Biodiesel SCAM

[cj hall]

fuel

hello all



the cost of veg oil is based on what the co paid the farmer but the price the farmer got for his crop is based on not what it cost him to grow it its based on the market price of the crop. this is wrong the farmer should get a fair price for the crop or the oil from his crop if the farmer plants to much crop the govt will step in and pay him not to farm his land we have a lot of wheat farms not planted in montana



the price of crude oil is the same when oil was trading for 70 + dollars a barrel the price of crude oil in montana wes only getting 35 per barrel (the oil companys said it was a pipe line issue there was not room to transport to the refinerys in the state that it gets refined in ) there are four refinerys in montana 3 in billings and one in greatfalls mt . we dont refine the oil thas in montana we refine the oil from canada and send it out to other states and we use some of it here this is so more people can get a little money from making it travel more.



the same goes for milk and butter and a lot of other products.



so the price of veg oil is a factor of the biodiesel product but has nothing to do with the farmer its based on market price just like oil



the war issue I wont go there dont even ask!



as far as the holy war they have been trying to kill each other for over 3000 years we have been a country for 230 years !!!! think we dont play much of a factor in this .



i have seen studys one say it makes more than it takes other say it takes more than it makes i dont know what it takes to make it.



as far as the price goes could it be bushes buddys have droped the price for him so he gets something then after up it goes ????? if the outcome is what he wanted or could be just the oil companys being nice.

you see i dont care i have my oil i get it for free and it only cost me about 56 cents per gallon to make and sometime yes i have too buy gas and kero and ps diesel kleen and that other stuff i put in it but 87%of my fuel is free.



i think in the next two or three years the farmers will be growing there own oil crops and selling the oil in farm run co-ops then the price will be what the farmer needs to get to run his or her farm for the next year.



cj hall

 

[GIT-R-DONE]

ok the first thing is all of that can be done solar,wind,biofuels, burning waste oil, you name it it can be done the problem money or lack of it.



big oil likes it just the way it is , govt likes the revenue we have to spend to just to get to work,then they get more when we get done working, and a little bit more on the drive home ,make a phone call ,,bam more revenue i could go on but there is no need we all know this .



if we look for big oil or the govt to help us we will be in the same shape in 10 /20/30/40 years from now we need to try all things that might work thats what we do as americans we invent stuff thats are job.







cj hall

Exactly why things wont change. Big oil = $$ .



So, how do we make fuel to run the country without the Govt getting there fingers dirty and yet keep the oil companies out of it as well?

 

[tgordon]

GRD, I second that one, but good luck. Unless you sell it as non food grade vegy oil. The local dist. /retailer was one of the first in the country to sell it at a pump that I am aware of, when they wanted to start with the B99 the IRS said they didn't know how to handle the taxes because they considered it vegy oil. The retailer finally told them this is how it will be. CJ I would like to see your setup, and discover how much is truly involved in this process. I know several local farmers who have bought into the big co-ops to produce it and they pay based on bushels of grain that yeild very low levels of oil(they grow soybeans, rather than something like sunflowers that yeild over twice the oil per acre) rather than amount of oil in the grain. After my wife is done with her school we will start farming and I am looking at growing sunflowers to squeeze oil out of to produce my own fuel.

 

[cj hall]

tgordon

my set up is in post dse in trucks 04-05 ctd it's down about two from this one and then its on page ten or eleven of that post its only the heating and mixing part there would be a storage for the seeds seed crusher and storage tanks for the oil and filters for filtering the oil mixing units and so on this could be in a barn or trailer to make it easy to move it from farm to farm.



as far as crushing the seed for oil my thoughts are canola seed for the oil then the mash left over can be used for cattle feed this would get two products out of one crop maybe sunflower is the same way.



with this you would be making your own fuel and then you could sell the oil you dont need for a bettter price than just selling the seed crop.



this is one of my thoughts i have a few more but this one makes the most of what need to be done



cj hall

 

[tgordon]

we won't go into details of crushing seed other than my wife wants to have cattle when she gets done with school(we won't have money to do this till then) so no problem gettin grid of the "pulp". I am more curious about the actual chemical processing of the fuel. I passed chem, but not by much :-laf Every time I get a new idea and run it by my wife she simply tells me I better run some numbers before I get to spend happy. PM/e-mail me and I will go into the details for you now that we hijacked this thread Is there anyone near MI that is doing this that I could apprentice and learn how to do it?

 

[cj hall]

Fuel

hello

I sent you a email .

hope to talk soon.



cj hall

 

[DBond]

Article in this Month's Light and Medium Truck Trade mag - page 7



Dear Editor:

I am amazed at the number of consumers who wrongly

I believe that using biodiesel or ethanol reduces the import of

Mideast oil and reduces energy dependence. In fact, the oppo-

. site is true. The fossil fuel to grow, harvest, transport and refine

the corn into ethanol and soybeans into biodiesel exceeds the

energy released in burning the fuel in a vehicle.

The definitive technical paper on the inefficiency of biofuels

from food crops by Cornell University and the University

of California-Berkeley authors confirms that ethanol uses 29%

more fossil fuel than gained in the vehicle, and biodiesel uses

27% more energy. ...



Sincerely,

JosephJ Neff

Retired Chief Engineer

Cummins Engine, Peterbilt Motors, Gillig Corp.

He appears to be getting his information from the infamous

Pimentel and Patzek Paper. The conclusions from these 2 (consultants to big oil) is very different than many other major studies.



http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/pressreleases/gen/20050721_pimentel_response.pdf



Some of the issues with the Pimentel and Patzek Paper is they have only 1. 5 pages discussing biodiesel, (vs 298 pages in a major government study), use 15 year old farming info when 3 year info is available...



Sure there are issues, corn and soy beans aren't the best crops for biofuels, that will improve. Yes, the EPA rules on E85 flexfuel are bad.



Most studies show positive energy gains from Biodiesel and ethanol. Yes, ethanol was probably a net energy loser decades ago when it started, but both farming and alcohol production have become much more effiecent over time. Even if it wasn't a positive energy balance, because much of the energy input is domestic coal, oil imports are reduced.

Keep in mind that the petro fuels DO have a negative energy balance, it takes energy to pump, transport, refine the petro so they are only around 80-85%. And that's for conventional crude, if you are talking about Canadian tar sands or coal to liquids, it takes much more energy to produce. So future fossil sources will have lower energy balances, while bio fuels will continue to increase there energy balance as crops and processes for this young technology develope.

 

[cj hall]

biodiesel

Hello to All

Its the same old thing,(IF IT COSTS ME MORE I WILL NOT USE IT)

just keep it up ,using the same fuel and when it costs you 200. 00 or more to fill up your truck then what, look for the big oil /govt/state govt for help.



what need's to be done is to cut the middle man out of the supply chain !!!!!

HELLO , if it needs to be REFINED, thats the middle man,whos making billions refining oil ????????? biodiesel , ethanol any type of fuel that has to be refined is not what we need... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .....



if you dont think the price of fuel and the govt dont have any thing to do with each other tell me why after the polls closed on the 7 of nov the price of diesel went up 10 cents then another 5 cents the next day when the price of crude was falling????? buy the way it's going up and thats just the way it is...



SVO,WVO, ANY TYPE OF OIL works making your own fuel by blending or heating the oil up or making biodiesel for your self works, dont complain and cry about it just do it. brake the supply chain and try it .



cj hall

 

[MHagen]

First of all I think the #s on the first post are greatly exagerated. Second keep in mind that after Biodiesel is made their are byproducts that are sold for soap and animal food.



My dad is a fairly large farmer and produces 60% of his own fuel by crushing Soybeans. He plans to increase this # next year. Runnin bio in the winter is limited so he will never be able go 100%. He runs B100 in the bobcat cause it runs inside of a building a lot and Boi smells way better than #2. Another advantage for him is the crushed beans are still fed to the cows, which is actually prefered. If you feed whole beans to the cows they dont get as much nutrition from it cause they poop out quite a bit of whole bean. He is comming up with more bean than he can use so he sells it to other farmers for more than he can get for whole bean and he gets the soy. He got the idea from another farmer so he is not the only one. The more the word gets around, the more of this we will see. To say this does not help the american farmer is rediculus. They just opened a ethenol plant right next to my dads farm. Its closer than the 2 hour run he used to make and they pay better.



I buy my biodiesel from a farmers Coop and they said that the new trend is to run strong bio blends in their farm equiptment. I think its pretty clear why. It keeps the money in the local grain market is the #1 reason.



Another thing to keep in mind is that the more bio that is made the better/more efficient we will get at making it. Somebody somewhere will find a more efficent way to make it, its just a matter of time.



Last but certainly not least, I run Bio because my truck runs smoother, quieter, it has better lubricant, and doesnt stink as bad as #2. In my opinion it is a better fuel.



Mike

 

[DFerverda]

CJ you are right on the money , in my book. I use WVO and the cost is will under a buck a gallon, with 70-75 % less greenhouse emissions, and smells a lot better then pd.



Thought you guys would like this , it is from legal's homepage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Diesel

Enjoy. .

Dirk

 

[cj hall]

Hello to all

I Should have said that I run blend fuel 85% waste veg oil and 15% petrol fuel

I am trying to run this all year long with the aid of heated fuel tank and heated fuel lines.



Mhagen, what part of the country are you in, I think if you heat the fuel tank and the fuel lines you could run bio all year long. If you could send some pictures of the cusher that your father uses and what kind of prosess he is using that would be great. also if you want I am sure you could sell the oil to some people making there own biodiesel. if your close to me I will buy some.



Dferverda, thats great on the wvo what kind of problems have you had running that I have posted all that I have been through under the thread (dse in truck 04/05 ctd)



It's great to see people trying to do some thing about this madness.



to all the one's that are trying, keep up the great work to the one's that are not ask yourself what are you going to tell your grand kids when its all gone??? or should we buy food or fuel ???



cj hall

-- email address removed --

 

[obert]

He runs B100 in the bobcat

Bobcat Company still says thats a no-no!! I keep trying to tell our waranty guy and Dist. Service Mgr that our cutomers ARE and have long been running bio, the field testing is done, they just need to get their head out of, well..... #@$%!



There is a nice rebuttal to Mr. Neffs letter in the November L&MT, bottom of pg 8.

 

[MHagen]

Hello to all

I Should have said that I run blend fuel 85% waste veg oil and 15% petrol fuel

I am trying to run this all year long with the aid of heated fuel tank and heated fuel lines.



Mhagen, what part of the country are you in, I think if you heat the fuel tank and the fuel lines you could run bio all year long. If you could send some pictures of the cusher that your father uses and what kind of prosess he is using that would be great. also if you want I am sure you could sell the oil to some people making there own biodiesel. if your close to me I will buy some.



Dferverda, thats great on the wvo what kind of problems have you had running that I have posted all that I have been through under the thread (dse in truck 04/05 ctd)



It's great to see people trying to do some thing about this madness.



to all the one's that are trying, keep up the great work to the one's that are not ask yourself what are you going to tell your grand kids when its all gone??? or should we buy food or fuel ???



cj hall

-- email address removed --

I live near St paul Mn. My dad is a few hours away so pics may take a while. i probabally wont get up there till christmas. He has 2 giant extruders. Not sure what model they are. As for selling fuel he burns everything he makes. He's into selling Corn, beans, and milk.



I do have a fass fuel pump with coolant line hookups. I really should try and hook this up. Am I right to assume that I would hook that up to the return from the heater core? I have a 100 gallon tank in the box. I keep B99 in that and drain as needed to keep a blend in the truck tank based on the weather.



Mike

 

[cj hall]

fuel

Hello Mike



Yes thats where mine is hooked up from the engine head to the fass pump back to the heater core then to the engine block thats the way mine is hooked for now. Will be hooking it up a little different as soon as I get all the other stuff installed.

If you need to heat the 100 gallon bio tank I would use some thing like this

http://www.arctic-fox.com/sitepages/pid50.php



The temp was 0 degs and my fuel was at 12 degs must be picking up heat off the engine block it started great and is running just fine temp of fuel is running 54 degs after heating up engine to temp



hooking up the heating to the fass pump is a must (I think) if you run bio fuel of any sort you are colder than us most of the time billings montana can get cold but not like what you get.



hope this helps

good luck



cj hall

-- email address removed --

 

[DFerverda]

No problems ,but i only run biodiesel. No svo or dse,just dont care for the mix.

You just have to watch and dont get caught with a heavy blend of bd when the temp drops. I usually run b60 with D2, or K1 when it gets real cold.

Dirk

 

[DonS]

or should we buy food or fuel ???

Should we grow food or fuel?



We don't currently have enough land planted in the United States to grow enough corn, rape, or soy to replace our current fuel demands with bio - and that's even if we no longer ate corn (or wheat, rice, barley, or any other crops that require land).



From http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html :

• Current biodiesel equivalent use, to replace gasoline and #2 petro diesel: 141 billion gallons / year
  
• Acres of land in the US used for growing crops (including rangeland and pastures for feed animals): 1. 030 billion
  
• Total acres of land in the US: 2. 3 billion

From http://www.cogeneration.net/rapeseed_biodiesel.htm :

• Gallons of biodiesel per acre of rapeseed: 130

From calculator:

• Acres of land needed to replace gasoline and diesel with rapeseed-based biodiesel: 1. 084 billion

Combined with the existing 1. 030 billion acres that we currently use for growing food, we'd need 2. 1 billion acres of land for food and fuel, or 91% of our total space. That assumes we can find another 1. 084 billion acres that are suitable for growing rapeseed. Good luck.



Algae, however... .

 

[DJW]

Regardless of any calculations, the simple fact of the matter is, according to the best minds on the subject,-- using accepted farming practices of today, it takes 1 1/3 BTUs to produce 1 BTU of product, it's a simple matter of fact of Diminishing Returns, if the agricultural products can be used in series say cooking oil, heat from the cooking scorce, waste heat to heat accomodation, and so forth on down the line maybe, one could achive a one to one ratio or even improve on it. Cheap oil has stunted scientific research over the years.

 

[DBond]

Should we grow food or fuel?

...

Algae, however... .

I believe I agree with what you say, but I think some clarification would be helpful. Yes, it would take lots of farm land to grow bio fuel IF we used the same crops and methods we are using today, replaced 100% of the petro fuels we use, and drive the same vehicles... BUT we can develop better fuel crops (we are just using what we happen to have) Improve farming and processing methods, (Some ethanol plants are now separating out corn oil at and making BD with that. The oil won't ferment into ethanol so this just adds more bio fuel from the same crop), and use more effiecent transportation. You mention algae, and it is fuel specific crops like this that could dramatically expand bio fuels with no impact on food crops.



It's not a food or fuel issue. Most of the corn and soy grown is used for animal feed. A byproduct of making ethanol and biodiesel is, animal feed. Soybeans have had a higher demand for the meal than the oil, so turning oil into fuel balances that out.

 

[DBond]

Regardless of any calculations, the simple fact of the matter is, according to the best minds on the subject,-- using accepted farming practices of today, it takes 1 1/3 BTUs to produce 1 BTU of product...

Please give references to your source of this information.

Whose mind? What fuel? ...

 

[DBond]

There is a nice rebuttal to Mr. Neffs letter in the November L&MT, bottom of pg 8.

If there is any way you could post that, I would like to read it.