Best Available Torque Converter

[pcarlson]

I went with BD and haven't had any regrets.



Little snafus's, yes. Product related, No.



Adding more power, yes EDM's arrived today.



Drive, tow, and haul in overdrive, damn right that's what it's there for, only disengage below 50mph, terrain dependent of course.



No slippage, of the TC and it's been 20-25k already up and down the Alcan, MT and WY.



The truck and motor are the best part of this rig. The aftermarket offers great products for your transmission, NO MATTER who you choose. Bottom line when you upgrade you will get a good product.



Happy motoring.

 

[krs]

ATS torque converters are engineered by Mercedes Benz? Gee, that changes everything!!



But if this is not the case it is disingenuous to imply any connection beyond a similarity of concept. As we all know there is a similarity in concept between many things that we use, or don't use. A wrench, for example and to put it simply, made and marketed by Snap-on is much the same in concept as one made in India by 'Blue River Valley' (or whatever) but as we also all know the Indian wrench will break before the Snap-on and furthermore Snap-on will not tell us "We warranty the user, not the wrench" if by some misuse we break one which we did not obtain as the original retail purchaser.



Someone above mentioned looking for how a person profits when seen to be promoting a product. I do that as well and when I see it happening I call it 'shilling'. Well, shills are a common thing in places like casinos but it's a rare thing to find an unpaid shill in one of those. Anyone shilling for free would be foolish I think, considering that they would place at risk their own reputation and credibility for nothing.



So why are there so many shills in here? Is there money in it? If so I'll offer my own services to the highest bidder and promise that I can bring to the task a much greater level of persuasion and subtlety than previously seen.





ed:sp

 

[pwr2tow]

Originally posted by KRS

ATS torque converters are engineered by Mercedes Benz? Gee, that changes everything!!



But if this is not the case it is disingenuous to imply any connection beyond a similarity of concept. As we all know there is a similarity in concept between many things that we use, or don't use. A wrench, for example and to put it simply, made and marketed by Snap-on is much the same in concept as one made in India by 'Blue River Valley' (or whatever) but as we also all know the Indian wrench will break before the Snap-on and furthermore Snap-on will not tell us "We warranty the user, not the wrench" if by some misuse we break one which we did not obtain as the original retail purchaser.



Someone above mentioned looking for how a person profits when seen to be promoting a product. I do that as well and when I see it happening I call it 'shilling'. Well, shills are a common thing in places like casinos but it's a rare thing to find an unpaid shill in one of those. Anyone shilling for free would be foolish I think, considering that they would place at risk their own reputation and credibility for nothing.



So why are there so many shills in here? Is there money in it? If so I'll offer my own services to the highest bidder and promise that I can bring to the task a much greater level of persuasion and subtlety than previously seen.





ed:sp

KRS,

Obviously you missed something or read into Edwards post something that is not there.



He was referring to ATS being the first to use a triple disc Torque Converter with shifts in lockup and for certain applications at stock pressures. Now it appears one of the most prestigious auto makers are doing the same thing.



I have been on this board a long time (longer than most of new transmission parts builders) and I do remember a certain after market transmission company owner stateing that the triple disc torque converter will not work, he went on to state that it will not work because he tried developing a triple disc at one time him ownself and it would not work properly. Gee's give me a break, everyone calls him the best transmission guru and do it right the first time. When it comes straight from the manufacturer you have to sit back and go HHUUMMMMM.



Ron

 

[krs]

"When it comes straight from the manufacturer you have to sit back and go HHUUMMMMM"



Hi Ron,



No I don't have to go HUMMM when it comes to MB as I don't share in the awe of their prowess that many seem to feel. Their cars break with an alarming frequency and usually do so at great expense to their owners. Furthermore, all manufacturer's design decisions are guided if not governed by the requirements of governmental regulation, both ours and other governments, and those stipulations do not necessarily result in features which are beneficial to consumers. In fact they are more often detrimental, at least to the consumer pocketbook.

I see MB's venture as relayed to us above as an attempt to increase overall fuel milage averages for MB products so that they can (hopefully) better meet the Jan. 1, 2004 criteria for remaining active in the US marketplace, and little else no matter how flowery they make the embellishment sound. Time will tell if it holds up but I'll assure you that I won't be part of their beta test crew because I know that I would have to pay THEM to be that and they certainly won't pay ME to do so.



As to your: " I have been on this board a long time (longer than most of new transmission parts builders) and I do remember a certain after market transmission company owner stateing that the triple disc torque converter will not work, he went on to state that it will not work because he tried developing a triple disc at one time him ownself and it would not work properly. Gee's give me a break, everyone calls him the best transmission guru and do it right the first time".



Obviously I do not have your long experience here. Congratulations! But I really am unable to comment about what you've said not having the slightest clue as to whom you are referring. Could you make clear just who it is who made or makes such lofty claims here as those you describe? I apparently missed them.

 

[Edward]

KRS

I would like to wish you and your family a happy holiday season.

I see MB's venture as relayed to us above as an attempt to increase overall fuel milage averages for MB products so that they can (hopefully) better meet the Jan. 1, 2004 criteria for remaining active in the US marketplace, and little else no matter how flowery they make the embellishment sound. Time will tell if it holds up but I'll assure you that I won't be part of their beta test crew because I know that I would have to pay THEM to be that and they certainly won't pay ME to do so.

On this point I agree to a limited point. However my view is that Mercedes Benz utilized a technology that would allow them to make a smaller and lighter torque converter and still have a non-shippable lock-up clutch. So yes they chose to do it to meet the weight/fuel consumption requirements. Every automobile manufacturer must comply with the government standards. Mercedes Benz meets those standards and gives their customer’s two extra go fast gears and a non-shippable multi disc torque converter at the same time. Wow more power to the ground while complying with more restrictive government standards. I couldn't think of a better illustration of excellent engineering practices.



Edward

 

[cummin2pass]

dclassens



I install a brand T/C that hasn't been listed in the four pages.

I don't think it is the best, but it's what I could afford.

I have never been in a truck other than my own.

I paid less than half of the ones here.

Mine has the stall set 400 lower than stock T/C.

My question is, is the only thing you look for in a T/C is its ability to lock up. Mine locks fine, but the rpm's goes higher than I would like when I take off fast.

Does all the T/C work the same, or is it just the lock up?

 

[krs]

Edward,

A non-shippable torque converter might impose a more strict limitation than even ATS would risk.....



In point of fact Mercedes Benz used the same torque converter or the same design feature in their previous models. The only news here is the seven speed technology which was done more for smoothness than for power. To present that usage as argument for the superiority of the system is not supportable in our sphere since the MB system is under very stringent computer control coupled to the onboard fuel management system(s) to maximize power transmission for fuel saving purposes and is thus as different from any system available to our trucks as is the latter wrench mentioned above to the former wrench. It's apples and oranges; while the design(ers) may both be fruity the flavor is entirely different.

 

[pwr2tow]

Originally posted by KRS

"When it comes straight from the manufacturer you have to sit back and go HHUUMMMMM"



Hi Ron,



No I don't have to go HUMMM when it comes to MB as I don't share in the awe of their prowess that many seem to feel. Their cars break with an alarming frequency and usually do so at great expense to their owners. Furthermore, all manufacturer's design decisions are guided if not governed by the requirements of governmental regulation, both ours and other governments, and those stipulations do not necessarily result in features which are beneficial to consumers. In fact they are more often detrimental, at least to the consumer pocketbook.

I see MB's venture as relayed to us above as an attempt to increase overall fuel milage averages for MB products so that they can (hopefully) better meet the Jan. 1, 2004 criteria for remaining active in the US marketplace, and little else no matter how flowery they make the embellishment sound. Time will tell if it holds up but I'll assure you that I won't be part of their beta test crew because I know that I would have to pay THEM to be that and they certainly won't pay ME to do so.



As to your: " I have been on this board a long time (longer than most of new transmission parts builders) and I do remember a certain after market transmission company owner stateing that the triple disc torque converter will not work, he went on to state that it will not work because he tried developing a triple disc at one time him ownself and it would not work properly. Gee's give me a break, everyone calls him the best transmission guru and do it right the first time".



Obviously I do not have your long experience here. Congratulations! But I really am unable to comment about what you've said not having the slightest clue as to whom you are referring. Could you make clear just who it is who made or makes such lofty claims here as those you describe? I apparently missed them.

KRS,

The two quotes you took of mine are about the same company and person, not Mercedes Benz. You obviously have Mercedes Benz on your mind for some reason.



Yes I have been on the board along time and "no" I can not tell you who this person or company is due to the rules of this board.

I can tell you it is not one of the three who do produce a triple disc TC out of five manufactures that are talked about so much on this board. I can also tell you it is a manufacturer that frequents this board yet chooses not to sponsor the TDR. I can tell you it was some one who got kicked off the TDR yet his son is always on the board trying to drum up business. You call it shilling, I call it misrepresentation.



If you would like to know who this person and company is PM me.



Ron

 

[rrausch]

Gee KRS, I didn't miss them, I remember very well those rants by the "Certain Transmission Vendor" who some call a guru. He really did say the ATS TripleLok wouldn't work, and if it did work then it wouldn't last, and if it did last then it would cause extensive damage... etc. etc. That was almost exactly 2 years ago on this board. Part of the reason I went with ATS was the amount of painful squealing I detected in those answers coming from that Certain Vendor.

 

[mstimac]

Boy Ron, you sure carry a grudge! As for the original question, find the date for one of your local TDR meets. I'm sure you'll find a variety of transmission's there, then ask each one to take ya for a ride and make up your mind for yourself. I know I'm happy with mine just like others are happy with what they purchased. Good luck in your decision.

 

[Cooker]

Originally posted by rrausch

Gee KRS, I didn't miss them, I remember very well those rants by the "Certain Transmission Vendor" who some call a guru. He really did say the ATS TripleLok wouldn't work, and if it did work then it wouldn't last, and if it did last then it would cause extensive damage... etc. etc. That was almost exactly 2 years ago on this board.

Merricks didn't last.



I'm not quite certain, but I do not think 2 years ago Billet input shafts were very common or widely available.

 

[pwr2tow]

Cooker,

Just so everyone is on the same page.



Are you talking Triple Disc TC like what is being referred to or are you talking input output shafts?



Ron

 

[pwr2tow]

Originally posted by mstimac

Boy Ron, you sure carry a grudge!

No grudge here, just trying to keep people informed about products or product suppliers and who they maybe dealing with. If there is something about a product or it's supplier I sure would like to know when it comes to me being the one that is shelling out the money.



Ron

 

[Cooker]

Obviously Merricks TC has lasted but the violence of shifting locked to locked damaged something else inside the transmission renendering it usless.



My point was 2 years ago billet input shafts were not all that common. The violence of locked shifting has the ability to, and does break input shafts. What good is a TC if the rest of the transmisison cannot support it? Therefore two years ago a TC that puts and abnormal streess on the input shaft without, at the time, a viable alternative I personally do not consider that to be lasting solution.



Jump forward to today. Billet input shafts have widespread availability. Does ATS sell billet input shafts to all it's customers wishing to shift locked to locked? I don't know the answer but I would guess not.



Merrick himself said it best, it is not a matter of if it will break, it is a matter of when. Has billet solved the problem of shifting locked to locked? I am not a metallurgist so I canont answer that question, but I would venture another guess and say no. Even if the billet input shaft is indestructible I think there are several other parts within the transmission that the violence of locked to locked shifting would be passed on to. Over time I think it would have an adverse affect on the wear of these parts as well. Then the next weakest link is found, and so on. The amount of time to carnage would obviously depend on the driver and truck. Hell, some guys have run their stock transmission to over 300k so I would imagine they could run anybodys aftermarket transmission ndefinitely.

 

[propuller]

Has there been some complaints about excessive vibration from the triple disc converters?



Kurt

 

[StakeMan]

Still running my factory shafts and flexplate after 110,000 miles of abuse.

 

[rrausch]

I think the Mercedes 7G Tronic trans shifts locked also!



The warranty on my ATS, purchased by me in April of 2002 was 65,000 miles, although I believe it is now been upped to 100,000 as the longevity of these transmissions is becoming apparent.



ATS designs and improves the 47RH & 47RE internal components to be able to take locked shifts. They have done the most thorough job of engineering of any of the Performance trans builders as far as I can tell. I don't think ANY other Performance Trans is built to take locked shifts... and boy are the other guys jealous!

 

[Hummin Cummins]

I don't think ANY other Performance Trans is built to take locked shifts... and boy are the other guys jealous!

I'd argue that point. Dave Goerend will build you a transmission for what you want or for where you want to be. Billet shafts and all, stand behind his t/c for life, and transmission for 100,000. (unless you get billet shafts then theyre life too)



I'm extremely happy with mine. Hook up the camper, throw 'er in overdrive and haul a$$ down the road with no worries.



I usually dont get in these transmission threads, but do yourself a favor. Call them all. Make the decision for your self. You'll be glad you did no matter who's part you buy.

 

[pwr2tow]

Originally posted by Cooker

Obviously Merricks TC has lasted but the violence of shifting locked to locked damaged something else inside the transmission renendering it usless.



My point was 2 years ago billet input shafts were not all that common. The violence of locked shifting has the ability to, and does break input shafts. What good is a TC if the rest of the transmisison cannot support it? Therefore two years ago a TC that puts and abnormal streess on the input shaft without, at the time, a viable alternative I personally do not consider that to be lasting solution.



Jump forward to today. Billet input shafts have widespread availability. Does ATS sell billet input shafts to all it's customers wishing to shift locked to locked? I don't know the answer but I would guess not.



Merrick himself said it best, it is not a matter of if it will break, it is a matter of when. Has billet solved the problem of shifting locked to locked? I am not a metallurgist so I canont answer that question, but I would venture another guess and say no. Even if the billet input shaft is indestructible I think there are several other parts within the transmission that the violence of locked to locked shifting would be passed on to. Over time I think it would have an adverse affect on the wear of these parts as well. Then the next weakest link is found, and so on. The amount of time to carnage would obviously depend on the driver and truck. Hell, some guys have run their stock transmission to over 300k so I would imagine they could run anybodys aftermarket transmission ndefinitely.

Cooker,

In essence what your telling us is that it doesn't matter who's TC or other component some one might use... . the problems start when guys start uping the power and that is what causes things to break. If transmissions are used the way they were designed to operate at a given power level at a given time and then some one finds a way to up the power even more and something else breaks then it was the TC's fault. There is not one manufacturer out there that has not had a component fail because someone uped the power level. Could that be the reason why cryo-ed shafts are used by almost all aftermarket trans. product producers after a given Hp level.



I totally agree with you that the stock transmission is alot stronger than alot of these aftermarket parts producers want us to beleave, if they don't sell parts they don't survive. A good reason to ask questions, be as informed as possible, and do as much research as you possibly can on all the companies.



Ron



Ron

 

[MCummings]

Originally posted by Cooker

Obviously Merricks TC has lasted but the violence of shifting locked to locked damaged something else inside the transmission renendering it usless.



Has billet solved the problem of shifting locked to locked?



Then the next weakest link is found, and so on.

My TC is still running fine. I wonder how ahard it is to ruin a TC? I would dare say, with the proper line pressure, it would be darn near IMPOSSIBLE to ruin an aftermarket TC,, anybodies.



I'm launching at 2,500RPM, and it seems to be holding fine, Lock up at 3,500RPM in 2nd gear and I watch the tach drop about 1,300RPM, to about 2,200 or so. That is real hard on a clutch,, even on a manual truck



Billet solved my problem? Nope, it just moved it. I'm not going to be snapping a $90 OEM shaft anymore. I'll be slipping the $15. 00 2nd gear band. Instead of SNAP, I'll just get a slow RPM drop, which I do get now.



Next weak link at the track is the output shaft, or if you run stock line pressures (as this truck has experianced before) it is the 1st gear clutch packs that will slip, and literally weld together when building boost at the line.

About 25PSI, you lose the output shaft, and about 35PSI you'll losse the intermediate shaft.

The transmission companies are all doing a great job holding the power. It now depends on how the power is put down. On evendor wants you to lockit up as soon as you can, which shock laods the drivetrain alot. Another vendor wants to make very tight fluid coupling, and this in turn looses a couple % of HP, makes it harder to "light" a turbo at the track, and doesn't shock load the drivetrain during shifts.

I'm only familiar with two of the bigger vendors, and I've only watched the other uys. I do know one of the Best TC's made for sled pulling was made using a stock TC that was cut open, and late one night inside of a barn, with liberal use of a torch and welder, a couple guys made their own TC. IT's been a great success, but last I heard, they went to a commercial made TC.



Just My Rant,,

Merrick