my checking account. Further research into that transaction at your bank can provide the necessary transaction information for proving it, I would think.

 

[ACoyle]

Hope so - I saw an entry on my statement that just had check number date amount - That tells me what I need to know. In the event of a dispute used to send a copy of the check. I feel a little lonely without is, but, I do see it as the way of the future.

 

[RustyJC]

My bank statement gives the check number and the payee when this happens. I would assume that's your proof.



Rusty

 

[ACoyle]

Again - Hope so. Usually they ask for the copy of both sides. Possibly, since they are the ones that shredded it they are barree from asking.

 

[FATCAT]

If you have to go to the bank to get "Proof" of the check, the bank will gladly help you ... for a fee.



This is another way for them to charge another fee for something the bank use to do as a matter of business for free for their customers.



I use to work for a bank long ago, and I can tell you that the marketing and sales people would dream up the must crazy ideas to charge people more fees for things they use to get for nothing.



If I write a check, I expect the canceled check BACK in my statement, not some line item on the statement. I use the canceled check to VERIFY the line item is correct. There are times when people transpose the amount when entering it into the computer at your creditor's bank.



Let me ask you this ... . would you accept a line item on the statement as proof of payment, or would you want to see someone's canceled check.

 

[RGardner]

What the banking people tell me is that all banks will soon not be returning checks, at best you will get a check image. When 9/11 grounded airplanes for a couple of days it stoped the flow of money with all the cancelled checks sitting in grounded airplanes.

 

[CSnyder]

For over 3 years now in my rural community I have not received my cancelled checks. All I get is a list of check numbers and amounts with a date on a monthly statement and they show an asterick for missing check numbers. I just assumed this was the norm, but after reading this forum I checked into it andfound out I can get a copy of any check for a fee. Go Figure!

 

[RustyJC]

I guess it depends on the bank. Our bank includes images of the front side of all checks processed as checks as part of our monthly statement.



Rusty

 

[AfterBurner]

So does this e-check thing mean that you can't write a check friday morning, knowing that by the time it is cashed, your paycheck would have posted. :-laf

 

[RGardner]

It would seem that "float" is going the way of the dinosaurs!

 

[AKAMAC]

This is odd!!!!! My bank does not return checks but does give me the option of copied visuals of the canceled check (front and rear) online.

I can't see how a secondary institution can shred your paper work. The check is a legal document that has binding contracts to its existence.

I can see it now.

"Your Honor, I did not pay by check, this person, the afore mentioned sum for services rendered and he has no proof of said service".

Or switch the scenario to his position.

The check is a legal document.

 

[loncray]

As I understand it, now they don't have to give you the piece of paper (which does cost a lot of money to move all those millions of pieces of paper around the country), but you can always get a copy of the front and back which will serve as your legal document. Some banks give them to you automatically, some you have to ask (and maybe pay for) the copy.

 

[nps]

Businesses can now convert checks into an electronic debt. In doing so they feed the checks into a machine that gets the routing number, account number and the amount. The checks are then shredded right then and there. This is all the bank gets to debt your account.



When you get your statement, you get the check number and the amount. No check or check image is available.



How do you prove payment if necessary. Anybody know?



Thank You



AC

If the business is converting the check into a EFT debit, your bank statement should show the date, payee's (the business) name and amount. That would prove payment.



Not any different than if you used a credit card statement to prove payment.



I believe there is a responsibility on the part of the business to keep an image of the check in case of any questions or disputes. Just like a credit card merchant that has to keep the slip you sign for cc purchases.



If your bank doesn't disclose the name of the payee on EFT debits then I'd take that up with your bank.

 

[Carlsummers]

If.....



If I write a check, I expect the canceled check BACK in my statement, not some line item on the statement. I use the canceled check to VERIFY the line item is correct. There are times when people transpose the amount when entering it into the computer at your creditor's bank.



Let me ask you this ... . would you accept a line item on the statement as proof of payment, or would you want to see someone's canceled check.

Unfortunately, in the near future, you will be able to "expect" all you want, but you still will not get it..... electronic transactions are here to stay, and whether we like it or not, paper is going away. In fact, after resisting for a while, I now pay 90% of all my bills on-line... . it's easier, faster, less expensive, and I get a confirmation # with every transaction. I know someone will say something about online transactions are dangerous, but, you can get the same info by stealing mail... and that has happened all to many times.....

 

[nps]

I know someone will say something about online transactions are dangerous, but, you can get the same info by stealing mail... and that has happened all to many times.....

Stealing mail? It doesn't have to be that hard. Plus I think the USPS cops are more aggressive. There's a simpler way.



Just take any check (from someone else of course ), punch in the acct # and routing # online, and let them pay your bills for you! Had this happen - former employee took final paycheck issued in paper form and used the acct/routing info to open a cell phone acct and get a spiffy new phone - about $350 worth. Guess they figured the company turnover was too great to notice - WRONG.



Bank redeposited the money. Police would do nothing "Did you get your money back? Yes. Then you've not been harmed - case closed. " Don't know what the bank did to pursue it. Probably just ate the loss.

 

[ACoyle]

Hi everyone, thank you all for your ideas. Please read more closely. I was at the office of a landlord, when I saw this demonstration. The checks are scanned, not at the bank, but at the landlord's office. The routing number, account number and check number are picked up. the operator of the machine visually verifies the payee and the account holders name. Manually enters the amount, if it is different from last month's rent check and clicks OK. This and the same information from all the other rent checks is batched and sent to the bank, obviously with the landlord's account information. The checks are then shredded in the landlord's office. It is not thereofre possible for the bank to have an image of the check.



Yes, on your statement you will get most of that information. On my statement I get only check number amount and date. I have to manually match to my check register.



None of this is my wuestion. I am asking if anyone knows how to prove that a debt was paid when the image of the check is in no way possible. Yes, this is the way of the future. I think that your atm card will become your checkbook and we won't be writing them any more. We will not have the choice in this. Just want to know if anyone with coome recent banking knowledge knows how we prove payment, or how long the merchant or bank has to keep electronic records.



Thank You



AC

 

[nps]

That machine that scans the check better be keeping an image. That's the rules as I understand them.



Then its up to the payee to prove they weren't paid. Your bank should be telling you who the payee is - that's your bank's fault.



Hope this is clear.

 

[ACoyle]

It is very clear, however, I got my bank statement and it had my check number, date posted to my account and amount. Which in this case matched my check of that number.



In the example I was giving of the landlord, it was a saled demo from the company that makes the machine. He stated that the check image would not go to the bank. My bank makes checkimages available on line and I can't get that one.



I wholly agree that it seems fishy, if you have to prove payment, I just don't knwo the banking law.



AC

 

[ACoyle]

Some info, not the whole story:

http://financialplan.about.com/od/banking/a/Check21.htm

Read "Point of sale check conversion"

http://www.solutran.com/products/conversion.htm

Read "Will I get my checks back" There is the culprit.

We are back to keeping our own reciepts.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/credit/echeck.htm