Biodiesel SCAM

[hammersley]

Article in this Month's Light and Medium Truck Trade mag - page 7



Dear Editor:

I am amazed at the number of consumers who wrongly

I believe that using biodiesel or ethanol reduces the import of

Mideast oil and reduces energy dependence. In fact, the oppo-

. site is true. The fossil fuel to grow, harvest, transport and refine

the corn into ethanol and soybeans into biodiesel exceeds the

energy released in burning the fuel in a vehicle.

The definitive technical paper on the inefficiency of biofuels

from food crops by Cornell University and the University

of California-Berkeley authors confirms that ethanol uses 29%

more fossil fuel than gained in the vehicle, and biodiesel uses

27% more energy. Biofuels from food crops are neither green,

sustaining, clean or renewable. The energy waste is even much

worse with biofuels from biomass, such as forest products.

Biofuel from crops serves three masters: the 50% of net

income welfare subsidy to farmers; the federal subsidy to the

refiners; and the Big 3 [automakers] who can build more gas I

guzzlers using the [corporate average fuel economy] credits I

from E85-capable vehicles that, in fact, seldom use [85%

ethanol fuel]. We can't take money from the road-building

funds to subsidize inefficient biofuels and then expect to maintain

roads.

This must rank as one of the biggest frauds of consumers

perpetuated by the federal and state governments, farmers and

the Big 3. It delays efforts to reduce oil imports by conserva- I

tion and smaller vehicles, and conversion to energy and emission-

efficient diesel engines.

Sincerely,

JosephJ Neff

Retired Chief Engineer

Cummins Engine, Peterbilt Motors, Gillig Corp.

 

[Bernie]

I don't disagree, but ...

If you are converting WASTE cooking oil, you (yourself) will be slightly less dependant on foreign oil. If that product was waste and was not going to be used, and you give it a use, good for you.



Yes, there is not enough corn and soybeans in the world to support all of our driving. My hat is off to those who do use "waste" to make their little corner of the world a little greener and a little less dependant on foreign oil.



When my warranty is up, I'll be looking in to it.

 

[Boondocker]

Well there's three sides to every story. I've taken quite an interest in BioDiesel this past year, hence a lot of studying - book reading & internet research. I cannot possibly come to the conclusion that BioDiesel is being promoted ("perpetuated") by farming interests, federal or state governments, and certainly not by any automakers doing big business in the U. S. By the same token, I don't believe all the hype touting the environmentalism and economics reasons for BioDiesel.



Ethanol may be a different story than BioDiesel, and I have not paid enough attention to that subject to even have an opinion. At least for BioDiesel, there are two clear camps - commercial production and homemade production. Homebrew BioDiesel is a very grassroots, alternative type culture. The homebrewers use waste vegetable oil for cost reasons because their labor is not counted in the total cost. For commercial production, it is far too inefficient to use waste oil as a base product from which to produce a uniformly high quality fuel.



It is very clear to me that homebrewed BioDiesel is made for all the right reasons and suffers none of the drawbacks that Mr. Neff describes. Alas, we are talking about a very small but passionate niche market, barely a small drop in the big bucket of this nation's fuel requirement. Does that mean commercial BioDiesel producers are the dupes Mr. Neff proclaims? Hardly. At the worst, they're not helping much. At best, they provide an alternative fuel and promote the concept and public realization and acceptance that alternative fuels are a step in the right direction.



Neil

Now where did I put my dilithium crystals for the warp drive?

 

[SEmerson]

If you use petrol to farm the organtic product, transport, and process the biodiesel or ethanol maybe it does take more energy then petrol. BUT If all of those process's use ethanol or biodiesel the it is a mute point. Because at the time there is no need for any crued oil for fuel.

 

[cj hall]

Fuel

Hello to all



Mr J is very right if you take the time to make bio d or ethanol it does take more than it makes thiis is sad but true,what makes the best fuel is svo bar none but this takes a lot of fuel to grow/crush/store/filter/heat /use there is no silver lining in any of the new fuels the main problem is that if you want to drive your car or truck is going to take fuel.



I Understand this you understand this but there are people out there that think we can just switch the key off and all the problems will go away



the only reason I say svo is the best there is little or no refining in that type of fuel all farmer's should be making there own fuel if not I dont feel to sorry for them.

For those that are wating for someone to tell you its ok to burn this stuff why are you letting them get a hold of something that you might be able to do yourself.



I will use wvo as long as I can get it if it voids my warranty then thats my fault, I will take my chances.



Why is the USA so stuck on making biodiesel when you can just burn vegetable oil just as it is yes I have read the studys that says it cant be done but it does work both my truck's run veg oil blends yes this is a little different than svo but its a lot easer than making biodiesel and there is no waste



cj hall

 

[roverhybrids]

What will make the difference in the use of alternative vegetable oil based fuels is when they grow specific crops for this use. Corn and Soybeans are not high yeilding crops for SVO.

 

[RustyJC]

If you use petrol to farm the organtic product, transport, and process the biodiesel or ethanol maybe it does take more energy then petrol. BUT If all of those process's use ethanol or biodiesel the it is a mute point. Because at the time there is no need for any crued oil for fuel.

Not if it takes 1. 2 gallons of biodiesel for every 1. 0 gallon produced. It's all in the energy balance - how many BTUs must be input for every million BTUs of output? That should be a fairly straightforward calculation, but anyone with an agenda can spin the numbers any way they want depending upon the assumptions they make regarding input energy requirements.



Rusty

 

[AWray]

"That should be a fairly straightforward calculation, but anyone with an agenda can spin the numbers any way they want depending upon the assumptions they make regarding input energy requirements. " Rusty



Rusty is correct regarding the spin. The authors from Cornell and Cal-Berkeley consider every petroleum-related aspect that is consumed in preparing the soil, producing the crop and processing the given crop into its bio fuel. That same calculation is difficult to do with crude oil. It is unlikely that anything will eliminate our use of crude oil, but we can reduce our appetite.

 

[Mr. C]

Spin the numbers any way you want but my cost is still less than $. 80 per gallon on my boidiesel even with the increased cost of methanol lately. I don't care what it cost to produce the veg oil or ship it, it has served its purpose when I recieve it it has been fully depreciated. I am only concerned with my net costs in this endever, as I see it it is an entirely new life for this waste product and previous costs are not part of the picture.

I can't help but wonder how much oil company stock the author owns?

Man am I cynical or what.

 

[Loghead]

http://www.farmshow.com/issues/30/04/300403.asp



I realize that the article I've linked (from elsewhere on this forum) provides anecdotal evidence only, but it does contradict what Mr Neff is saying.



The farmer in the article not only uses his own biodiesel to make more biodiesel, he also is using the fuel for other uses on his farm and over the road. That in itself seems to indicate that he's not using 127 gallons to produce 100.

 

[cj hall]

fuel maker

hello loghead



the farmer is not making biodiesel he is blending fuel

all farmers should be doing this



biodiesel is a veg oil that has been refined (this keeps the big oil co happy)svo is using it as it is

blending is mixing waste veg oil/ new veg oil with any petrol to thin it then using it as a fuel (some people say this wont work) but dont let them know it does... .



you can call it biofuel just not biodiesel.



thanks

cj hall

 

[Loghead]

Cj. .

whatever it's called; in your opinion, is the fuel component (?) that the farmer is making cost effective, in terms of fuel burned vs. fuel produced?

Didn't the farmer say that he planned to increase his output by 3X ? It just seems like if the proposition is a loser (materially or financially) that the farmer would have figured that out at this point.



Are all of the bio-diesel plants (using virgin oil) that are beginning to emerge going to operate at this "material" deficit that Mr. Neff is referring to?

 

[cj hall]

fuel cost

hello

yes i think it is as long as big oil/corp farms /govt stays away and only if it is used with the min of labor it can. if i had some extra money i would do the same.



and he should be making his own power and heating his house and shop with it this works but some people need to have the epa/govt tell them before they try, NOT ME



the refining of crude oil is the money maker for the oil companys the buy products of crude oil are worth far more than just the crude oil same goes for the veg oil but it needs to be refined this is no better than what we have now. the only thing about veg oil is that it will work with out refining.

if you think that the biodiesel is the product and the glyercine is the waste product your dead wrong its the other way around,The reson we have refinerys is we need a product that would light up our homes and not soot up the walls we a long time ago used whale fat for fuel we almost killed them off then we used coal oil to much soot then we found out that the black stuff that runs out of the ground in some states would work ok but it needs to be refined in to kerocine all the other stuff was a waste product and yes we poured in off on to the ground and here we are today looking for the next fuel biodiesel is the waste product. if we let the biodiesel makers become the only way of fueling we as americans might as will give up and turn in the keys of our trucks in fuel will be so high none of us will be able to drive.



if fuel #2 is sold at any thing higher than 3. 259 per gallon and it has

and i can go to the store and get veg oil for 14. 99 per 35 lb carboy thats 4. 6 gallons thats 3. 2586 per gallon its the same price but if you grow your own then it's even better. this is the retail side of it farmers will be the wholesale side. cheeper right?



exxon/cenex/conoco/ etc are all middle men in the oil game dont let ADM/CARGILL/ BIG CORPRATE FARMS do the same to us.

IF YOU DONT LIKE THE WAY THINGS ARE GET OUT AND CHANGE THE WAY YOU DO THINGS

I for one have tryed the veg oil it works, case closed !!!

if I cared about the damage I might be doing to my engine and I said might I would not start it in fact I would not buy one its about 500 parts working to wear it self out,,not a smart buy.



if you make your own fuel out of used veg oil then you really save the money my fuel costs is 56 cents per gallon yes there is other costs in there that I dont count but its better than working your tail off just to fill up your truck.



this is my 6 cents worth if you want the whole amount its going to cost more



thanks

cj hall

 

[MMcCallie]

What if solar energy was used to heat oil, possibly to power electric motors? What if wind generators or water mills were used to mix and crush seeds?

Recycling waste oils and using renewable fuel sources from all sorts of places on this earth is more of a need for our ecosphere than our wallets.



Diesel engines have the most potential and flexibility for healthier fuel consumption. Not to mention diesels are longer lasting, more powerful, and more efficient than gas engines. We need to focus our creativity to learn how to make positive possibilities realities.

 

[cj hall]

fuel

ok the first thing is all of that can be done solar,wind,biofuels, burning waste oil, you name it it can be done the problem money or lack of it.



big oil likes it just the way it is , govt likes the revenue we have to spend to just to get to work,then they get more when we get done working, and a little bit more on the drive home ,make a phone call ,,bam more revenue i could go on but there is no need we all know this .



if we look for big oil or the govt to help us we will be in the same shape in 10 /20/30/40 years from now we need to try all things that might work thats what we do as americans we invent stuff thats are job.



if you dont think this is right go get a news paper from the 1970's this is not the first time its happend it wont be the last



cj hall

 

[Loghead]

So you seem to be cynical where Mr Neff's comments are concerned, CJ; or are you somewhat in agreement with him when it comes to biofuel (or actual bio-diesel) from virgin oil on a mass scale?

 

[jcarey]

I'd have to see some factual, documented information before I would accept/believe Mr Neff. The article posted does no more than show Mr Neff's opinions.



For, myself, and my opinions, I find it hard to believe that the overall process (extracting of the oil from the ground, the delivery of the oil to a port, the loading of the oil onto ships, intercontinental transport, unloading, transporting to a refinery, and refining) would consume less energy and generates less pollution than the bio-diesel lifecycle, or coal-to-gas process, especially if the bio-diesel refineries were built near the source of oil.



I omit the expense/pollution involved in transporting the final products to retailers because it should be the same/very similar for both.



Also, the above oil scenario does not take into account the cost, both financially and environmentally of oil/gas exploration.



Jim

 

[cj hall]

bio fuel

hello

the biofuel some thing that does not need a lot of refining thats what i think makes the most sence cost wise.



making biodiesel is ok the source of oil will be new so the cost will be higher the labor if the refinerys take over that job will cost to much therefore the savings are gone . this is no better than what we have right now.



then the big oil co will start importing new soy/rape/sun/saf/ect oil from other countrys it will be cheaper back to the same old, same old ,Dont you see this happing I do.



we as a country cant seem to do anything we need other countrys to make the products we need my dodge pickup was made in mexico yes most of the engine parts came from usa but there are a lot of parts made in other parts of the world in that truck.



if you want to make your own biodiesel then make it its a great product if you want blend the oil with other fuels then go for it this is what i do and to me it makes the most sence but to take oil seed from a farmer , have another co make it in to oil , refine it at another,ship that to a bulk plant,to the filling station then to your tank . its the same old same old waste of time and money when we could go and get oil from the farmers and put in in the tank of your can and drive home that sounds like a good plan to me. or even buy it at a store where you get food at this is what we need to do not fill the pockets of big oil /big farms that just want a piece of the pie. we do not need to refine a product that will work just fine as it is.



if it's not broke, dont fix it !!!

the big oil way of doing us is broke, let's fix it !!!!!



cj hall

 

[JFaughn]

I did not notice in the other post , but the oil that comes from making soy meal was not getting used enough when our state university did a study [ the prossesers of soy meal quit taking in soy beans becouse there oil tanks were full and could no longer prosses the soy beans into meal ] .
My point being that the soy beans were being grown anyway so that cost is not part of the fuel .
Then what about the cost of war & terroism .
It seems most never include those costs of petro .
If there were no oil in the middle east we would not have been there the last ? 95 yrs. and they have there holy war with out us , or would they if we weren't there ?

 

[tgordon]

I have seen studies saying that the production of ethanal and biodiesel have a net + and - energy impact, even to the point where they claimed we should be drawing the liquifying coal through some fancy process and burning that in our diesels. but there are two points I wounder about. 1. what is the net energy gain from the transportation/processing of petroleum based fuels. 2. If I recal history correctly Rudolph operated his diesel on peanut oil, and the only reason people switched to petroleum based was because big oil found an outlet for a waste product of theirs. One more thought, why is it that not to long after everyone began talking about switching to alternative energy, and/or doing it the prices of petrolium all of a sudden dropped??????? Call it a conspiracy theory if you want, but I saw conventional diesel at over $3. 25, and at the same station I bought B99 for under $3. 00.