Better RV Brands?

[KSams]

Grizzly and Harvey, Thanks so much for your insight and knowledge on campers. We are also activly looking at fifth wheels. The wife really likes the Cedar Creek, but also have been looking at Big Horn, Grand Junction, and Cameo. I will have the choice to retire at the end of the year and looking for something to stay in around 3 months at a time. Any input or advice welcomed by one and all.

 

[HBarlow]

KSams,

I'm sorry but you may not like my answers. You can't safely tow the real large fifth wheels with a Ram 2500.
We have had these discussions a hundred times. You would be spending your time wisely if you read hundreds of older TDR posts on the subject of towing weights and RV choices.

The facts remain the same, only the opinions of Ram 2500 owners differ. Your carrying capacity on the rear axle is limited to twice the weight carrying capacity of your two rear tires minus the weight of the truck, fuel, tools, and occupants. Actual kingpin weight of a loaded fifth wheel is always much greater than the manufacturer's published figures but is generally about 20% of GVWR on a trailer ready for travel. It can be greater with a forward mounted generator.

Cedar Creek is a Forest River brand trailer. I don't care for them and Grizzly's industry rating guidebook doesn't rate them very highly. I think the other brands you named are all fairly new and recent to the marketplace. Five years or less. I think the companies that make them, are individual units of parent corporation Thor Industries. They are fairly popular brands but not more than average ratings.

Your signature doesn't indicate where you live and you didn't state where you will travel. Three months would be a long time in the summer heat of AZ or winters in the central or nothern states. Insulation, windows, ac units, furnace size, plumbing protection, and build quality are all important in extreme weather.

 

[Grizzly]

KSams,



Cedar Creek is a 3 star rated 5th wheel. They are made by Forest River, who are not a high quality RV manufacture. So, I'm surprised that they are rated that high. I don't believe that you want to know what JD Gallant of RV Consumer Group has to say about Forest River.



Big Horn is rated 2. 5 stars. Not worth a discussion.



Grand Junction is rated 2 stars. Also not worth a discussion.



Cameo is manufactured by Carriage and is rated 4 stars. It's made for Snowbirding, which means one can live in it for 6 months out of the year. They have the insulation and quality to withstand a cold winter and a hot summer. The MSRP ranges from $81K to $84K. You can get a 4 star rated Snowbirding 5th wheel for much less from other manufactures. To tow even the smallest Cameo, which is 33', you'll need a truck heavier than a 2500. Here's what JD Gallant has to say about Carriage;



Built with aluminum framing on 16" centers, fiberglass skin, batt insulation, and a good interior wallboard, this fifth wheel has been able to maintain a reputation for trouble-free longevity. Of course, most of this has to do with the manufacturer's ability to produce a fifth wheel with excellent workmanship. I've inspected many and have found very few flaws.



george

 

[KSams]

Harvy, thanks for the reply. We live in Ohio and the idea would be to leave the cold and snow for warmer climates and then come back in the spring. I take no offence to your suggestions and opinions. I want this to be a safe venture for my family and the rest of the traveling public.



Grizzly, thanks for the info on the the brands i had mentioned. Some of the brands you have mentioned in previos posts as being rated higher i cant find in this area. We will be going to Florida at the end of the year for a couple of weeks so will look down there. Again thanks to both of you

 

[HBarlow]

For the snowbird RVing you described many ordinary good quality fifth wheels would give you satisfactory service.

Smaller Carriage, Artic Fox, and HitchHiker II fifth wheels would be good brands to consider. Jayco's are good also.

NuWa Industries NuWa Industries, Inc. manufacturer of HitchHiker trailers began a new program of selling new units at the factory and taking trades about two years ago. Their website lists a lot of used units for sale.

Their pricing strategy on new units is very slim, as good as a consumer can usually find anywhere. I haven't compared their used unit pricing strategy with Kelly Blue Book or NADA but assume it is similar.

The advantage of buying direct from NuWa is good honest people with old-fashioned mid-western values and an outstanding service department that inspects and repairs every unit before it is offered for sale. You might want to look at their inventory on the website.

 

[Grizzly]

Harvy, thanks for the reply. We live in Ohio and the idea would be to leave the cold and snow for warmer climates and then come back in the spring. I take no offence to your suggestions and opinions. I want this to be a safe venture for my family and the rest of the traveling public.



Grizzly, thanks for the info on the the brands i had mentioned. Some of the brands you have mentioned in previos posts as being rated higher i cant find in this area. We will be going to Florida at the end of the year for a couple of weeks so will look down there. Again thanks to both of you

KSams, On your quest to find the right trailer and stay within your budget, consider purchasing a copy of the RV Consumer Group. I paid about $150, which I believe is well worth the money. They also include a book on how to choose the right trailer and how to get the best price for it. Before the market fell on RV's, I could alway get 25% off of MSRP. I got better than that on my Arctic Fox. I don't know how much mark-up they have on these trailer because it varies from manufacture to manufacture. You can negotiate with some dealers, but not with all dealers. You have to be willing to travel to get the best deal. We got our best price from a dealer in Pinehurst, Idaho, which is about 1000 miles from Albuquerque, which was fine because we made a long vacation out of it and spent a few days with my brother in Grants Pass, Oregon.



There are some 4 star rated 5th wheels for Snowbirding that you can tow with your 2500 Ram. I personally feel better with my 3500 Ram DRW and our 5th wheel is only 27' long. With the slideouts open, it's more room than my wife and need.



Hope this helps, george

 

[KSams]

Thanks guys, I will look into getting the rv consumer group. This is such a great site with people with a wealth of knowledge. Thank you for your help and suggestions.

 

[Grizzly]

KSams.



Here a link to RV Consumer Group. You have to order it on line as they do not accept phone orders. It's $139 for towables.

click here



george

 

[KSams]

Thanks for the link. I now should be able to make a better informed decision.

 

[Gonzo 1066]

My opinion is that MOST RV's are garbage or near garbage. The latest round of manufacturers failuers may be a good thing. Be very cautious when shopping. Check FRAME, AXLE capacity, Sidewall construction. If there any Scotch locks used ANYWHERE on the unit RUN for the door. IMHO

 

[Grizzly]

My opinion is that MOST RV's are garbage or near garbage. The latest round of manufacturers failuers may be a good thing. Be very cautious when shopping. Check FRAME, AXLE capacity, Sidewall construction. If there any Scotch locks used ANYWHERE on the unit RUN for the door. IMHO

... or better yet, check them out on RV Consumer Guide. Unfortunately some good RV Manufacture also went out with the economic downturn.



There are good quality trailers out there, but like the old saying, you only get what you pay for.



george

 

[HBarlow]

My opinion is that MOST RV's are garbage or near garbage. The latest round of manufacturers failuers may be a good thing. Be very cautious when shopping. Check FRAME, AXLE capacity, Sidewall construction. If there any Scotch locks used ANYWHERE on the unit RUN for the door. IMHO

Gonzo,

I have owned travel trailers since the early '70s starting with entry level weekend type units and graduating to excellent quality durable full time fifth wheels.

I strongly disagree with your statement. The old adage "you get what you pay for applies. "

Some of thhe very best RV manufacturers, the ones who built most of the truly high quality full timer style all weather RVs were the ones forced out of business by the recession. They failed because their products were expensive and sold only to a limited market. Most of the RV manufacturers who survived are the mass producers of cheap light weight trailers that I wouldn't own if someone gave one to me.

Most Americans choose the cheap flimsy products like you described and then whine and complain about the poor quality.

The best trailers in the RV industry are Tetons, Travel Supremes, Newmars, and Alfas, all companies that are no longer manufacturing new ones. If I wanted a truly high quality unit for use as a full time RVer I would buy one of the brands I mentioned and tow it with an MDT.

 

[RustyJC]

The best trailers in the RV industry are Tetons, Travel Supremes, Newmars, and Alfas, all companies that are no longer manufacturing new ones.

Harvey,



I guess I'd quibble about the Alfas - the owner comments on the last few years of production weren't that favorable, but to each his/her own.



Newmar is apparently still keeping its toe in the 5th wheel market - see HERE



Rusty

 

[Grizzly]

Harvey,



I guess I'd quibble about the Alfas - the owner comments on the last few years of production weren't that favorable, but to each his/her own.



Newmar is apparently still keeping its toe in the 5th wheel market - see HERE



Rusty

Rusty, this is what JD Gallant of RV Consumer Group has to say about Newmar:



george







"Newmar fifth wheels and I have known each other for so long that when we met we both were just new kids on the block. I was chastised for climbing up those back ladders by salesman so many times that I thought my name was, "Hey, you!" Those were the good years when roofs were something you looked at when you wanted to see how an RV was really built. Bumps in the rubber were common with Newmar then, and the sealant was so sloppily applied that it looked like the workers were staggering from a tough night in Nappanee. Still, I thought Newmar made a pretty good trailer then, and I still think they're a lot better than just okay. The construction methods and materials have changed throughout the years, but the workmanship is still better than average. Other than the roof, I never found too much wrong with their fifth wheels except a flaw here and there. The reason I know the roofs were then, and, I think, still are a weak point, is that owners are quick to complain to me when I tout one as a good trailer and it starts to drip on their heads at the first rain. Otherwise, the Newmar fifth wheels use pretty much standard construction techniques (aluminum framing, fiberglass skins, and some lamination) with better than average workmanship. As I've been told more than once, "Newmar is consistent in everything but their roofs. " (They use primarily fiberglass and vinyl. ) Also, they're always doing something different with the suspension so be sure to crawl under any Newmar you're considering. You just might find me there".

 

[gtoli]

I would not buy a Keystone with any name label or any unit on a Lippert frame.

Well, it would appear that my Tango is built on a Lippert frame and it's a little late for me to change trailers.



Are there any problrm areas on the frame/suspension that I should keep an eye on?

 

[Bill Carlyle]

I agree with Rusty. Friends of mine have had Alfa trailers and motor homes and both were nothing but trouble. The motor home division closed and left them holding own with no warrenty.



Bill

 

[Gonzo 1066]

The RV industry seemed to have generally LOWERED the standards of build to meet consumer demand based ONLY on price. How many 6500# trailers have been built with 3500# axles. To only give 500# of load carrying capacity. I know that the hitch also carries some weight, but blown tires, bent axles and ruined bearings seem the norm on a lot of the average trailers. If your trailer is going to be used 3x a year for 500 miles almost anything will give good service. I use our RV 130+ nights a year and take lots of forrest service roads. I demand a higher standard than some. Sorry if I offend some , dont mean to just trying to get a point across.

 

[HBarlow]

Harvey,

I guess I'd quibble about the Alfas - the owner comments on the last few years of production weren't that favorable, but to each his/her own.

Newmar is apparently still keeping its toe in the 5th wheel market - see HERE

Rusty

Rusty,

Your opinion about Alfa quality control during their last several years of production is correct.

I pulled trailers for a small family-owned transport company in Fontana, CA that was the primary transporter for Alfa. (The transport company was so connected with Alfa that when Alfa suddenly shut the doors Alfa owed my old boss over $30k which he never collected)

I pulled a lot of Alfas including picking up a few and returning them to the factory for warranty repairs. There were lots of problems. Alfa's work force was almost entirely . . . shall I say, immigrants with questionable documentation?

The design and overall build quality was very high quality using excellent materials and very beautiful, plush interiors but lots of minor flaws showed up before they shut it down.

 

[HBarlow]

Rusty, this is what JD Gallant of RV Consumer Group has to say about Newmar:

george



"Newmar fifth wheels and I have known each other for so long that when we met we both were just new kids on the block. I was chastised for climbing up those back ladders by salesman so many times that I thought my name was, "Hey, you!" Those were the good years when roofs were something you looked at when you wanted to see how an RV was really built. Bumps in the rubber were common with Newmar then, and the sealant was so sloppily applied that it looked like the workers were staggering from a tough night in Nappanee. Still, I thought Newmar made a pretty good trailer then, and I still think they're a lot better than just okay. The construction methods and materials have changed throughout the years, but the workmanship is still better than average. Other than the roof, I never found too much wrong with their fifth wheels except a flaw here and there. The reason I know the roofs were then, and, I think, still are a weak point, is that owners are quick to complain to me when I tout one as a good trailer and it starts to drip on their heads at the first rain. Otherwise, the Newmar fifth wheels use pretty much standard construction techniques (aluminum framing, fiberglass skins, and some lamination) with better than average workmanship. As I've been told more than once, "Newmar is consistent in everything but their roofs. " (They use primarily fiberglass and vinyl. ) Also, they're always doing something different with the suspension so be sure to crawl under any Newmar you're considering. You just might find me there".

I forget that Newmar did restart building fifth wheels. They shut down for awhile and when they returned with apparently limited production numbers they used unfamiliar names. I suspect the new Newmar fifth wheels of the last two years are not the same trailers Newmar once built.

I didn't know about the roof problems.

 

[HBarlow]

Well, it would appear that my Tango is built on a Lippert frame and it's a little late for me to change trailers.

Are there any problrm areas on the frame/suspension that I should keep an eye on?

I don't have good news for you.

Lippert frames generally use smaller dimension steel frame members, lighter weight materials, and fewer frame crossmembers and braces than quality manufacturers. Some of the specific problems with Lippert frames I have read about include failed/broken welds, broken spring leaves, broken shock absorber mount brackets or welds, ends of axles breaking off at the spindle, and more. Lippert uses cheap running gear (perhaps ChiComm?) on lightweight frames with inferior welds. Lippert frames often have running gear that is marginal for the weight carried.

When I was shopping for a new fifth wheel in late '06 I spoke with Bill Stockard. I owned and loved a used Travel Supreme at the time but wanted a new or newer one and didn't want to tow the excessive weight of a Travel Supreme or pay the price of a new one.

Bill and his wife had owned two HitchHiker II fifth wheels earlier, in the '90s (I think), and he suggested I look at HitchHikers. Bill knew the product line and advised me to make sure I selected a model built on a Young's frame, not Lippert. HitchHikers had always been built on Young's frames. Young's is down the street from the HH plant in Chanute, KS.

When I did my homework I learned that NuWa (HitchHiker builder) was using Lippert frames on all HitchHiker IIs and some models of Discover America (mid grade) models in '07. NuWa continued to use nothing but top quality Young's frames under tehir top of the line Champagne models. I selected a DA model on a Young's frame and am very pleased with it.

NuWa continued to build some of their fifth wheels on Lippert frames for MY '07 and '08. I had the opportunity to look at both bare frames at Chanute several times. The Lippert frames looked less substantial by comparison and were already rusty when delivered before the trailer was even built. By comparison, the Young's frames were much more substantial looking and were powder coated white.

I have read of quite a few problems with Lippert framed HitchHikers on the NuWa owner's forum. Owners of other brands on Lippert frames have reported problems on TDR and other RVing websites.

NuWa or Lippert has repaired the problems on HitchHiker trailers but you can't repair a cheaply built frame to make it equal to the better ones. I think a few owners of HHs on Lippert frames have traded their nearly new trailers off already for HHs on Young's frames.