Bio diesel

[Tom Schuster]

Untill/unless they do, IMO 5% is not enough of a savings to bother with, and greater % could get you into expensive trouble.



I'm listening for counter-arguments and new developments, though.

Just a comment on "savings": I don't use biodiesel because it's cheaper. When the only biodiesel pump went in here in town 18 months ago, it started out pumping B20--which was about $0. 25 a gallon higher in cost than diesel. I used it in my '99 2500 and made the commitment to pay more because if no one used it, the suppliers could justify not selling it because no one would spend more for it. New anything--be it biodiesel or technology--is always going to cost more initially. SOMEBODY has to pay for it or it'll disappear from the marketplace. I could afford to do it, so I did.



After a few weeks, though, the supplier changed the pump to B5 in order to attract more people whose vehicle warranties did not cover using anything higher than B5. I understand the reasoning, although I was pretty bummed. My 2500 ran better on that B20 than anything else I ever put in it.



I am now using the B5 in my new MegaCab. The truck runs fabulously. I won't use anything higher until the truck is out of warranty or Dodge approves it, but that doesn't keep me from "wishing" I could.



BTW, it appears that Cummins is good with B20, even if Dodge won't warranty engines using it:



http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=112916&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=976041&highlight=



Janet (the Mrs. )

2007. 5 3500 MegaCab

 

[Wolfy]

Just a comment on "savings": I don't use biodiesel because it's cheaper. When the only biodiesel pump went in here in town 18 months ago, it started out pumping B20--which was about $0. 25 a gallon higher in cost than diesel. I used it in my '99 2500 and made the commitment to pay more because if no one used it, the suppliers could justify not selling it because no one would spend more for it. New anything--be it biodiesel or technology--is always going to cost more initially. SOMEBODY has to pay for it or it'll disappear from the marketplace. I could afford to do it, so I did.



After a few weeks, though, the supplier changed the pump to B5 in order to attract more people whose vehicle warranties did not cover using anything higher than B5. I understand the reasoning, although I was pretty bummed. My 2500 ran better on that B20 than anything else I ever put in it.



I am now using the B5 in my new MegaCab. The truck runs fabulously. I won't use anything higher until the truck is out of warranty or Dodge approves it, but that doesn't keep me from "wishing" I could.



BTW, it appears that Cummins is good with B20, even if Dodge won't warranty engines using it:



http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=112916&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=976041&highlight=



Janet (the Mrs. )

2007. 5 3500 MegaCab

Point well taken, Janet.



I didn't mean to ignore the many valid reasons to go-bio. I admire your reasoning and committment.



If/when assuredly safe-for-the-rig bio is widely available and warranty approved, I'm sure the confusion surrounding the use issue will diminish, and more of us will join you.



I support the idea that energy independence and environmental concerns warrant paying whatever costs are involved. The alternative is a dead end, for sure.

 

[PRout]

PRout,
A warranty-busting mistake could be very costly.

There is certainly market/social pressure to adapt these engines to better multi-fuel usage, ... so we have to hope the engineers will respond.

Agreed and well said. .

 

[Tom Schuster]

If/when assuredly safe-for-the-rig bio is widely available and warranty approved, I'm sure the confusion surrounding the use issue will diminish, and more of us will join you. )

The supplier of biodiesel here in Kalispell is CityService Valcon, which also supplies biodiesel to Spokane County for its county vehicles (and I think also for the vehicles in Glacier Park). So we have a fairly high level of assurance that what they are selling meets the standards it needs to meet. There is an outfit selling B99 in the county, but we can't tell if it's something he cooked up in his kitchen or is getting from a large supplier. I also know that there is a group here in Montana which bought a refinery near Billings and plans to offer Montana-made biodiesel sometime in the future.



Janet (the Mrs. )

2007. 5 3500 MegaCab

 

[JimB1]

Easy way to tell if a seller of Biodiesel is legit is go to National Biodiesel Board - www.biodiesel.org - www.nbb.org. They maintain a daily updated list. CityServiceValcon is listed. Also you can ask any seller naming their product as Biodiesel if they're approved by National Biodiesel Board. NBB maintains a national list. Easy to use website. 2 clicks and you're at the state list.

 

[mhenon]

Do you or anyone else have written science reports on what WVO or SVO does to any CTD?

There's plenty of science on SVO use in diesel engines. Try this site as a starter:

Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel: Journey to Forever



There's also this guy on the VW web-site:

WVO no more-My Tragic Greaser Story - TDIClub Forums



He admittedly made a lot of mistakes but it does show what could happen if you play with veggie oil.

Mike

 

[JFaughn]

Now after several posts & reading , a couple comments ,
The 1st replying to the science of WVO / SVO , the science of chemistry says that unprocessed vegi/animal oil can not be certified as fuel , so at that point any labs/real science has not been wasted .
Newer trucks & bio , if our so called leaders would have been leading us , instead of getting in bed with greed , they should have gotten bio going yrs ago , the adding emission equipment would be far less necessary [ bio is cleaner that dyno ] this leads to back up the idea of corruption/do the right thing , the engineers do not have control , they are told under what conditions to make some thing .
I haven't done the math , but I read that 41 sq. miles of AZ would produce all the diesel that the US consumes in a yr from algae based bio = 2 problems solved with one action [ imports of oil & emissions ] , now double the thought of corrupt leaders .
I''ve also read about most of the world has 40% or more diesels in passenger cars trucks , and that there leaders allow the diesels emission laws to be a little easier , for mutable reasons , bottom line they import less oil with the greater efficiency of diesels , x a 3rd time .
Now I'm not sure I covered all the points I intended , but I if stir the pot more , we'll have butter .

 

[Dishman Dodge]

Posts like Dishman's **** me off. A lot more info is needed before you can blame the bio... or at least a lot more info needs to be given. I've run a lot of bio in very high concentrations and it's not an issue. Maybe in that particlar case it was, but you can't bash the bio w/o telling us what the problem was.

It may well **** you off. #@$%! Be that as it may if your vehicle comes into a Chrysler Service Department with a blown engine the first thing Chrysler asks is "what is the fuel like". The dealer is not going to lie to cover you. If they replace the engine and the engine goes back to Chrysler and they find the biodiesel in excess of the 5% they will charge the dealer back for the engine. I do not think you would consider that fair to your local dealer that tried to help you, do you? As for the older diesels you probably will get away with higher percent but Wolfy is right the new 6. 7s are not ready for the higher %. I posted the info so you would know. If you choose to not heed the info then prepare to feel it in your pocket book. I am sorry if it ****'s you off but truth is what is.

Richard C. Bowman

Customer Service Manager

Dishman Dodge

 

[JFaughn]

Josh its can be a tough job working between a rock & and a hard place .

 

[Cattletrkr]

I understand that completely and whoeheartedly agree with voiding a warranty, if the fuel was the problem. Simply having B100 or 99. 5 or whatever present shouldn't be enough cause to void a warranty. You said the warranty was voided because the bio was there. Could you fill us in on what actually failed. If it turns out that the oil pump failed, would the warranty still be voided because of the bio? Maybe void for future problems, but if the bio didn't cause this one, it should be covered.


Sorry to come off a little strong, but I just don't see how bio could toast an engine.

 

[Wolfy]

Credit where due

Josh its can be a tough job working between a rock & and a hard place .

John,



I think it is worth noting that the last few posts from the Dishman team are from Richard Bowman, the Customer Service Manager.



He is the third member of the post-Adam crew to show up here in an attempt to share info, and IMO, this is admirable.



This sort of participation from busy dealership personnel is indicative of the service that has won them a group of serious customer-fans.



I continue to post these positive observations because I feel they deserve them, and I speak as both a satisfied customer and a TDR member.



The contrast between the Dishman effort and that encountered at many dealers shows why they have earned their customers' loyalty.



[Usual disclaimer, ... no affiliation beyond my purchase experience and that of continuing info-beneficiary. ]

 

[Wolfy]

I understand that completely and whoeheartedly agree with voiding a warranty, if the fuel was the problem. Simply having B100 or 99. 5 or whatever present shouldn't be enough cause to void a warranty. You said the warranty was voided because the bio was there. Could you fill us in on what actually failed. If it turns out that the oil pump failed, would the warranty still be voided because of the bio? Maybe void for future problems, but if the bio didn't cause this one, it should be covered.





Sorry to come off a little strong, but I just don't see how bio could toast an engine.

Cattletrkr,



Your point seems perfectly reasonable to me. I don't think that bio-use should give D/C a blanket "out" from any warranty coverage. If the bio was not the cause of the problem,... it shouldn't be justification for failure to fix it.



But they have more lawyers than most of us do, and if there is any legal basis, contract-wise, for them to claim successfully that we have failed to follow instructions, it may serve, in the world of eel-like manuevering, to free them from obligation.



That is the sort of fight that we should, but probably cannot afford to, win.



Personally, I would need serious encouragement before I decided to deliberately (and obviously) NOT-follow the owner's manual explicit instruction.

 

[Tom Schuster]

If the bio was not the cause of the problem,... it shouldn't be justification for failure to fix it.

I got this song-and-dance back in May when the injection pump in the '99 2500 failed. My husband replaced the original pump in November of 2006; the rebuilt pump failed at the end of May, and the company we purchased it from tried to weasel out of any obligation because they said I was using vegetable oil in it. I told them they were welcome to test the fuel, and if it turned out to be anything other than B5, I would discuss it with CityService Valcon. They caved and acknowledged that the electronics had failed, and gave us another pump.



I am sure that some of these companies see something that doesn't look like straight diesel in an engine part and they jump up and down from excitement because it gives them an "out. "



I also remember reading somewhere that back in the 20's or 30's, diesel engines routinely ran on vegetable oil. If someone has a source to back that up, I'd be curious to know.



Janet (the Mrs. )

2007. 5 3500 MegaCab

 

[JimB1]

The nub of this Bio issue is Biodiesel vs Biofuel. Biodiesel has ASTM 6751, National Biodiesel Board,NBB, EPA, Clean Air Acts, and full goverment recognition behind it. Biofuel (SVO & WVO) may work great in many applications BUT hasn't passed any of the rigorous test & acceptance as has Biodiesel. If when using Biodiesel, any warranty claims held against you can be strongly challenged and since NBB is a trade association representing a growth industry (growing at a phenominal rate) they no doubt would strongly weight in to back their product. Carry this arguement to vehicle manufacters as a first response if you're using Biodiesel.

 

[Dishman Dodge]

Thank you.

I don't pretend to have all the answers but, I do agree with you guys that biodiesel will be a thing of the future. The problem now is the outfits that are promoting at home do it yourself kits as being the real thing. It can gum up the injectors and cause all kinds of havoc in the engine and will eventually cause the engine to fail. We do not dissagree with you we just have to look at the reality of what is for now.

Take care and happy motoring. See you.

Richard C. Bowman

Customer Service Manager

Dishman Dodge

 

[BPINE]

Thank you.

I don't pretend to have all the answers but, I do agree with you guys that biodiesel will be a thing of the future. The problem now is the outfits that are promoting at home do it yourself kits as being the real thing. It can gum up the injectors and cause all kinds of havoc in the engine and will eventually cause the engine to fail. We do not dissagree with you we just have to look at the reality of what is for now.

Take care and happy motoring. See you.

Richard C. Bowman

Customer Service Manager

Dishman Dodge

Richard can you please tell us what happened to this engine. Sorry if I missed it but I can not fing the answer in this thread.

 

[JFaughn]

Josh or Dishman Dodge folks , do you have any documentation on the WVO/SVO [ waste vegi oil / straight vegi oil ] issues ?
I have been following the alt fuel issue for a long time , have found many studies & now use Bio-Diesel [ transesterfication processed = remove the tryglycerides ] , and will give my opinion when the issue comes up , of the different bio fuels , that being that the glycerin causes problems & can not pass certification as fuel .
I run into a lot of believers that do not want to accept that there are issues , I like to make decisions with facts , and I use links to studies , but I am also accumulating info on the repair side to show what happens long term .
So any info you may have to help for those that are still deciding what to do ?
Thanks John

 

[Dishman Dodge]

Richard can you please tell us what happened to this engine. Sorry if I missed it but I can not fing the answer in this thread.

I am sorry but I am unable to give you engine specifics as the work was halted by Chrysler and the customer towed the vehicle from our Service Dept. and we do not know what the outcome was. All we know is the engine would not run and it had vegetable oil in the tank and fuel system. The attorney for the customer made a demand for coverage and had to back down as the customer violated the terms of his warranty as stated in the owners manual.

As for information on WVO/SVO I do not have anything of substance but if we do find something will gladly pass it on.

Those of you that live in Washingon probably should read the chapter RCW 82. 36. It has some interesting items in the law. I also have a letter from the EPA to Greasecar Vegetable Fuel Systems, LLC located in MA. Any one that would like to see a copy can call me at 509-922-4179. That is my direct line and if I am not available leave your name and fax # or address and I will get a copy to you.

Happy motoring

Richard C. Bowman

Customer Service Manager

Dishman Dodge

 

[Dishman Dodge]

Wolfy,

Thanks for the clarification between me and Richard!

Talk to you soon,



-Josh



P. S. I am currently trying to find some clarification/information on this topic to further our discussion.

 

[Dishman Dodge]

2 short reads (kind of) that I would recommend to further our discussion would be as follows. they both are a good q & a regarding bio and svo, but also show generic implications with running. and i will further my search, as well...



Green Car Congress: Biodiesel or SVO?



Biodiesel



-Josh