Biodiesel SCAM

[Champane Flight]

Gasoline in diesel...

It only takes one gallon of gasoline in one thousand to lower the flashpoint of diesel to atmospheric, which in turn will detonate in a diesel much quicker and faster than diesel, therefore causing detonation, scoring of pumps, injector wear from lack of lubrication, and increased temps, which could cause premature turbo failure. Why anyone would subject a peice of equipment to this is beyond me, as #1 diesel has the lubricity and pourpoint to go well beyond what is needed in any case.



DJW, oil now is worthwhile to look for. There is no shortage of oil, there is a shortage of cheap oil... .



I ask you to look (if you can read that is) at the sites I gave you all on my last post.



When the oil companys get the subsidies the farmers get, I will start to bellyache.

 

[tgordon]

100+ gal diesel in front of radiator and I think it was about 5 gal. of gas. The worst is the tiny (relative) steel fuel line runs to the bottum and side of the radiator, I can remember getting cought off gaurd on the first cold snap of the winter and filling the portable air tank up, taking wrenchs out to the field and every time the tracto stalled pulling open the fuel line, blowing air towards the tank to get the gelled fuel out of the line, starting the tractor back up, runing for how ever long you might get and doing it all over again until we got to where we could add some so it would not gel. Ahhh, the "good" old days. Have not done it in a while, the cows are gone and the tractor does not do much anymore in the winter. Yes the theory I was told was to run a diesel like you stole it!

 

[obert]

Two big cylinders. Had to be heated with blow torches before they would start then hand cranked. Had to be a strong man. When you see things that fascinate you it is easy to remember, even if you are a kid.

There is a 100hp fairbanks in Eaton, OH like that, and a 50hp single cyl. owned by Tri-state gas engine assn at their show on Jay Co. , IN fairgrounds (3rd week of august, i think). They run on #2 today, in their time (installed in factories) they fired on most any light oil you could pour in the tank.



Funny, with all the fancy new technology and argument over testing and what fuel will work in what engine, and so on done today, about 70 (and more) years ago there was a tractor company that built an engine, carburated and sparked BTW, that ran on anything burnable. "Gauranteed on all fuels", or some thing like that, a decal reads. With a "manual start", things like engine oil werent the best for starting, and the tractor and engine is rather crude (duh... its old as hell), but I like the fact that you just pour in whatever happens to be laying around that might burn.



The diesel needs to get back to its roots.

 

[tgordon]

Who needs susidys when you have the govenment making the laws to limit competition?

 

[tgordon]

Obert, I know JD A's that will operate on used engine oil after warmed up. But we all know that would not be good enough for mr champane unless it was tested, proven,and met all the oem specs. They do mix some palm into the commercially made bio diesels because of the molecular properties it brings to the final product, this does vary by manufacturer.



Champane, if that is so why is it in 10,000 hrs the most we ahve done to this tractor is an exhaust manafold and gaskets. No injetion pump, injector, turbo, lift pump work or other problems?

 

[obert]

gas in a diesel?

You havnt told us how much gas you plan on puttin' in that TD9 diesel crawler! :-laf :-laf Youl have lots of fun with that... .

 

[Champane Flight]

If you tore it down...

Obert, I know JD A's that will operate on used engine oil after warmed up. But we all know that would not be good enough for mr champane unless it was tested, proven,and met all the oem specs. They do mix some palm into the commercially made bio diesels because of the molecular properties it brings to the final product, this does vary by manufacturer.



Champane, if that is so why is it in 10,000 hrs the most we ahve done to this tractor is an exhaust manafold and gaskets. No injetion pump, injector, turbo, lift pump work or other problems?

When you tear this engine down let me know what damage you have. The old Deeres were built to handle about anything, you can bet a new rig wouldn't handle it. But, 10,000 hours is 416 days, for a diesel that is relativly low use. We have several Nordberg industrial engines with over 200,000 hours.

I know of several diesel to NG/propane conversions with the old deeres, you would have to change timing quite a bit, but they started easier.



I had a friend with a old multi-fuel deuce and a half, it would run on anything also, but, it would not run good..... Had another guy put some gas in his JD diesel tractor the other day, hit the glow plugs, and BOOM, the head came right off the block... . Tried to come back on us, JD dealer came in with a sample of fuel, we tested it, smelled of gasoline, flash atmospheric, no garrantee on engine..... Nice bill for Xmas. .



I could just here you guys scream if you got a bad batch of diesel from us, that is the reason we check our product, quality assurance. After reading this thread, I am going to have a rough time trying to get that bio spout in my truck... . Right now we have the best fuel! It may not be the cheapest, but it is the best... You can bad mouth big oil all you want boys, but remember what the rest of the world is paying for diesel right now. Just say thank you. . :-laf You can put the blame for your high prices on your government, and on your local jobbers, but the big boys have been checked out by everyone. .

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/eibessential/taxes_and_government/there_is_no_gouging.guest.html

 

[tgordon]

Obert, I plan to fill her up! Oo. It has a d335. (Now we will see how well anyone here know these old monsters) Once the $ allows I am simply going to rebuild the whole engine and then I will do some work with operating it on WVO. CJ I found a place that does the testing but they do not list costs online, do you know what the test cost out of curiosity? As for fun I grew up with a TD6 drott and that was fun on its own but this is going to be a little different for me.



Champane, what conditions are those engines operating in? what is the recomended overhaul hours on those engines? This engine operates out in the fields with the dust and I belive they recomend the engines be overhauled more often due to the contaminates that it is more likely to encounter. This is also like comparing a 3208 cat in a boat and one in a truck. Both operate at differant levels on differant conditions and the 3208 in a boat is fine, but in a truck or piece of farm equipment they are a joke if you can even keep them from blowing to pieces.



Basically one must compare apples to apples not apples to potatos. Hey, who is complaining about bad fuel? We only had gelling problems on the deere not the internationals and they were filled out of the same tank. The gasoline was added to the tractor tank and not the storage tank. We delt with it because it is a factor of the engineering of the tractor not the fuel, just in case you think I am blaming our problems on the fuel quality.



Yes my MIL swears I suffer from ADD, oh well I can deal with it, can the rest of the world?

 

[cj hall]

tests

Not sure of the cost of the tests.

I can find out.

off to get oil temp is 51 degs life is good.



will post later

 

[DBond]

CBond reply to your question re ratio 1BTU to 1 1/3 was in a technical paper regarding alternative scorces of energy, can't quote Page, Chapter and Verse.

DJW

Your original post you said that "the simple fact of the matter is, according to the best minds on the subject,-- using accepted farming practices of today, it takes 1 1/3 BTUs to produce 1 BTU of product... "

But you don't know who these "best minds" are. You don't say if you are talking about biodiesel, ethanol, or something else.

There are several major studies on this, and the only one I have heard of that says that biodiesel doesn't have a positive energy balance is the infamous Pimentel and Patzek paper.

As far as "accepted farming practices of today" Pimentel and Patzek used 15 year old farming info when 3 year info is available. That's not "today".

Keep in mind also that the petro fuels DO have a negative energy balance, it takes energy to pump, transport, refine the petro so only around 80-85% of the energy ends up at the pump. And that's for conventional crude, if you are talking about Canadian tar sands or coal to liquids, it takes much more energy to produce. Future fossil sources will have lower energy balances, while bio fuels will continue to higher energy balances as crops and processes for this young technology develope.



I will quote page chaper and verse;

NREL/SR-580-24089 Life Cycle Inventory of Biodiesel and Petroleum Diesel page 15 (a USDOE / USDA study)

"Biodiesel uses 0. 3110 MJ of fossil energy to produce one MJ of fuel product; this equates to a fossil energy ratio of 3. 215. In other words, the biodiesel life cycle produces more than three times as much energy in its final fuel product as it uses in fossil energy. "

 

[DBond]

DJW you seem to know how much energy it take to get the alternative power, but nobody has ofered up numbers on how much it takes to get the conventional to maket, any takers?????

NREL/SR-580-24089 Life Cycle Inventory of Biodiesel and Petroleum Diesel page 15 (a USDOE / USDA study) says



"Petroleum diesel uses 1. 1995 MJ of fossil energy to produce 1 MJ of fuel product energy. This corresponds to a fossil energy ratio of 0. 833710. "



AKA 83. 4%,

 

[DBond]

It only takes one gallon of gasoline in one thousand to lower the flashpoint of diesel to atmospheric,

You use the term atmospheric. I have always heard flash point as a temperature, that's what the ASTM biodiesel spec gives. Can you explain what this atmospheric means?

 

[obert]

... But, 10,000 hours is 416 days, for a diesel that is relativly low use...

Sure... . in a vrey controlled environment, constant load, constant speed.

For an ag diesel thats a heck of alot of hours. A poorly maintained engine will never see that, and the air filter, not fuel, is usualy the critical piont. Dad had a massivly over fueled IH 806 (convertet to 1206), was burning a gallon of oil to the tank of fuel at 10k hrs. New rings, a good hone on the cyl's was all it needed on tear down. Crank still std and bottom bearings all in spec. On the other hand Ive overhauled an engine at work with only 1200 hours. Inside it looked like 12000 hours. Air filter miss use was cause and warranty denied. If the 4850 had gas pains :-laf , it would have shown a long time ago. Didnt that have a Stanadyne pump? they tend to be pretty reliable and handle the abuse of the farm.

I plan to fill her up! Oo.

Should be sam as the WD9, 7/8 of a gallon. Better use more than 875 gallons to keep up the flash point

 

[Champane Flight]

Atmospheric

You use the term atmospheric. I have always heard flash point as a temperature, that's what the ASTM biodiesel spec gives. Can you explain what this atmospheric means?

Atmospheric is the outside temperature. If the temp of test room is 68' that is the flashpoint. Instant falsh is another way of putting it.

 

[Champane Flight]

Agreed...

Sure... . in a vrey controlled environment, constant load, constant speed.

For an ag diesel thats a heck of alot of hours. A poorly maintained engine will never see that, and the air filter, not fuel, is usualy the critical piont. Dad had a massivly over fueled IH 806 (convertet to 1206), was burning a gallon of oil to the tank of fuel at 10k hrs. New rings, a good hone on the cyl's was all it needed on tear down. Crank still std and bottom bearings all in spec. On the other hand Ive overhauled an engine at work with only 1200 hours. Inside it looked like 12000 hours. Air filter miss use was cause and warranty denied. If the 4850 had gas pains :-laf , it would have shown a long time ago. Didnt that have a Stanadyne pump? they tend to be pretty reliable and handle the abuse of the farm.



Should be sam as the WD9, 7/8 of a gallon. Better use more than 875 gallons to keep up the flash point

These engines are placed in some very harsh climate conditions, they have very low rpms from 400 to 800, and run twenty four seven, for weeks at a time. Loads do vary with viscosity of fuels in pipeline. They were converted from diesel to propane and natural gas around thirty five years ago. Our mechs keep a close eye on them, and they do get scheduled maint, but they still shell turbos, cylinders, heads, pistons, rod bearings, and even mains, from time to time.



I am saying luck has a lot to do with anyone getting away with gasoline in their fuel, there a lot of misinformed people out there. I drove with an old boy who would put transmission fluid and gas in his truck tanks once a month. The old detroit ran for 3-400,000 miles with no problems. He traded it for a new Pete with a 3406 Cat, the Cat did not like his brew, and shelled at 50,000. Cat gave hime the benefit of a doubt and overhauled it on warrantee. The second time however was on his dime! He discontinued the ATF and gas after that.



I am sure Deere puts a "Farmer factor" into its tractors... :-laf

 

[MMiller]

Well, I read the start of this topic, and it takes into account all the fuel used for the entire crop, planting, harvest, trucking, and IMO that is a mute point, as all the fuel will be used the same whether its for fuel or food. Up until the crop shows up to the ethanol plant, or the biodiesel plant, all the fuels used to that point would be used anyway.



Everybody is forgetting that this is indeed helping the American Farmer, he is finally getting a decent price for his product. Then the government subsidies will go down, as the farmer will be making some money again. Them boys up in Chicago(Board of Trade) are finally having to pay for the crop farmers grow, because there is some competition for the crop. Also, when we sell our corn overseas, how much fossil fuels does it take to get a bushel from central Iowa to China? I'm betting a lot more then taking a load to my local ethanol plant were everything stays local, I get paid more for the crop, and the left overs get fed at the neighbors cattle lot. Anybody in any test figure that yet? Didn't think so.



FWIW, I agree and understand the math that we can't grow enough crop to fuel the country, but we are actually doing something now to try. Solar energy has been being worked on for years and years and years, and its still not mainstream. Other things have been tried, and not pursued. We're all just going to have to face the fact that since the Oil cytoons still have oil to sell and are making piles of money, that nothing else will become mainstream, because they won't let it. When we definatly run out of oil, then we'll come up with something else cheap to burn in out engines. Just my $. 02... ... .



Michael

 

[DBond]

...

I get paid more for the crop, and the left overs get fed at the neighbors cattle lot. Anybody in any test figure that yet? Didn't think so.

... Michael

Most studies assign some % of the energy used to the by-products that are sold, such as animal feed. And this ends up being one of the more disputed issues, how much of the energy is credited to the fuel and how much to the by-product.

 

[Champane Flight]

Takes time...

Well, I read the start of this topic, and it takes into account all the fuel used for the entire crop, planting, harvest, trucking, and IMO that is a mute point, as all the fuel will be used the same whether its for fuel or food. Up until the crop shows up to the ethanol plant, or the biodiesel plant, all the fuels used to that point would be used anyway.



Everybody is forgetting that this is indeed helping the American Farmer, he is finally getting a decent price for his product. Then the government subsidies will go down, as the farmer will be making some money again. Them boys up in Chicago(Board of Trade) are finally having to pay for the crop farmers grow, because there is some competition for the crop. Also, when we sell our corn overseas, how much fossil fuels does it take to get a bushel from central Iowa to China? I'm betting a lot more then taking a load to my local ethanol plant were everything stays local, I get paid more for the crop, and the left overs get fed at the neighbors cattle lot. Anybody in any test figure that yet? Didn't think so.



FWIW, I agree and understand the math that we can't grow enough crop to fuel the country, but we are actually doing something now to try. Solar energy has been being worked on for years and years and years, and its still not mainstream. Other things have been tried, and not pursued. We're all just going to have to face the fact that since the Oil cytoons still have oil to sell and are making piles of money, that nothing else will become mainstream, because they won't let it. When we definatly run out of oil, then we'll come up with something else cheap to burn in out engines. Just my $. 02... ... .



Michael

You are correct Mike, countrys like Brazil started a alternative fuel program thirty years ago are finally paying dividends now. They are not depending on any foriegn fuel sources.

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?ID=16668



Corn is not the most efficent crop to produce ethanol, and there is some talk about a methanol fuel program, interesting because of the source of methanol can be any organic!

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article:Methanol_--_Ethanol's_Sister_Product



Bio diesel sources are expanding by the day, here is an interesting article.

#ad


That website also has some yeild factors for different crops...

 

[tgordon]

Thank you Mr Bond, so I ask everyone else which is more efficiant? Nice to see some other ag related people on here. Yes it is the same odd ball engine as the early WD9's. The ingection pump of choice for deere on the 466's was a Bosch or Nippendenso, and I belive it has a Nippy as I call'em.



MM I agree with you completely and here in MI where the second largest, and if automakers don't turn around soon will be the largest industry, is ag that makes a huge difference.



Champane, your link only took me to a picture, but you can try this one that also discusses the molecular charictaristics of the different oils also.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html



The controlled env. he is refereing to is that they do not operate in the middle of a cloud of dust 90% of the time at 90% plus load. I have seen the same engines pump manure and when you change the oil it is a lot cleaner than when it is on a tractor. A air filter can only remove a certain amount of contaminates before it chokes the engine. Were those engines rebuild before the conversions? If I recall correctly LP and Natural gas are a shorter chain and burn a lot cleaner causing a lot less problem on the engine's internal components, and once again puts an even greater distance between what you are trying to compare. As for the first article I belive I mentioned that earlier in this thread, but I guess since I am not a reporter, just some farm hick why would you listen to me.

 

[Champane Flight]

Not the enemy....

Thank you Mr Bond, so I ask everyone else which is more efficiant? Nice to see some other ag related people on here. Yes it is the same odd ball engine as the early WD9's. The ingection pump of choice for deere on the 466's was a Bosch or Nippendenso, and I belive it has a Nippy as I call'em.



MM I agree with you completely and here in MI where the second largest, and if automakers don't turn around soon will be the largest industry, is ag that makes a huge difference.



Champane, your link only took me to a picture, but you can try this one that also discusses the molecular charictaristics of the different oils also.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html



The controlled env. he is refereing to is that they do not operate in the middle of a cloud of dust 90% of the time at 90% plus load. I have seen the same engines pump manure and when you change the oil it is a lot cleaner than when it is on a tractor. A air filter can only remove a certain amount of contaminates before it chokes the engine. Were those engines rebuild before the conversions? If I recall correctly LP and Natural gas are a shorter chain and burn a lot cleaner causing a lot less problem on the engine's internal components, and once again puts an even greater distance between what you are trying to compare. As for the first article I belive I mentioned that earlier in this thread, but I guess since I am not a reporter, just some farm hick why would you listen to me.

They are loaded 24/7, maybe not at ninety percent 24/7, but anywhere from 65 to 95. Operating in a cloud of dust is a concern just as it is with these engines, sometimes large dust storms come through the locations. We used to have oil bath filters in place, now we have paper element. I am sure you can compare the two, hours of operation are hours of operation, when you consider or compare 2-300,000 to ten thousand, well?



I will try that site again. .





http://www.biodieseltechnologiesindia.com/