Building a shop need advice

[esommer2500]

My $0. 02



I pour concrete for a living, but end up getting stuck building a barn or two on the side.



As far as the floor goes, the better base you have, the more you MINIMIZE cracking. All the fiber and rebar in the world won't help with some decent frost heave. As stated, the only way to keep concrete from cracking is to leave it in the truck. My preferred method includes taking all topsoil off and getting down to decent earth and putting a vapor barrier down followed by at lest 6 to 10 inches of good stone. Since you are going to be heating the floors, as suggested already, 2" rigid foam is a good idea to make sure your heat is going into the floor instead of the ground and give you a place to staple your heating lines to. Make absolutely sure you block out all areas that you even think you might have to bolt to or disrupt the concrete for any reason, you don't want to try to work around the lines running in the floor. Honestly, we have had mixed results with floor heating in shop areas, it often gets quite a bit more expensive to heat than is initially indicated. Thickness depends on intended use, but it sounds like you are going to have some weight in there, so probably 5-6" is a safe bet. Wire mest is a waste. If you feel you need more reinforcement beyond the fiber, built rebar mats 4' OC out of #3 bar. (Wire mesh is rarely kept at it's intended height in the thickness of the floor, and is mostly only good for tripping the finishers while placing. ) Saw cuts are better than grooved joints. A high quality sealer will be your best friend, applied the day of or after the pour. A nice 12' trench drain about 16" wide is what we put in most shop floors centered in the larger door. We form it to recieve a 2" thick expaned metal lid at floor height. We also taper the door openings 3/4" about 16" from the form to make sure that no water will get under the door. A large apron in front of the OH doors is also handy (12-20' out) Shop around for a GOOD concrete man with lots and lots of experience. Concrete is a tricky animal, and a less than desirable floor diminishes the whole shop.



Hope this helps any.



Eric

 

[SMorneau]

Thanks for the info.



The spot for the building will need to be prepared. It is on a slight grade that varies about 24 or so inches in the diagonal direction of the building. One of the reasons I was reluctant to build on a slab with no footings is because I will have to disturbt the ground and I thought that might effect the concrete and how well it stays put. The soil is sandy and digs easily it also packs down very densly just by watering down well. As stated earlier I can't handle the expense of frost footings. Concrete is expensive and were talking about going down 48" to be effective.



The 2 post lift with a truck on it will be the most demanding thing, concrete wise, that I will have on the floor. Would it be good to rebar where the lift is going to go?



Would it be worth my time to rent a tamper and pound the ground down good while it is damp? Frankly frost heaves don't seem to be much of a problem in the sand. Should I haul in some class 5 or is packed sand sufficent? If so, can I get by with the class 5 just where soil added and not where it was skinned down?





Sounds like I might be able to swing a 35x40x16 barn. It will have eaves and ridge vents, two overhead doors on a 40 ft endwall a couple of windows and a service door. The 16' height will give me about 15' inside which is ample for a lift and a 14' overhead door. It would also allow me to put in a small loft for storage over the bench area area which could have an 8' ceiling (easier to light really well) leaving enough head room upstairs for me to stand upright. Funding will probably require that I have the site prep done and the building put up, with the interior finished in metal. At that point it may be fall before I can afford the concrete work. In the mean time I can continue to water down and pack the sand (maybe a little help from the CTD). I will also put in the electrical panel.



I'll probaby wait for the slab to be finished and then borrow some scaffolding to do the lighting and drops. I can handle a ladder for maintenance but not for the initial install. May have to wait for late fall to do it right with the lighting, which is a must for my eyes.



I am also going to make sure there is a spot in the wall for an AC unit and framed opening in the ceiling for a whole house fan. I like the whole house fans because they ventilate the attic as well as exhausting the work area. I will have to build an insulated cover I can close with to seal it up from the inside so I won't lose to much heat.





Thanks again, more comments welcome. Hopefully by this time next year I will be figuring out how many kegs I'll need to host a MNTDR GTG.



Scott

 

[QRTRHRS]

If your not sure about what to do with your soil conditions, speak with a few of the local contractors. If you are required to have permits, then you should have a building inspector that may (or may not be) helpful. For a small project, there should be no need for an engineer. I don't know that a tamper will do much for you like a vibratory roller would.



A few years back, a coworker put a lift in. I believe the lift makers had specs on the concrete requrements.



I had about a dozen prices from various builders including Morton. In the end, I located a small Mennonite builder who built the barn I wanted and beat everyone else price wise while using top quality materials. It pays to ask around.



I bought three sets of scaffolding and three of those lightweight aluminum/plywood work decks. Pricey but I always wanted some anyway. It was the only way to realistically run my conduit and wiring. The mains run along the headers and feed the lights plus have drops to reach my horse stalls. The scaffolding was the "nuts". I loaded it up with my conduit and fittings so it doubled as a mobile work bench. I also rigged it up to hold all my spools of wire to feed up to the conduit.



Prepare yourself for sticker shock on wire and some related materials which have really climbed in price over the last year.



Make sure the buiding design includes adequate eave ventilation in addition to your peak vent. Metal clad buildings can have condensation problems. After the purlins were nailed down, my builder rolled out that ~1/4" thick material that looks like bubble wrap with aluminum foil on either side then screwed on the metal roofing. Only on wet days do I get drips from my translucent skylights. I see no indication of moisture between the foil and the metal. Don't forget ceiling fans to move the air around. Tek Supply 1. 800. 835. 7877 has reversable three bladed industrial quality fans made in Canada priced reasonably.

 

[SMorneau]

I am checking the local guys who specialize out. One of them is stopping by tonight to work thru some pricing and details. I wasn't aware of a big increase in wire cost but I am figuring about $2,500 for electrical including lights and fans with me doing the work.



I will contact the lift manufacturers for details and specifications. I am going to get what I want even if it means stretching this out over a year or even two. So I will have plenty of time to research things.



My neighbor can borrow some scaffolding and he also does in floor heat but not the concrete part. He has a Ford so he wants me, his buddy, to get a lift real bad.



Thanks,

Scott

 

[Tim1]

lots of good advise here, most I have done. Will add, put your man door next to your roll up door so as to save the wall space for benches. This way, when a rig is in the door for work, you can exit next to it through man door, learned this hard way. Insulate pole barn first off and use osb on inside for walls. Tim

 

[QRTRHRS]

Originally posted by Tim1

lots of good advise here, most I have done. Will add, put your man door next to your roll up door so as to save the wall space for benches. This way, when a rig is in the door for work, you can exit next to it through man door, learned this hard way. Insulate pole barn first off and use osb on inside for walls. Tim

OSB has a couple of negative aspects for interior walls. First is fire resistance. I would still use drywall under OSB. The second is outgassing. Use OSB and you are going to want to spray some paint on it asap.

 

[CumminsAholic]

If you're going to finish it off on the inside and heat it the tyvek would help, put it on between your tin and purlins. If only part of it's heated then it may not be worth it. I can see I was kinda misleading, we stick built our shop, that's why we used tyvek. We've never used it on a pole barn though because they're usually never finished off around here, if it's a pole barn it's almost always a dirt floor and no heat. If it's going to be heated then it's usually stick built. It may be kind of a pain to put on, but in the end I think it'd be well worth your time and $ to save on the heat bill later down the road.

Corey

 

[esommer2500]

The 2 post lift with a truck on it will be the most demanding thing, concrete wise, that I will have on the floor. Would it be good to rebar where the lift is going to go?

If you are buying a new lift, your supplier will more than likely give specifics for the concrete, including reinforcent, etc. Sometimes if the customer is going to have heavy equipment (class 8 trucks, etc) in the building, we will lay some bar down where the vehicle will track to the intended working area or lift. We'll also lay some bar in front of the overhead doors. I'm sure if you talk to any concrete guys with decent experience, they will have thier own suggestions for your application.

Would it be worth my time to rent a tamper and pound the ground down good while it is damp? Frankly frost heaves don't seem to be much of a problem in the sand. Should I haul in some class 5 or is packed sand sufficent? If so, can I get by with the class 5 just where soil added and not where it was skinned down?

In my opinion it would be wise to go overkill as possible on the subbase. The concrete on top is only as good as what is underneath it. I don't like sand for much more than sidewalks, so limestone or gravel (I don't know what class 5 is) compacted is what I would recommend. Again, your concrete guys should have suggestions of thier own.



OSB down here is approaching $30 per sheet.



Eric

 

[ddesau]

Pole Buildings

IF you decide on a size- go bigger 40 x 48 x 14ft eaves. I just got done with a 30 x 48 pole building and I wish I would have made it 40F.



I had the building insulated by the pole builders. And don't think you can get a stick built building for the same price you get a pole building for - can't happen. As it was with excavating- building-electric, pellet stove and garage door openers on 2 10 ft doors - 3rd door is 12ft was about $27K.



Was it worth it - absolutely my truck-camper-boat-2 atv's, 2 motorcycles and the wife's car stays inside - plus I have a good size work area. . Pole buildings are the ticket. .

 

[rholcom2]

Went to see one of my friends this weekend, and saw something cool in his shop. His pole barn is half living, half shop space. On the walls in the shop space he sprayed drywall texture on them then painted it with semi-gloss paint. On the walls with structure wood he went ahead and finished the joints like you would drywall. And you cant even tell its structure wood. Looks good!!! Just an Idea

 

[krs]

I might not need to say this but be careful if you're hiring parts of this out. The small ad guys often seem to be under experienced at estimating so they'll promise you the world and then not be able to deliver as promised. They could start nickle and diming you, making excuses and generally making your life miserable. Better to pay what seems like a higher price to a well established enterprise and get a smoothly done job on time and at the price quoted.



This is kind of a delicate thing for me to be posting about but experience makes me know how bad it can get when you're looking for bargains.

 

[SMorneau]

The plan is starting to shape up!



The wife is OK with a $30k budget and she knows the lift is not included! What a great wife I told her it was very cheap for a mid-life crisis and she responded, " I thought you already had your mid-life Chrysler". Cracked me up! Yesterday she was a little taken back when I showed her just how high a 40ft wide 16 ft sidewall building was.



I am going to go 40x40x16 (15. 5 inside height), 12" eaves on the front and sides, a service door, and two overhead doors all on the endwall. So far the two builders I have talked to are pretty close on the structure minus the doors with only the ceiling finished and no insulation, and no overhead doors is going to set me back about $17k. I will get a few more prices before I proceed I'd like to get it down about another thousand.



I also have to check on door prices to see if the 14' high door jumps me into some kind of expensive commercial door or what. If it does I will go with two 12' high doors.



After some reflecting on the advice given here I am going to rough in for a sink, shower, and stool. That way I can always add it later.



I consulted with a local excavater about site preparation and he is going to do it for about $1,000. He lives in the area and seems to have drainage and such in mind so I feel pretty confident he will do a nice job. He is going to use a pretty decent sized Cat so that should help pack it down. He also told me that it would pack nicely with some watering and he did not expect any problems with a slab. The guy is in his 60's so he got some experience with the local soil.



I am estimating about $3. 00/sqft for a concrete minus the foam and heating pipe, does that sound about right?



Anyway, I know this is going to be more expensive then I originally planned but I can't see myself ever regretting it. Now I just have to get it going before steel goes up in price again.



One more question; anybody thing the hidden fastener roofing steel is worth double the price? Anyone have problems with leaky roofs done with nails or screws?



Regards,

Scott

 

[QRTRHRS]

I think with pole construction, hidden fasteners are overkill. I had a few leaks initially but think about how many screws are in that roof and your bound to have a few. Think about it. Due to the make up of your purlins, some of the screws won't go in as easy as others and vise versa. The only builder who would fuss over every screw is you. My builder went up in the rain and then checked for proper washer compression. Must have worked as I see no leaks in the ~9 months my barn is finished.



Put that money towards the doors you want.



One thing you might consider is to have the builder lay "bubble wrap" insulation on your purlins prior to the metal. It will prevent most of the moisture associated with metal roofing. You don't need it on the walls. Even with your ceiling insulated, your going to have moisture up there. That's just the way metal roofing is.



By the way, I have 700 square feet of service rooms on uninsulated slabs. The rooms have six inch walls with insulation and are heated. The walls were framed against the outside purlins and insulated, no vapor barrier. I see no moisture problems.

 

[Andy Perreault]

Originally posted by SMorneau

Anyway, I know this is going to be more expensive then I originally planned but I can't see myself ever regretting it.

I think that's the key to it. "Do It Right the FIRST Time. " Imagine if you didn't, and every time you went out to your shop for the next X many years, you were unhappy about having to work in a shop that you don't like and there's nothing you can do about it.

I second the others advice about the 14' tall door. You may want to park a 5th wheel or motorhome in there someday, and many of the newer ones are pretty tall. I don't think you will someday be saying, "shoot, you know, I wish I would have gotten a shorter door. "

Have you considered adding some kind of skylights to cut down on the cost of lighting?

Andy

 

[DarrellB]

You have some really good suggestions in this thread. I built a 56'x32' Polebarn with 12' side walls 3 years ago and love it. I have 2 10'x12' overhead doors on the long side both with openers, and a 8'x32' porch on the end, and 16" overhangs all around. The overhangs are nice and keep the snow from falling right in front of the doors. The porch is great, it's really nice to be able to unlock the walk through door and not get wet when it's raining, and even better to sit under the porch in the summer and drink a few chilli ones.



My advise is to build as big as you can possible aford. You can never have too big of a shop. Also, go with a heavy concrete mix, I have 5,000psi mix in my building with fiber and rebar in it. My concrete guy actually used 1/2" rebar in the whole thing. The floor is also 18" think by the overhead doors for added strength. There is nothing more anoying to me than walking in a shop and seeing hudge cracks running up and down the floor so I was kind of anal on that part. Go with at least on floor drain if not 2. Stub in the water and poo pipe, you never know if you might want them later and hot water is nice to wash the grease and dirt off. I actually have an 8'x8' bathroom in mine with hot water. You need lots of good High Output flourecent lights. The HO light will come on istantlly in -20* temps. I put in 8-8' lights and 3-4' and I might be putting in one or two more. Also don't forget the lights for the outside for those late nights working. You need lots of outlets and at least a few 220's for welders and such. Have it insullated, both the roof and the walls.



Most of the other stuff can be added latter, like retractible cords and drop lights, the monster of an aircompressor, the $3,000 Matco toolbox, the who know's how much money worth of tools, the 300 watts of tunes, the TV, the fridge, the gun safe, the standard nude calander girls, lot's of shelving, workbench ('s), dog pillow, well I could go on but I'll do ya one better. When I get home in the AM I'll take a few pics and post them so you can see what I'm talking about.



I had just $13,000 in getting the building up, another $4,000 in concrete and labor, $2,600 in gravel to get the grade and drive, $2,100 in overhead doors and openers, $500 in labor for the electrician, and about another $500 in all the lights and electrical supplies. All in all I have close to $23,000 in just getting the building up and going. I'm not even gonna guess on the rest of the stuff in it though.



DB

 

[MPatrick]

shop door

SMorneau,



Sounds like you are getting some good advice.



I have a 50' x 60' aircraft hanger. The hanger has a large 40' x 13' door that gives me 11' vertical clearance.

The motor raises it in about 30 seconds.

The guy that had it built saved all of the invoices.

The invoice for this door was $4000, not including the assembly or installation. The door is massive. I might be missing an invoice, That price is great for a door that size.



Anyway, check this site out.



http://www.bifold.com/hangars/index.cfm

 

[DarrellB]

Here's one pic.



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There are 2 others in my Gallery of the inside the the barn.



DB