bosch recomendations for lubricity

[Matt400]

Hey Andy,

Those are good points but if you use something like PS that is specifically made for the job its only 2 bucks per tank, you get a Cetane increase and cleaning agents for the injector tip .

 

[tschwab]

Gary - where do you get the Cummins stuff? Got a part number? I've never seen that on their website.



kry - I, too, paid close attention to the "Stanadyne interest"... didn't find their stuff mentioned anywhere, though.



-Ryan

Ryan,



You can get the Cummins Premium Plus through any Cummins repair facility. I have seen it at Cummins NW in Renton, WA.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Beings as I'm a belt PLUS suspenders kinda guy, I use BOTH PS *and* ashless 2-stroke oil in EVERY tank of fuel, mixed 50/50...



OVERKILL where VP-44's are concerned, is a GOOD thing!

 

[The Lockguy]

Beings as I'm a belt PLUS suspenders kinda guy, I use BOTH PS *and* ashless 2-stroke oil in EVERY tank of fuel, mixed 50/50...



OVERKILL where VP-44's are concerned, is a GOOD thing!

Now that would make good sense to me but, why don't you hear of more people doing somthing like that. I think that would be less expensive than replacing a VP44, don't you?

 

[Matt400]

Fuel Quality Testing

Now if the folks at Fleetguard included the HFRR index it would be kinda cool to send off some samples of your local suppliers, check this out:



http://www.fleetguard.com/fleet/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/CC2631.pdf

 

[Alan Reagan]

The local Pump and Turbo shop is an authorized Bosch service center. The owner strongly recommends the use of additives. I don't want to get hammered because of naming specific products, but his experience is that without an additive that lubricates and protects against corrosion, if water happens to get to the pump, the pump will be ruined. Additives protect against that. Also, additives help keep injectors clean. If you are going to use additives, don't just use injector cleaner. Lubricity, corrosion and cleaners plus additives that help prevent gelling and improve cold weather starts are what the pump guy recommends.

 

[rbattelle]

The local Pump and Turbo shop is an authorized Bosch service center. The owner strongly recommends the use of additives. I don't want to get hammered because of naming specific products, but his experience is that without an additive that lubricates and protects against corrosion, if water happens to get to the pump, the pump will be ruined. Additives protect against that. Also, additives help keep injectors clean. If you are going to use additives, don't just use injector cleaner. Lubricity, corrosion and cleaners plus additives that help prevent gelling and improve cold weather starts are what the pump guy recommends.

Lots of pump service centers say this. If you look at the pictures at the Stanadyne website, for example, they certainly seem to indicate that trucks with additive do much better. So why does the Dodge owners manual specifically state that a fuel additive is not necessary if you buy quality diesel fuel? It's like neither Cummins nor Dodge want to just take a stand and say "we think US diesel fuel is junk, you should have an additive".



-Ryan

 

[Alan Reagan]

I agree with you Ryan. The problem is getting the quality diesel fuel. Not knowing how "fresh" it is, if there is water, algae, or whatever. Plus, years ago I worked on a tank farm where diesel and gasoline was stored. We used to "pull the bottom" off the tanks by draining the condensation and crud. First would come the water, maybe 1000 gallons. Then this black goo would follow. It smelled like sulphur and dead fish. Finally, we would get to the fuel. The pumps pushing fuel to the loading racks take suction near the bottom of the tanks. Occasionally they would pull that black goo. So that's in the bottom of the station tanks. I know because we've had to store fuel pumped out of gas station tanks in our slop tanks until it could be disposed off. It was always a mixture of gas or diesel with water and crud.

 

[CORed]

I occasionally run Stanadyne, but the last 3 tanks I have started running B20 full-tank or a half tank mixed with standard diesel. After reading about all the lubricating and cleaning properties of Biodiesel, it seems to me that I only need an additive if the temps are very, very cold to keep from gelling. Otherwise, from what I read, the Biodiesel is providing what an additive is. Just based on my own thoughts.



Oh, and since Biodiesel is more expensive, I'm still paying for these benefits - nothing is free I guess.



Any comments?

 

[rbattelle]

I occasionally run Stanadyne, but the last 3 tanks I have started running B20 full-tank or a half tank mixed with standard diesel. After reading about all the lubricating and cleaning properties of Biodiesel, it seems to me that I only need an additive if the temps are very, very cold to keep from gelling. Otherwise, from what I read, the Biodiesel is providing what an additive is. Just based on my own thoughts.



Oh, and since Biodiesel is more expensive, I'm still paying for these benefits - nothing is free I guess.



Any comments?

I *WISH* I could run B20, but alas it's not available anywhere near here. In fact, the closest station offering Biodiesel is 35 miles away and only offers B2. Once B20 becomes more widely available, the need for an additive may decrease. At least, if I could get B20 I wouldn't worry at all about adding anything to it.



Alan - very educational comments... makes you think twice before filling up!



-Ryan

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

It sounds like the willingness/ability of individual stations and major distributors to properly monitor and correct the sludge/contaminent levels in their storage tanks varies widely. Probably due to the intelligence and quality of the help available at those places at any given point in time, plus the pay scales involved in those jobs... Try asking the typical station attendant what the cetane rating is on the diesel fuel he is pumping into yer tank, and see the blank stare you get from him!



You would think the available technology would allow and encourage the use of AUTOMATED monitoring of contaminent and sludge levels in storage tanks, and allow for that stuff to be automatically purged into sludge storage tanks for proper disposal or recycling, rather than trusting in low-pay mortals to do it manually, risking pumping garbage into customer vehicles.



All the above points up my frequent comments as to the much ballyhoo'd and anticipated switch to the new lower sulphur diesel fuel just around the corner, and the prospect of some of those dandy European and other foreign diesel vehicle that we are currently not seeing here due to our poorer quality fuels. But I gotta tell ya, the BEST fuel in the world is NO better than the storage and transport containers used - and UNLESS far greater controls are installed and enforced on our shores, that dandy new fuel will be of little real advantage!

 

[tschwab]

The local Pump and Turbo shop is an authorized Bosch service center. The owner strongly recommends the use of additives. I don't want to get hammered because of naming specific products, but his experience is that without an additive that lubricates and protects against corrosion, if water happens to get to the pump, the pump will be ruined. Additives protect against that. Also, additives help keep injectors clean. If you are going to use additives, don't just use injector cleaner. Lubricity, corrosion and cleaners plus additives that help prevent gelling and improve cold weather starts are what the pump guy recommends.

Alan - I just sent you a PM (Private Message). BTW - You won't get hammered by fellow TDR members for naming a specific product. Actually - the reason for my PM is to find out what they reccomended. You can PM the info or just post it here.



Thanks - Terry

 

[Matt400]

CA Chevron HFRR & Cetane index

I was curious about the HFRR and Centane index in our area so I sent them an email. Here is what they had to say:

Thank you for your inquiry. It has been forwarded to us here at

ChevronTexaco Fuels Technical Service.



We speak only for Chevron fuel.



Chevron's Low Sulfur Diesel No. 2 as sold at Chevron service stations

will be below the HFRR maximum 520 micron wear scar as required by the

HFRR (High Frequency Reciprocating Rig) test.



The Cetane Number of the same fuel will never be below 40. 0. The actual

number could be much higher. For instance, the typical Cetane Number for

the fuel out of Chevron's Richmond CA refinery is 52. 8. A "typical"

value is merely an average, so it must be used with care. Any one batch

could vary. It would, however, never be less than 40. 0.

Sounds pretty vague... I was expecting a specific number, I haven't been using any additive and that reply while it was prompt makes me feel like a roll of the dice!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Sounds pretty vague... I was expecting a specific number, I haven't been using any additive and that reply while it was prompt makes me feel like a roll of the dice!"



EXACTLY my point - and if they're that vague and uninforned at the head office, what can we expect further on down the chain? After all, we SURE would be screaming if the octane rating of gasoline varied by 12 or more points - WHY do we accept even LARGER percentage a variance in our diesel fuel?

 

[kscheffler]

Gary: What Amalgamated product are you using for a fuel additive. I have also used amalgamated since 2k miles; I am only at 30 and will pull my injectors this summer so It will be interesting to see what they look like. I am on the road right now so I do not have access to my amalgamated can to identify my blend. I was interested in what you are using.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Gary: What Amalgamated product are you using for a fuel additive"



I dunno which Gary that was aimed at, but I use a 50/50 mix of PS Diesel Kleen (silver bottle) at EVERY fill-up... .

 

[CMckee]

additives

i have been using an additive in mine since i bought it 2 years ago with 180,00km's on it. it is called SUPER DIESEL PLUS made by lubetech here in calgary. better mileage, no smoke,no gelling,pump lube and clean fuel system. check them out at http://www.lubecorp.com/ . took me up to 36 mpg hwy from 26.

 

[RFrisch]

I have been using LDL (Longer Diesel Life) , $10 from NAPA, on both of my '04. 5 4X4s, and It says it has lubricity agents, cleaners, and is safe for every tank. Each $10 bottle treats 8 tanks (I think, maybe 10). Anyone else ever used/heard of this additive?

 

[DDahl]

I sent Power Service an email concerning the lubricity issues above and what to expect from additives. I am including the text of my questions and Brian's responses because I think many of you will find the information informative and useful:



From: David Dahl

Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 9:06 PM

To: Power Service

Subject: Power service fuel conditioner -- lubricity improvement



Dave: I have a question about lubricity improvement with PS conditioner. Assume that I use the double dose rate -- recommended for max cetane increase and faster injector cleaning. Assume also that the low sulfur diesel fuel conforms to being slightly below an HFRR of 520 for lubricity. What should I expect the HFRR of this fuel to be with the double dose rate treatment with PS diesel conditioner.



Brian: ASTM D6079 establishes HFRR 520 as the official lubricity standard for fuel across the USA and technically took effect January 1, 2005. This standard will be official when the 2005 edition of D975 is published which will be around the third week of February. Some states will start enforcing the new standard (law) Jan 1st while others have stated that they will give the fuel suppliers a grace period before enforcement of the new standard.



Brian: I cannot give you exact numbers but I can do almost as well. All of the following are fuels from late 2004 which have not had lubricity added at the refinery and do not meet the new standard. We have been conducting lubricity testing on various fuels to determine how to approach the lubricity problem. For example, we took Amoco fuel out of Whitting, IN and it had a HFRR of about 700 micron wear scar. When we single treated the fuel with Diesel Fuel Supplement (DFS) with Slick Diesel the HFRR was 400 micron wear scar. We tested Phillips out of East Chicago and before treatment with DFS the HFRR was 710 micron wear scar and after treatment it was HFRR 440. We took Marathon out of Hammond, IN before treatment HFRR 560 micron and after treatment it was HFRR 435 micron. With a single treatment all samples were below the required HFRR 520 wear scar. If you were to double treat these fuels all of them would be below HFRR 380 wear scar. No other additive on the market, which we have tested, will do as well and many that we tested were not even close to these numbers.



Brian: An important note is that these fuels were last year’s fuels. If you take these same fuels since the HFRR 520 wear scar lubricity standard has taken effect and single treated them with our DFS with Slick Diesel they would all be below the HFRR 380 wear scar. BOSCH's study showed that HFRR 380 was very acceptable since it was know to prevent lubricity field problems. They also noted that Common-rail and Rotary pumps require the same level of lubricity. They were hoping that the new lubricity specification to be adopted would not exceed HFRR 460 micron wear scar. As it turns out they didn't get what they wanted.



Dave: This is very important to me because Bosch recommends and HFRR of below 460 (ideally 380 or so) for long life with common rail injection systems. The HFRR of 520 is what oil companies like Chevron will guarantee (sort of) for their fuel at the pump.



Brian: BOSCH did a lubricity study in February 2003 and in their sampling they claim that 80% of the fuels they tested were >460 micron. BOSCH said that the HFRR 450 micron was borderline lubricity and that they preferred a HFRR 380 micron standard. To BOSCH, Stanadyne, Siemens, Denso Corp. and Delphi HFRR 520 is not adequate to protect fuel pumps (Rotary and Common-rail). Don't forget that injectors will also greatly benefit from the increased lubricity standard. Chevron will guarantee the HFRR 520 only because it is law, not because they want to be a better fuel than say Exxon.



Dave: Incidentally, I have used PS for the last 9 years on my 96 Dodge Cummins pickup. It seemed to really improve the running consistency of the engine. However, my new 2005 Dodge has a common rail engine and I want to make sure the lubricity is appropriate for a long lived injection system. Since the US has no serious lubricity standards for Diesel, unlike the EUC, each owner is really on their own in this matter.



Brian: I have a 1998, 12-valve Dodge and it makes a difference when I don't treat the fuel. I would suggest that you use our Diesel Fuel Supplement during the winter months and in the non-winter months use the Diesel Kleen. Diesel Kleen does not have an antigel, however it has more detergents and Cetane Boost which will greatly benefit your truck. It has the same lubricity Slick Diesel package so no problem there. Diesel Kleen will give even more emissions reductions and give better fuel economy and engine performance.



Best regards,



Brian Wilson

(800)643 9089

-- email address removed --

Technical Support

Power Service Products, Inc.

 

[Matt400]

DDahl,

Thanks for sharing that conversation.