BD's new X convertor

[Archive]

Topfuel... man, you brought back some bad memories for me! My daughter was in the hospital for 4 days right after birth... we had her home for less than 24hrs. Didn't know if she would pull thru or not.

Friends are precious. I have followed this thread and hope your post does the trick. You are right!

Heck, one more post like that, and I would be sending hvac an apology email!

 

[Dak - BD Power]

TopFuel...

Amen #ad

 

[Bob Wagner]

Time to lock the thread and place in the time capsule #ad

 

[John_P]

I can't see how he is wrong as you say he is. The efficiency he calculated is right in line with the best torque converters produced by other aftermarket companies. He used the formula that you listed in your earlier post, cdaledh. Is that formula you quoted wrong now? You cannot use a simple temperature differece to represent a change in energy (q). You must keep the mCp times the temperature difference, or, it can be thrown out if internal energies (enthalpies) of the fluid are used. q = mCp(dT) = m(dh). I used temperatures, the specific heat of transmission fluid, and took the mass flow of fluid to be 1 kg/sec. I highly doubt the line flows more fluid then that.

No matter how his numbers came out, other companies have converters that are 97 and 98% efficient, so it obviously IS possible. Surely every converter maker out there isn't simply lying about their efficiencies. For those non believers of a 98% efficient converters I invite you to look at the brand I showed earlier. Feel free to examine other makers as well. Prove that my son and the other converter manufacturers are wrong on their calculations.

As for the machining of Titanium, I said it was nearly impossible, not impossible. It absolutley can be done, but only with expensive cutting tools. My point in saying what I said was to address the cost issue. A titanium stator is way out of the ballpark pricewise for the average consumer. Possible, yes, but not feasible. Whenever I have seen titanium welded it has always been in a "tub" filled with argon gas and was being welded with a TIG unit. In fact, he was welding a titanium bmx bike frame, and he told me this was the way all bike frames were made (in a "tub". the argon won't come out because it is so much denser than the air. He said the welders can't weld on the frames very long because of the risk of asphyxia when inside the "tub") . He is very in deep with Eastern Bikes, so I am sure he knows exactly how bike frames are welded. I learned that this was the only way to weld titanium, but if I was misinformed then I stand corrected. So far welding has not been added to the curriculum at my school.

 

[Diesel Freak]

oops, it has been a busy day at work.

is this what he used?

(Win-(mCp(dT1-dT2)))/Win

one last thing, what was the Cp of the oil... . of the oils I have found the Cp changed with temp... . if that is true the above eqn will not work.

 

[John_P]

yes, that is the equation I used. It is a standard derivation for the Wout/Qin standard.

For the Cp of the oil, it is standard practice in convective heat transfer to use data that is looked up at the "film" temperature, or Tavg. This basic principle is how many heat exchanger problems are solved. It is too compled to tabulate the Cp at every point in the boundary layer, so the film temperature is universally accepted as an appropriate approximation method. Dr. Corson, who has been working with thermo and heat transfer for over 30 years, has ensured me this is the appropriate method to use. Even if the data is recalculated with the min or max Cp the efficiency does not change much since Q is so much smaller than Win.

I intend to run these calculations by one of my professors tomorrow for the sake of argument. Believe me or not, my numbers fall right in line with the claims of Mr. Roth as well as the claims of other converter makers. I trust my calculations and their claims over anyone's protests that I am wrong. (that's on the efficiency. As far as the welding of titanium... I stand to be corrected. )

 

[ARARAR]

Sounds like this X convertor is the second coming of the Masiah. Does this X tc do it all on its own or does it need and X valve body and an X presureloc and an X torqueloc and an X e-brake???????

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Bob, I try VERY hard not to lock threads although this one is getting close. BD and DTT will have an opportunity to discuss head to head at May madness coming up and I'm working on a part II at Dave's Diesel Thunder in Muncie June 9th. For now I haven't gotten many complaints on this thread - if you guys want this thread shut down email me at stevest@voyager.net - also email me if you want it to stay open, I'll go by the number of votes yeah or nay and go from there. We try very hard to let things go as much as possible but have had to intervene in the past between DTT and BD. Let me know guys.

-Steve St. Laurent
Lead Moderator


[This message has been edited by Steve St. Laurent (edited 05-09-2001). ]

 

[Diesel Freak]

John P
Where did you acquire your data... . I re-read all the posts and none of them have specific temps for both cases of the experiment I was proposing. If you have data from a such a test I would love to see it. Please post your results, I am sure BRoth and others would love to see it. If your data supports the claims of 98% then by all means post them so we can stop the mud slinging.
Keep in mind that I specified running the TC at full load for over one hour each with the TC clutch engaged and dissengaged to ensure the system was as close to steady state a possible

yes, the Tavg works... . (Tin+Tout)/2

But what is the specific heat for ATF?
I could not find it.

[This message has been edited by cdaledh (edited 05-09-2001). ]

[This message has been edited by cdaledh (edited 05-09-2001). ]

 

[BigYellowIron]

TOPFUEL:
I agree strongly. I was wondering what you was leading to in the forst few sentences but it all makes sence now.

I have been reading this thread ever since it started, I just cannot imagine why everyone has to bash.

Everyone:
I just bought a converter, I bought one that met my needs. I'm happy with what i bought and that is all that matters. It is neither a BD or a DTT. I thought the TDR had more mature members, all this talk about my truck can out run yours, out pull yours ect. Thats stuff you talked about in high school.
I know that i know that i will never ask another automatic trans question on here. No offence to Bill K, but any of the post i have made about a tc or an auto trans have had such bias replies, i just wanted to know who else had modified TC for sale, NOT which one i should buy. Most people just want to know OPTIONS! not what you think they should do. Everyone has different needs. People just need to recive unbiased information so they can make an asumption on the homework they have done. This post is irritating to me and i just had to say something to relive myself
Thank you for reading
Adam Harman

 

[John]

Originally posted by John_P:
Making a stator out of titanium will be nearly impossible. The stator has to be a certain size (diameter) so making it from titanium will not only weigh more than aluminum, but the cost to do so will be outragous. It is nearly impossible to machine

Better tell your son to go back to engineering school! I have been machining titanium and ultra trick aluminum alloys for at least 25 years (in fact I've machined materials most have never heard of, and that includes most engineers. . with the exception of metallurigical engineers). A stator could be machined out of titanium however, it would be cost prohibitive. However, know this, titanium properly engineered for the application would make the perfect stator! As for the weight, titanium is extremely strong therefore, the blade thickness can be allowed to be made MUCH thinner to achieve the required strength (just look at trick mountain or road bike frames. . I have one too). So, in reality, titanium, properly engineered for the intended application is actually lighter than ANY other type of metal. Notice I said metal (and not material)... carbon fiber is extremely hard to beat in strength to weight applications (although it probably wouldn't work as well in a stator application). Who cares about the pound for pound weight/strength disparity between aluminum and steel? Fact is, pound for pound plywood is stronger than steel... who gives a RA? The point is this, a high grade of steel used as a stator material can be allowed to be made much thinner than its aluminum counterpart therefore occupying less available space (i. e. , volume), in turn, allowing more fluid to be moved. I would seriously doubt a low strength steel such as the 10 series alloy (1020 for example) is used to make DTT stators. As for welding, titanium can be TIG welded however, in the aerospace industry it is generally fusion welded in "production" applications.

[This message has been edited by John (edited 05-09-2001). ]

 

[K_Arts]

Originally posted by MCrossley:
Bob well said and I for one second that! Bill has done nothing but right by me.

Same here. Bill and his team are like second family to me and my wife. . and I will step up to the plate to back him up anyday!!!

Speaking of DTT, Peronally I have to say that I have never had a company provide me with the level of customer service that Bill't team has done. . they are the Greatest!!! Not only that, but I have so much faith in the DTT team and their product, that when we just bought the wifes new truck... we bought an Automatic with the intention of purchasing Bill's Truck. How many people can say that????

Bill, Thanks for everything that you have done Jamie and I!!!


Kev

 

[Bill Kondolay]

JohnP, and Cdaledh,& John T

You guys are amazing, and way above my head with these mathematical formulas, I have been a transmission technician for over 20 years, but i am not a mechanical engineer.

The technical information you guys have and are trying to share with the TDR membership is complex and very confusing to some.

Jp is correct, most of the tc's in the drag racing industry perform above 94% in todays market place that is the expected norm. However they measure at approx. 6000rpms + , and most of these drag cars are under 3000lbs.

If that same racecar weighed 6000lbs, and you measured it at 6000 rpms the converter will not have performed at the same level.

The same is true if you try to measured this same converter at 2000rpms. There is no way this arguement is going to be settled to everyones satisfaction.

We used the same method the drag racers used to test their converters, simply because it is the method that was available to me and i am familar with it.

We used the same truck, same hp, these figures have no meaning to anyone other than Diesel Transmission Technology, first of all you dont have our truck, you may not have our gear ratio,your tire size may be different, all of these variables will affect the outcome.

If i changeed my gear ratio from the 355 to a 410,the tc efficiency is going to go up simply because there is less load on the converter.

If i increased the amuount of hp, the efficiency level of the tc is going to go down simply because there is more load being placed on the tc by the engine.

I think after reading this post several times, the most individualized test i have seen done was Arlan.

When we were finished doing Arlan's truck, we were trying to figure out what this crazy Californian was doing outside with these ramps he brought with him.

There he was out in our parking lot trying to drive his truck up on these ramps. Why? because that is the measure he used as it was relevant only to him and his needs.

I've never really understood why then, i think i do now.

He wanted his truck to work a certain way for his needs.

And really that is all it is about, if the converter you buy meets all your expectations,perfoms as advertised and makes you happy, that is all that matters in the end.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission

 

[JohnE]

Gang;

I was trying to follow the informational side of this post, but saw that it now appears to be a 3 way challenge between the BD fans, DTT fans, and the stickers.

Steve;
SHUT IT DOWN It has degraded from an initial <em>advertising</em> post into a chest beating diatribe of emotion. It also violates *sect; 6 of your precious code and I quote:
&quot; Vendor Participation (let's be clear . . . this includes
advertising, solicitation, and pricing). &quot;

In this case, 100+ plus posts serves to benefit your advertiser, not the membership.

MHFO
John Erickson
Free Carl

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I've gotten 30 emails about this so far and only 3 of them said to leave it open, the other 27 said shut it down so that's what I'm going to do. John is correct that it is an advertising post that doesn't belong here to begin with as well. We've been trying to take more of a back seat approach on the boards and not strictly enforce the guidelines until something becomes a problem lately. DTT and BD will be having a roundtable discussion at May Maydness and we're working on a round two at Dave's Diesel Thunder in Muncie - those will be much better forums to hash these issues out.

-Steve St. Laurent
Lead Moderator

 

[Bill Kondolay]

To the moderators,

I feel that by closing this thread you will actually not be allowing the technical questions posed to be answered.

That anyone can come on,open a thread,say whatever they want is great,however if the questions asked by many are not answered then what is the point.

There is much to be learned from the pending answers,i for one would like to hear the answer. If what BD is saying is so,and they have made a revolutionary discovery as it also defies the laws of physics, we deserve to know , If what BD claims is true and provable, it will revolutionize the world.

If untrue and not provable we deserve to know that too.

My question remains unanswered and maybe got lost in the post.

To REPEAT, How IS A TC CLUTCH APPLIED?

Where does the apply force against the converter clutch come from?

See how i am looking at it is, i live up here in the NorthWest, we get a lot of rain up here, when we have wide tires on our vehicles they tend to hydroplane on wet roads.

Same sort of deal on icy roads or snow conditions,now on a dry road , a wider tire with more surface area will give you better traction, but it sure wont on a wet road.

My point, how did they manage to defy the laws of physics and squeeze liquid.

All our test studies have shown that increasing the clutch surface area does not help from preventing the tc clutch from slipping. This is confirmed by Raybestos,Borg Warner, Alto, and Sonnax.

Think about the implications in the tire idustry alone, if what they are saying works as claimed, we can now run now run wide tires on wet roads without losing traction.

Indy racing, nascar, all will be affected.
Nascar will no longer have to stop for rain.

You cannot compare an automatic to a standard, on a standard which is a dry clutch,by increasing the surface area you are going to increase your holding capacity, now try soaking your standard clutch in oil and see how much holding capacity you have.

My whole point is, this is an automatic transmission we are talking about, automatics use wet clutchs, now you guys may not like me, but this is what i do every day for a living, if this is truly something revolutionary and they can explain it so that it makes sense to me, as a transmission technician i want to know about it. It defies everything i have been taught for over 20 years and i am certainly willing to learn. So if you are not too busy guys i would really like an answer, i think they are valid questions.

As it was brought to light in this public forum, dont people deserve an answer and the right to digest the data and decide for themselves.

If it is not true as vedors we should be accountable.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology